July 18, 2013 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #610111
This is for all the those who still believe that the state, the idf, and lapid have any and all care for yiddishkeit.
this could have taken place in nazi germany.July 18, 2013 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #966524rebdonielMember
They cut the peyot off the heads of little Temani children, as well.July 18, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #966525yichusdikParticipant
If you read the story, you would have seen that IDF regulations of course permit peyos and they were not compelled by policy to have them cut, but, if the report is accurate, by one rosho who should be kicked out of the army.
As I wrote in the comments below the story, it is a terrible irony that if these recruits had any familiarity with tzahal and bakum, like those, for example, learning in hesder yeshivos do, they would have been familiar enough to know its NOT IDF policy. What a ashame they didn’t have the kind of guidance that would have made such knowledge obvious, as it is to the rest of the religious Jews in the IDF.July 18, 2013 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #966526
yichusdik- thats a ridiculous tayna and you know it. how the heck are these kids supposed to know idf regulations? were they supposed to study the rulebook before being inducted by a bunch of lying scumbags. take your head out of the sand! the jewish army of the jewish state cutting off jewish payos! shikur vilo miyayin. you really have an agenda, eh?July 18, 2013 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #966527coffeeaddictMember
Actually Toi, you are the one with your head in the sand and so are the recruits who allowed their peyos to be cut. I don’t live in Israel but just from my occasional visits there, I can say I have seen numerous soldiers in uniform with nice long peyos.July 18, 2013 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #966528
caddict- its not about how naive the recruits were. i also see soldiers here every day with payos. the tayna still stands. maybe they thought that upon induction everyone has to undergo one headshvae. maybe they though the rules changed this year. maybe they were afraid of being court marshalled and thrown in jail for who knows how long in this anti-chareidi country. point is: jewish state, jewish army, bye bye jewish payos.July 18, 2013 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #966529yichusdikParticipant
Yes – my agenda is that young Jews should not be pawns for anyone, and that they should have all the information they need to make informed decisions.
Their parents, their rebbes, their chevre should not keep them so cloistered that when they make the admirable decision to go into the IDF, they are unaware of their rights and the army’s responsibilities.
When I was much younger, I seriously considered aliyah and service as a chayal boded. This was before the internet. I sought and found the information and resources I needed to know what benefits I was eligible for, what my responsibilities were, down to the extra 25 shekel a month for overseas phone calls. And I didn’t actually do it, and at the time I was not in EY. These boys live there, made the good decision to go, and had access to information in a manner more instant than I could have imagined at their age.
These young men were doubly vicitimized. They were victimized by the either wicked or idiotic barber and the barber’s CO, and they were victimized by too many people they depended on for guidance who encouraged ignorance of too many practical things.July 18, 2013 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #966530jewishfeminist02Member
I don’t think it’s productive to blame the soldiers for being naive. Whoever gave them these orders is an animal and doesn’t belong in the IDF. But come on, to say that the entire army is contaminated because of one idiot who will probably be fired? Any large organization has issues with rogue employees and has had to fire people at one point or another for acting out of line with policy. If we started boycotting every single institution based on the actions of one employee we would not be able to function as a society. If you’re going to criticize the IDF, criticize policy or widespread facts on the ground. Don’t criticize it based on an isolated incident that really doesn’t reflect the army’s ideals as a whole.July 18, 2013 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #966531MCPMember
Perhaps instead of complaining that the army will force frum teens off the derech, time should be spent preparing them for the trials they will face instead of hiding them from the real world.
Just a thought.July 18, 2013 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #966532
oh pleaseJuly 18, 2013 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #966533Sam2Participant
Toi: I understand your Tayna. Here’s my question: Will you make another thread in defense of the IDF when (if this is proven true) the commander who made them do this is put in jail/fined for his actions?July 18, 2013 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #966534
Sam2- i dont think id make a thread. id wait for someone else to and then comment. to me this is a siman, not a sibah, so righting this one wont change anything bi’etzem. i only started this one because it is maddening to see the great meltin pot called the idf still wearing the emperors’ clothes.July 18, 2013 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #966535Derech HaMelechMember
To those who claim that this story shows how important it is that chareidim start a hesder program, look at what is happening.
The first step is that chareidim boys need to leave the koslei haMidrash for X amount of years altogether.
The second step is that once you are machriach them to go into the army, now you scratch off a little more learning from the years before the army in order to train the bochrim on how to go to the army.
The first two steps on the short path to shmad. Only took a few months.
Of course that doesn’t include the dangers of the “mistakes” that happen in the army. Whoops we cut off some peyos. Whoops we forced some bochrim to listen to kol ishah.July 18, 2013 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #966536WolfmanParticipant
I had been avoiding the CR in honor of The Nine Days and I return to find another in the long list of comparing Jews to Nazis. I am not defending the story described in the OP but the comparison to Nazism shows a complete lack of understanding the events of the Holocaust bordering on trivialization of the Holocaust.July 19, 2013 12:00 am at 12:00 am #966537rationalfrummieMember
You should know that armies have rules. In most armies of the western world, there is a rule that hair has to be a certain length and beards are a no-no. This is the rule in the United States as well- would you call the U.S. army comparable to the nazis chas v’sholom?!
In the United States, there have been a string of court cases about religious muslims and sikhs that want to keep their beards and most of the time they get to. However, it takes time to change the army’s rules. I hope Israel will change the rules, but you have to be patient. You cannot barge in and expect everyone to do everything you want at the moment you want it. What chutzpah.July 19, 2013 4:57 am at 4:57 am #966538
rationalfrummie- you miss the point.July 19, 2013 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #966539NaftushMember
Among the Dati Leumi, the IDF itself helps to prevent situations like these by allowing draft-age men to enroll in mechinot. The men reach the induction base knowing the rules and how to snip violations in the bud. They also have access to a vast body of halachic literature on coping with army situations.July 19, 2013 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #966540rationalfrummieMember
That’s a shtickel shvach, Toi.July 19, 2013 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #966541popa_bar_abbaParticipant
rationalfrummie- you miss the point.
Exactly.July 20, 2013 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #966542
rational- ill leave it to pba, i really hate typing; i stink at it.July 21, 2013 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #966543popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Toi: Thank you. But I’m not in the mood to argue with someone being “irrational” right now. The differences between those examples are huge and obvious. If Rational cares to discuss it, rational should point them out the huge differences and explain why they don’t make a difference. Then if I think there is any rational thought there, I’ll consider responding.July 21, 2013 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #966544HealthParticipant
MCP -“Perhaps instead of complaining that the army will force frum teens off the derech, time should be spent preparing them for the trials they will face instead of hiding them from the real world.
Just a thought.”
Here is another thought: I was thinking about trials (“trials” as in court cases for draft evading) ever since this new Gov. got into power with Lapid in and the Charedim out. I thought how will the Charedim get out of being drafted and not going to jail? But now I’m begining to see the probable light at the end of the tunnel. With the new ongoing peace talks -the present Gov. will collapse. There probably will be elections and whomever the next Gov. is – the Charedim will be part of it. They will join either the right or the left, with the stipulation of No Frum draft and reinstatement of money to Yeshivos. If they join the right then Israel won’t have to go back to the ’67 borders. If they join the left then Israel will go back to the ’67 borders.
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