No more kids divrei Torah before Avodim Hayinu

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  • #1959649
    Leyzer
    Participant

    It’s a machlokes where the Mitzvah of Sippur starts, either Avodim Hayinu or Mitechiloh, but certainly not before that.

    With that in mind, this year I’m gonna do what I always dreamed of, and ban my kids outright from saying any DT on any topic before Avodim Hayinu.

    Why oh why do the schools overload them with so many DT that are nothing to do with Sippur YM!?

    #1959697
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Explain by Avodim Hayinu all the kashyes they have on ho lachma.

    #1959686
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    You sound angry

    Which part of it do is getting to you, your kids or the Torah ?

    #1959673

    Leyzer, a very good point. Aren’t kids supposed to ask questions and adults answering?

    One thing that last several generations of kids are missing is curiosity. Schools give material in a way that encourages memorizing. It is not a just in the Jewish world. Everyone googles things now instead of analyzing or experimenting. We have most interesting discussion on Shabbos when we are limited to halakhot and world history that is in our minds and books. Why would someone ask “ma nishatana” if he could just look it up?! I think I’ll make this a point of discussion during Seder, thanks, Leyzer.

    #1959784
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I was listening tonight to the Siyum on Pesachim being livestreamed here on YWN by a group affiliated with Agudah. Several speakers spoke of how we have “squeezed out” or equivalent terms, the “joy” of pesach among our children by fixating on some of the minutiae of how we celebrate yetzias mitzrayim at the seder and not allowing children to be children. I can imagine kinderlach after this past year who might have learned a vert and are bursting with enthusiasm to share it with their family as the seder begins and there being shouted down to WAIT!!, NOT YET!! or OFF TOPIC!! Most parents would be thrilled if their kids were so anxious to share a DT at any point in the seder. I guess we just disagree.
    A gutten and kosher yom tove.

    #1959797
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    As much as they come prepared, there’s always the Mesorah and attitude that cannot be “taught” in school. And that, exactly that is what the night of Seder is made for. Give it over “as if you went out of Egypt”. It’s the manner, the excitement, the attitude that’s always going to stay with the child, years after all the peshatim are forgotten.

    Take the opportunity, grab as much as you can on this special night. One can relate to a child of any level … the four sons.

    And if I may add – the fifth one too, the one who does not come to the Seder at all. To him we say the Ha Lachma.. come and join.. no questions asked. Just come and join our party.. great food, you’ll enjoy it. And we don’t try to shove anything else at him…

    #1959903
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    everyone run the sder according to the minhag and misorah, our family for example does not talk out during the entire magid from halachma anya till goal yisroel even to say divray torah, so each to his/her own

    #1960080
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    My rav says often that by the Seder, he is the one who talks and if anyone has a comment or question they can ask, but zero divrei torah from anyone. All divrei torah from the kids are saved and said over by shulchan orech and by the day meals.

    #1960083
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    I once said a milsah d’bedichasah with the following taich:
    in the paragraph of the Chochom child he asks and asks and asks from his huge piles of notes that he brings to the Seder table, one dvar torah after another…”Mo ho’eidus v’hachukim, v’hamishpotim…etc”. Everyone is falling asleep trying to understand, fighting to stifle their yawns. One person though is beaming with pride: the father! Even if he doesn’t understand all of it, his nachas knows no bounds. Says the Baal Haggadah, “Af ata emor lo kehilchas hapesach, ein maftirin achar pesach afikoymon”. Have pity on the rest of the family! You too, tell the kid, that just like there’s no food after eating the afikoymon, one more dvar torah and you ain’t getting any supper tonight!

    #1960139
    Someday
    Participant

    Tell the kids to save all their divrei Torah on the Hagadah before Magid, for after Hallel, or for the day meals.
    Do not take away from them saying their complete notebooks. I even remember how much it meant to me 50 years ago. I remember my sister crying when she realized her mistake of saving half of her stuff for the “3rd and 4th Sedorim” of the last 2 days Pesach… 🙂
    Your kids are gold! Appreciate what you have!

    #1960174
    a pashute yid
    Participant

    You do that. But do not wonder why your kids do not find excitment in yideshkeit. By viewing it as a burden is the best way to make your kids have the same negative aditude as you. pretty stupid move.

    #1960176
    Leyzer
    Participant

    Unfortunately, I decided to give my wife and older kids a heads-up of my plan.
    They couldn’t have been more shocked than if I had told them I was converting to Islam.
    My wife was furious, raging furious, that I should have such a crazy idea.
    She even told me “if you dont listen to the kids’ DT, I wont come to the Seder”.
    Hmmm…sounds like a win-win

    #1960185
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    interesting most of your topic are trollish

    #1960211

    Everyone who says – this is my way/minhag to run seder – should actually read the Hagaddah. There are four sons – and each of them has a different personality, different questions and requires a different approach. So, unless you sent your kids to the same teachers and trained them to ask same questions or, lo aleinu, sit quiet, they are going to ask different questions and you will have to talk about afikoman halochos with some of them, get into teeth with the other, talk about feelings with the third, and make the fourth one interested …

    the two approaches offered above: let them read DT written by someone else or lecturing them – will, of course, make your life easier, but this is not what the seder is for.

    #1960292
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The seder is not for you but for the children for the year, instilling proper emunah and betochan in them, so you should be happy for their enthusiasm. If you are not careful, you will thwart their interest.

    #1960307

    RebE >> seder is not for you but for the children for the year, instilling proper emunah and betochan in them

    exactly, thanks for putting it this way. We actually rearrange everything in the house in order to trick them into starting to ask questions.

    #1960455
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Make them realize that Hashem leads the world and reward and punishment is in His hands as it indicates to say the Haggadah, when matza. the good and maror, the bad are infront of you.

    #1960487
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    How about focusing on the most important chinuch mitzvah of the year instead dishing out endless vertlach and pilpul

    #1960513

    So, if we actually fulfil the mitzva of helping kids ask questions and then attempt to answer, now the difficult part: what do you do when questions are uncomfortable – say, kids see inconsistency or hypocrisy on your behavior? or if you do not know the answer to the question and there is no internet to look up under the table? Do you say – I was wrong, I do not know, or try to come up with tirutzim?

    This is a teaching moment. Some seforim say it is important for parents to say “I do not know” in front of kids to model the right behavior.

    #1960622
    TGIShabbos
    Participant

    Leyzer, it sounds like you’d do better spending Seder night watching spring training baseball on TV. If the Seder night isn’t for children asking questions, then why put in the effort? Kick back, get into slippers, leave the TV on a timer, and get some great ballgames in. And, if you struggle to connect most divrei Torah to our beginnings as a nation by YM, then you have some more learning to do yourself. You can eat all the Matzah and Marror in the world, but after 120 you won’t be asked about how much per pound you spent on Matzah.

    #1960633

    TGI, I understood Leyzer bringing distinction between children asking questions and children reading school-prepared Divrei Torah. While the latter approach has a lot of value, does it prepare them to listen to their parents’ Torah or to dominate conversation with ideas brought from school? For some reason, Torah wants us to get together as a family unit. Maybe parents whose children come to the seder with answers instead of questions have an extra challenge – get kids raise from reading those stories to start asking questions.

    Is this the 6th son? We have 4 that eiher ask questions or stay silent. None of them have a hutzpah to lecture parents. Lubavichers add the 5th – who did not come. Modern schools/yeshivot (to separate from old yeshivot) added the 6th – the one how has answers and no questions.

    #1960833
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If you are not there to answer their questions, they will answer it themselves which you might not like.
    The Ksav Sofer explains that בעבור זה is used both for the sheina yodea lishol and the rasha. He says, be careful when he is young when he is not asking, not knowing when to ask, answering by themselves for not being listened to, in order that they should not become a rasha.

    #1960865

    RebE, thanks, a good point. Will try to answer ..
    related: Is rasha preferred to sheina yodea lishol – at least, he is asking

    #1961083
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, the chocom and rasha ask the exact same question just the motivation is different, the rasha asks questions and is a kofer b’ikar [ maybe omited in your hagada] torah values silence so the shinah yodah is valued more

    #1961128

    @common, – and rasha and she eino yodea get the same posuk as the answer .. they are clearly related (the source escapes me for a second, after all the cups).

    she eino yodea is treated arguably harsher than rasha. “opened up” v. “blunting teeth”? We tend to see the first as clearly figurative and second almost as literal. But if you look at them fairly – literally “blunting teeth” is probably a minor dental procedure while “opening up” sounds more like an invasive surgery… Furthermore, rasha is given a shocking answer that might lead him to a teshuva, while she eino yodea gets the same posuk, possibly with the same meaning, but he is not even shocked …

    there are lots of sympathetic views of the 4th son relating to people with no background, etc and they are great, of course – but peshat is: he is sitting with his learned father – he aint an orphan! – and still has no idea – or no interest – how to ask a question, despite all the tricks at the table, eating potatoes in a grotesque way, not counting days spent at school … what is wrong with him or his parents/educators?!

    #1961220
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Kids change and do so with a speed that is sometimes breathtaking. Over the years, the ones who were always silent or reluctant to question suddenly become a fountain of new ideas, thoughts, divrei torah and rhetorical questions. The ones who were bubbling over with verts from school they couldn’t restrain themselves from proudly “sharing” with the extended families gathered at the seder suddenly sat quietly contemplating whatever was going on their head at that moment. We’ve learned to just chill out (literally) and let the kids do whatever they feel like doing (within reason) and feeling truly gebenched that we have the mazal for another year of having most of the family together again (albeit on a somehwhat cold patio).

    #1961253

    GH, your chilling approach sounds reasonable, but I am not sure how to square it with the Hagada that seems to advise closely following and confronting children where they are instead of pushing it to the next year.

    #1961251
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Sometimes they don’t ask because they think they know everything which is dangerous. The Chasan Sofer explains the chacham not tzadik the opposite of rasha. They both seem to be excluding themselves. However the chacham behaves in clever fashion in order the rasha should reveal himself by thinking that he has a partner in crime, the chacham, saying you are a rasha as you exclude yourself, I am also a rasha.

    #1961285

    RebE, thanks for supporting the idea of the all-knowing, not-asking students. As I mentioned before, there is a worldwide google-induced decrease in curiosity, so we need to guard for this.

    Hafetz Haim brings a similar idea on Chacham being opposite to Rasha rather than Tzaddik in the context of his generation of haskala and trying to protect against it. He says (in probably a shocking for a “frum” person way): some say – you need to be frum, frum, and then klug (i.e. you need a double yirat shamaim to allow you access knowledge, otherwise it is too dangerous), and I am telling you: you should be klug, klug, and then frum. Hope you don’t accuse Hafetz Haim of open orthodoxy

    #1961304
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The holy Ohr Hachaim says on lo siso, don’t use Hashem’s name to elevate yourself by making yourself look frum. It says in the Chasan Sofer haggadah from my rebbi Rav Shmuel Ehrenfekd, the Matersdorfer Rav ztz’l on the pasuk E-l deos Hashem, where it is eaay to differentiate a tzadik and a rasha but when both utter the name of Hashem, we need daas, special understanding to differentlate who means it honestly or just to look good.

    #1961312
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Haflaah in Sefer Panim Yafos, Parshas Bo, says that a kashyeh comes from Heavenly Intervention, siata dishmaya. He gives a parable to a simple person who received a diamond. He did not know what to do with it but he liked gold. He goes to a goldsmith to cover it in gold. He was not the best expert, so he left some holes. The simple person only sees the gold but the smart person sees the diamond underneath the gold. The Chasam Sofer explains the means of being mechadesh something. All chidushim lie in the Torah hidden but they need to be revealed through a kashyeh. I explained according to this the comparison to the Torah the sweetening of the bitter well with a bitter tree. Sometimes someone learns a piece of gemora being so confused that he can’t even ask a kashyeh. He receives the siyata dishmaya and now he is able to ask a kashyeh but without an answer it is still bitter. When an answer comes to mind, it becomes sweet.

    #1961424

    RebE >Kashyeh comes from Heavenly Intervention,

    beautiful, thanks. In my technical study of Q&As, I once asked a Rav what is most important when answering someone’s question? His answer – it is most important to help a person clarify his question

    #1961514
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We find by a dayan that he has to clarify the arguments as Shloma Hamelech repeated each one of the women’s argument when claiming the baby. Similarly, we must be sure, before answering the question, that we understand the question we are answering.

    #1961676

    >> we understand the question we are answering.

    as with a guy who asked a shaila whether he can make arba kosot on milk. Rav gave him money for wine – and also for meat.

    #1961696
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ “as with a guy who asked a shaila whether he can make arba kosot on milk. Rav gave him money for wine – and also for meat.”
    That guy could have paskened on his own and not asked a shaila and used milk after all he may have read it on Rabbi Google that you can

    #1961790
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    common saychel, I don’t know the truth of this story but it will demonstrate the importance of intention. A rav was speaking about the churban of the Beis Hamikdesh and how Hashem misses the sacrifices. There was an am haaretz who heard this, so he tells his wife to bake two chalahs. He takes the chalahs and places it into the Aron Hakodah. A poor shames saw this and took it. The man comes back and sees that the chalahs are gone, so he thinks Hashem took his chalahs, spreads it around and he continues bringing the chalahs. The news travels around and Rav hears what he was saying. He obviously does not believe it and wants to see what is happening. He sees as the shames takes it. He tells the am haaretz, you think Hashem needs your chalahs, the shames took it. The Rav had a dream telling him, because you revealed this, you must die r’l as Hashem did not enjoy something as much since the destruction of the temple.

    #1961813
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @ Reb E and the common demoninator with your story and my comment is?
    That am ratzim pasken the own saylios? if thats the case I am 1000% in agreement with you.

    #1961822
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    common saychel, Sometimes doing something and not asking a shaila is greater than asking one if the intentions are honorable. An am haaretz might think to drink milk to commemorate the fact that Hashem sanctified us by giving us the Torah compared to mik and thereby not returning after three days by taking over our servitude from Pharaoh.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1961837
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We must know when to ask a shaila.

    #1961896

    My guy was not Am Haaretz, he was poor and tried to do the best with what he had without asking for tzedokah. Which is mentioned in Pesachim – Rabbi Akiva says that we give for 4 cups from the tamhui to every Jew. Why does he have to say that? Because it contradicts “make your shabbat k’hol” but do not ask for tzedokah.

    #1961895

    RebE, common, I am enjoying your comment, but maybe I should not have skipped the point of the story: the question about using milk made the Rav undersand that there will be no meat at the table.

    #1961923
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ,Exactly my point a Rav understands how to read between the lines if it means not wearing a mask or understanding that there is no meat at the table, I get it but you dont because you feel no need to ask a rav

    #1961986

    common, you got so stuck on me not asking the Rav. I even gave you examples but that did not help you. Call AAA. Interestingly, in a number of cases, I get an explicit opinion rather than psak. Is it experience of others also.

    For a fun shaila: a friend of mine dragged his pre-bar-mitzva son to a posek in Mattesdorf to resolve the problem of son not joining the father going to shul for mincha and continuing playing soccer with friends. The posek asked the kid – how long does it take to say mincha? do you think you could get off the field, say mincha and continue playing? The look on father’s face was precious. He eventually moved to a place where everyone goes to mincha and does not play soccer.

    #1962111
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    AAQ, you mention that story in three prior forums

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