No torah no jewish state

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  • #2116618
    Romain
    Participant

    I think that maybe the zionist state (ask rabbi)
    Could be considered jewish since minium halacha was being
    Kept for the last 20 years but now with lapid its not jewish anymore because
    No torah not jewish and
    By the way it also not jewish from 1948 untill 2000

    #2116834
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Minimum halacha has never been kept in Israel. The best we’ve gotten is the they allow us, usually, to keep halacha, but they’d love it if we didn’t. Shabbos isn’t kept nationally; just businesses are closed. Highways are open, as are things the government considers essential. Movies are open, too. Ben gurion told the chazon ish that his idea of oneg shabbos was pruning his garden, so how can you dictate “your” view, etc…sports games are played pn shabbos in stadiums.

    The army is mostly mixed. Toe’va people run proudly through the streets of yerushalayim. Schools don’t teach anything. The prime minister misquoted shema, saying hashem emet or something.

    They teach kids that the nation started in israel,and may or may not have been slaves in egypt, krias yam suf, matan torah, are all not necessarily true cv”s. David and golias? 100% true. Because it shows jewish might or whatever.

    The state was created to shmad jews. Rav chaim brisker said people think that the zionists want a state, and in order to have one you can’t be frum… it’s the opposite, they want a state in order to not be frum!

    #2116848
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    what with your margins, hard to follow what your posting.
    PS why are all your post about the same subject just in an other form

    #2116850
    ujm
    Participant

    Klal Yisroel needs more Yidden like Yishai Schlissel, who was moser nefesh for Torah in Eretz Yisroel.

    #2116862

    > The army is mostly mixed

    This argument sounds like hutzpa from the side that doesn’t generally serve, whatever good reasons might be for that

    #2116864

    I just read that Netziv put his shabbos clothes to accept a first bottle of wine from EY. that was at the time of early Zionists. What was his thinking about these issues?

    #2116868
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says ויתן להם ארצות גוים בעבור ישמרו חוקיו the land of other nations were given to them (us) to keep Hashem’s laws, so if we don’t keep the Torah, the land is not ours. The first Rashi says that Hashem took it away from the kenanim and gave it to us on the condition that we keep the Torah otherwise what makes us better than them?

    #2116874
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Joseph,

    What Halachic mandate did Yishai Schlissel have to kill and injure people on his knifing rampage? Which Beis Din appointed him to do so? And why do you get so excited when posting about violent behavior?

    #2116875
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    AAQ, and if he took wine (that was kosher) from an Arab farmer, would that mean he approves of him?

    #2116894
    ujm
    Participant

    Dofi: You must have asked the same questions on Pinchus.

    As a separate but related question, do you think Kanoim Pogim Bo is no longer applicable today?

    #2116901
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Kanoim pogim bo is a special halacha regarding bo’el aramis in public, stealing kli shareis, and cursing…. Hashem in the name of avodah zara (mishnah Sanhedrin 9:6) It doesn’t apply to other aveiros, including mishkav zachor, much less the support thereof.

    Any other aveirah, even worse aveiros than bo’el aramis(which if done without living together is only derabonon, as it happens to be) require due process and one is not allowed to kill the violators of them.

    Toeva parades need a strong, vocal opposition, but what schlisel did was murder. He was a murderer who, if taken to beis din, would have been put to death.

    It would be murder if he killed a child molester, murderer (after he killed, since before it would be a rodef case), mechalel shabbos, or anything else. If you see someone do a capital offense and kill him, it’s you who is the murderer. We have laws. We are obliged to keep those laws, even when we want to protest chilul Hashem.

    As to whether kanoim pogin bo applies today, see rema CM 425:4, which says that you need to warn the sinner first. Here, no warning was given.

    Kanoim pogim bo also has a lot of limitations. It has to be during the aveirah itself. It also needs to be done in front of 10 jews

    Also, if the sinner kills the kanoi in self defense, the sinner is not considered a murderer, because the kanoi has a din of a rodef(Sanhedrin 82a)

    Yerushalmi Sanhedrin 9:7 is also critical of kanoim pogim bo in general and says that chachamim wanted to put pinchos in nidui if not for the fact that Hashem was maskim to him.

    #2116965
    Romain
    Participant

    THE ZIONIST STATE MUST BE ABOLISHED !
    And replaced with a binational state they are the same thing

    #2117070
    Benephraim
    Participant

    I remember that in the Sfardishe shul in Boro Park, they had very prominent Rabbonim and Dayanim.Yet they sold Israel Bonds. They supported Israel. I even remember the proud Galtziane Rav who sold them. He was backed by one of the greatest Chassidishe Rebbes in the area and the world. While you may have taynes on specific people,and condemn their collective intentions and motives, the Boro Park Rabbinate held otherwise.

    #2117071
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I’m quite aware as Avira explained that the case of Pinchas was very unique. Do you really think that Kanoim Pogim Bo allows killing someone at a pride parade? What does it say about you that Yishai Schlissel is your hero? Do you write to him in jail and organize his fan club?

    #2117078
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    OP, what makes you think that Lapid is such an extreme change?

    There have always been some aspects of halacha in the Israeli government, and there still are. Sometimes it was more, sometimes it was less.

    Some halacha does not equal Judaism. Refrom believes in some halacha but it’s not Judaism at all. Kefira in one letter of תורה שבכתב or תורה שבעל פה is kefira in the entire Torah.

    Of course, this is not speaking about people, rather institutions. If a rabbi says lashon harah once, he is still a rabbi. If he announces that the halachos of lashon harah don’t apply anymore – he is a kofer in the entire Torah and no longer represents Judaism.

    The “State of Israel” never supported the entire Torah, so it was never a “Jewish State”.
    Of course, as Jews, we try to influence them to have as much halacha as possible, since this affects millions of Jews.

    #2117088
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    @ aviraDar’a and his camp:
    The talmud (Yevamos 90) says about the Chashmonaim (Maccabees), that they would kill jews left and right for even committing Drabanans on Shobbas, and for committing Non-Tznuis PERMITTED acts. There is a concept of Hora’s sha’a, that goes above the basic law of due process.
    There were MANY times in history when we killed ppl against halacha because the situation called for it.
    i know the zionists like the “Maccabees”, but according to chazal and all historians, they were fanatic jihadi terrorist murderers who were much worse than Yishai Shlissel.
    it’s not so pashut. “Hora’as Sha’a shani”. its pretty scary actually……..

    #2117095
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    donald, those times required a beis din smuchim. The chashmonaim were such a beis din (we have lists of things, including, as it happens to be, boel aramis derech znus). One cannot declare horaas shaah on their own; the operative term here is “horaah” – ruling. One needs to be capable of ruling, which in our time, we do not have.

    #2117096
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    also, the chashmonaim lived in a time when there could be hasra’ah, and people were afraid in general of beis din. beis din had the capacity to punish, and the torah does not limit that capacity fully, allowing horaas shaah. at that time people were also more knowledgeable and had more awareness of torah. In our time, the chazon ish says that people do not have that, and are regarded as tinokos shenishbu. even those who argued with the chazon ish may agree in our time, because of the absolute horrors of our society. On the other hand, there’s a chance the chazon ish would agree with his dissenters now, because torah is more commonplace and people see frumkeit more than in his time. Who knows? Either way, people educated in the israeli public school system are taught mother’s milk that LGBT are kodesh kedoshim; it’s hard to blame them fully….especially to the point where we’d consider them so liable that we can apply the non-existant law of kanoim pogin to them.

    #2117098
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    ben; there was a time when the majority of rabbis and laymen were supportive of israel in the sense that they viewed it as hatzalah for jews after the holocaust. the role of the zionist enterprise during the holocaust, and their american cohorts, was and is still pretty unknown. They didn’t believe in zionist ideology; they didn’t believe that a land, culture, language make us into klal yisroel. they believed that the torah makes us a nation. they had political and practical reasons for supporting the state; we’re not in a position to judge, but the gedolei gedolim, i.e. the brisker rov, chazon ish, saw right through the veil and knew not to support it.

    #2117099
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    it honestly pains me that a ben avrohom yitzchok and yaakov could even think of condoning the blatant murder of people. not to mention the horrific chillul Hashem; that people think that torah jews are murderers.

    of course, if the halacha of kanoim pogim would apply, there would be no chilul Hashem, because halacha determines what is and what is not a chilul Hashem. I’m not coming from “what will the frei/goyim think”

    #2117136

    Can we use chashmomaim as an example of how to govern rather than just how to resist foreign power? They very quickly ended up fighting each other, killing talmidei chachamim … This example does tell us that some people can be tzadikim in some aspect, but not always example on all their actions. We do honor the achievements.

    #2117148
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    They only rose up because of religious persecution; they weren’t supposed to make a government, and their reign ended bitterly because of it, says the ramban. That’s because only bnei dovid are supposed to be kings; yo yaser shevet meyehudah.

    Actually, their downfall is a prime lesson against zionism. They enlisted the help of the romans, and were at the end, assimilated and hellenized – the very thing they were fighting against. No longer was the Torah the only thing that mattered; much like religious zionists, who believe in the value of things outside torah, like land, ownership, conquest, and how we look in the eyes of the goyim.

    #2117163
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    The chashmonoim who fought the secular jews (and eventually the Greek empire which supported the secular) were not the same ppl as those who killed the rabbis. That was their grandchildren, who were mad at the rabbis for paseling them from kehuna because of their mother being a captive.
    And I’m not condoning murder, especially a random girl who did nothing. Pick on someone your own size

    All I’m saying is that it’s possible for such a thing to actually be a massive kiddush hashem, in certain specific circumstances, with those who oppose actually creating the chillul hashem.
    Where and when is the major question. Most corruption in religion stems from a misapplication or misunderstanding of an underlying truth.
    Definition of kiddush hashem, showing that torah and hashem is important. Chillul hashem is the opposite. Doesn’t bother you? That might be a chillul hashem…….

    edited

    #2117168
    Avi K
    Participant

    Ujm, are you serious or just a troll? Schlissel is a murderer. Maybe a shoteh, but a murderer. Kanaim pogim bo only refers to certain acts. A woman with a woman is not one of them, especially if it is consensual.

    Regarding, the Hashmonaim, after the first generation, they were Tzaddukim. Yanai slaughtered the chachamim and his sons fought a civil war and brought in the Romans. Even so, Rambam says that one of the reasons why we celebrate Chanuka because we had sovereignty for 200 years. The present-day state is the proverbial half a glass. It supports yeshivot and seminaries (more people are learning today than at any time in our history), IDF kitchens are kosher. Shabbat is an official day of rest and chagim are holidays. Most government offices are even closed during Chol haMoed.

    Chazal say (Chullin 63b) that the ra’ah is called that because he sits in chutz la Aretz and see a carcass in Eretz Yisrael. The Kotzker says that nothing is more tamei than that. There will not be a downfall like the Chashmonaim. Rav Herzog paskeend it when it looked like Rommel would get here c”v. There will a peaceful transition or transitions, in the same manner, lehavdil, as states in the US change their constitutions.

    Avira, FYI, conquering and possessing EY is part of Torah. So is looking good in the eyes of the other nations. This is called “kiddush Hashem”.

    #2117244
    akuperma
    Participant

    The idea behind a Jewish state was to get away from the control that Torah had over the Jewish community (as they sing: to be a free people, free from the yoke of Torah).

    Most rabbanim at the time thought this was a bad idea. One underlying reason is the values necessary to maintain a state would inevitably clash with Torah values (e.g. learning how to fight wars instead of learning how to do mitsvos). Also it was obvious that the goyim would object and when goyim object to something they tend to express themselves violently).

    #2117216

    I find it difficult to understand this argument about bnei David. What were Chashmonaim supposed to do? Go find a Ben David who didn’t show up on his own? Maybe more reasonable they should not call themselves kings and have a broader power sharing with Sanhedrin. Still not clear how this is possible at the time of fighting that requires unified power, see Shmuel and Washington. It seems the immediate source of their downfall was fighting each other and calling Pompey to resolve that. Still, there was no path to independence in the Roman empire, as r Yohanan understood

    #2117251
    Romain
    Participant

    if you think the state is still jewish without torah
    Then that is untill now
    If lapid is reelacted he promises
    To cancel the nation state law which states without any meaning
    That the state jewish
    So than means that its not even zionist

    #2117259
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Akuperma et al,
    You and others seem to have the idea that , absent the State of Israel , Torah Judaism was fine. Prior to WW2, North America was viewed ,correctly, as the treife medina and Western Europe was no better. However, their Eastern European bastion was showing enormous cracks. Starting in the 1880’s and accelerating in the 20th century, more and more young frum Jews were abandoning the shtetl for big cities and the US. Worse, they were abandoning religion for all of the isms ( socialism, Zionism, anarchism, communism, atheism) and the trend greatly accelerated in the 1930’s. On top of that, with Stalin’s crackdowns, millions of Russian Jews were lost spiritually.

    #2117277
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The land is meant to be a to dlr mitzvos, not an identity. It’s a mitzvah like anything else; shofar, tefilin

    #2117282
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “This argument sounds like hutzpa from the side that doesn’t generally serve, whatever good reasons might be for that”

    Ergo, is it also chutzpah for a “side” that doesn’t generally learn Torah full time to criticize kollel learners? Also, if chareidi enlistment was desirable to the army, would it not be prudent for them to find out why chareidim do not serve?

    “I just read that Netziv put his shabbos clothes to accept a first bottle of wine from EY. that was at the time of early Zionists”

    There’s a distinction between Eretz Yisroel itself and the medina that rules portions of E”Y and the Negev.

    #2117284
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Avi K,

    “conquering and possessing EY is part of Torah.”

    So said the Jewish people immediately following the sin of the spies, with disastrous results, R”L. We have to make sure we’re doing things the right way.

    “So is looking good in the eyes of the other nations.”

    The way to look good in the eyes of the other nations is to follow Hashem and His Torah, not to try and be just like them.

    #2117334
    ujm
    Participant

    Donald: Which non-tznius permitted acts did the Chashmonaim execute for?

    #2117451
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “UJM…are you serious or just a troll?..

    Thats like asking the Chicken on the way to the shlachthois what size plumba he prefers.

    #2117459

    Avram > would it not be prudent for them to find out why chareidim do not serve?

    I agree, and I believe there are some initiatives that makes charedim serve in acceptable units.

    < chutzpah for a “side” that doesn’t generally learn Torah full time to criticize kollel learners

    that’s a cheap shot. Someone who serves in the army risks his life for the safety of others.
    I am not sure whose criticism you mean – chilonim, other religious Jews or me personally. My skepticism regarding current social system is not that I don’t want people to learn, I want them to learn with all the chumros mentioned by Rambam and human decency. I am all for father-in-laws and businessmen supporting learners, or people learning in poverty without using funds that are not given to them for that purpose.

    Netziv lived before medinah, but I think people who were growing that wine were tzionim, not yerushalmis. I may be wrong though.

    #2117495
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avram,

    1. That was that genration. It was a punishment for their initial refusal. The next generation did conquer it. See Ramban, Sefer haMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “Forgot”.

    2. So why did Yehoshua refrain from killing the Givonim? Halachically, it was a mekach ta’ut.

    #2117635
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Avi, ever see the megilas ester on that rambam? He says that the rambam doesn’t count it because of the 3 oaths. He didn’t forget anything.

    The ramban quotes the oaths in maamar al hageulah, so how can he say that it’s a chiyuv to live in EY? the achronim say that his chiyuv of yishuv EY is on the yochid, not the rabim, because for a rabim it would be “kachomah”

    So according to the rambam we’re in a time when, much like the meraglim, we’re not supposed to take the land. Zionists are very similar to meraglim in the opposite sense; the meraglim believed in kochi veotzem yadi and thought that they were too weak. The zionists believe in kochi veotzem yadi and think that they’re strong; just different sides of the same cheit.

    #2117754
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Today is the the forty third yahr zeit of the Satmar Rav, Rav Yoel ztz’l who in his sefer Vayoel Moishe emphasizes the violation of the three shavuos. He says on the Hagadah שפןך חמתך וכו אשר בשמך לא קראו, the nations that know You but do not call Your Name, are the ziyonim.

    #2117747
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “I agree, and I believe there are some initiatives that makes charedim serve in acceptable units.”

    Acceptable to whom?

    “that’s a cheap shot. Someone who serves in the army risks his life for the safety of others.”

    Nah, don’t give me that shtick. AviraDeArah was not criticizing Israeli soldiers, and he’s American, not Israeli. If you can arbitrarily create “sides” in Am Yisroel, assign someone to a “side”, and declare it chutzpah for him to criticize something on the “other” side, then why can’t I?

    “My skepticism regarding current social system is not that I don’t want people to learn, I want them to learn with all the chumros mentioned by Rambam and human decency.”

    Chumros? Human decency? Your position does not originate from the Rambam. You have prejudices and seek justification for them from the Rambam. To paraphrase a big rav (can’t remember who): feel free to say my Torah in your name, but do not say your Torah in my name.

    “I am all for father-in-laws and businessmen supporting learners”

    No you’re not. I’ve been around the block with you on that topic before.

    “or people learning in poverty without using funds that are not given to them for that purpose.”

    What level of poverty would you like to see before you’re satisfied? It’s only you who declares the government funds dispersed are not for the purpose of supporting families, not the government itself.

    #2117738
    Benephraim
    Participant

    You may state that certain gedolei gedolim trump plain Rabbonim and Dayanim. Do you really believe that mechadidi tfay is better than rov? The so called issur of supporting some ideologues who are not frum is equal to aliyah on Har Habayis? please explain why your individual shita espoused by the greatest Rabbonim are more valid than a simple statistical majority of Rabbonim.

    #2117737
    y1836
    Participant

    Avirah- Look at the the Tzitz Eliezer (i beleive it’s Chelek Zayin, Lamid Ches), who says that the establishment of Israel was in fact, Hashem’s Pekidah of Bnei Yisroel, and we are supposed to reclaim the land. In fact, he suggests that Hashem Davka used non-beleivers as his Shluchim so that it would be more of a Nes, that those who don’t care about the Mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel are reclaiming the land, and we would know that it’s in fact the time which Hashem wants us all to come back.

    #2117789
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    y – I’ll look it up, but I will say that he is totally outclassed by the gedolei olam who didn’t hold of it, and in fact, held quite the opposite.

    #2117818
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Baruch Hashem for the Zionist State which calls itself Israel! They are the largest marbitz Torah in the entire history of galus! How many Yungerleit are sitting and learning for years, YEARS!, just because Hashem commanded the State of Israel to provide them with money and food? How many Kollelim, Yeshivos, Seminaries, Bais Yaakovs, Chedarim, and shuls exist just because Israel also exists? Imagine what a world we would live in if Chas v’Shalom Eretz Yisroel was still under the Turks, or the Palestinians, or the British!

    No Jewish state, no torah.

    #2117821
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    @ujm
    look it up Yevamos(90b), i beleive.
    i said it wasnt tznius….

    #2117824

    Avram > What level of poverty would you like to see before you’re satisfied?

    whatever it takes. Make your shabbos as chol. See below. I am sure there are tirutzim to read away these basic halochos as such lifestyle seems acceptable and we can argue about it for a long time, that is why I generously called these halochos “chumros”.

    YD 255 לעולם ירחיק אדם עצמו מהצדקה
    when can one take? מי שיש לו מזון שתי סעודות לא יטול מהתמחוי
    ואפי’ היה חכם מכובד והעני יעסוק באומנות ואפי’ באומנות מנוולת ואל יצטרך לבריות:
    כל מי שאינו צריך ליטול מהצדקה ומרמה העם ונוטל אינו מת עד שיצטרך לבריות

    non-Jewish charity seems to be more stringent than Jewish
    YD 254 אסור לישראל ליטול צדקה מן העובד כוכבים בפרהסיא ואם אינו יכול לחיות בצדקה של ישראל ואינו יכול ליטלה מהעובד כוכבים בצינעא הרי זה מותר

    #2117825

    AAQ >> “I AM ALL FOR FATHER-IN-LAWS AND BUSINESSMEN SUPPORTING LEARNERS”
    Avram> No you’re not. I’ve been around the block with you on that topic before.

    I am not sure what was the context of my previous words … maybe we were discussing learning v. part/time learning and working and Gemora’s position that many followed R Shimon and failed? This still allows for people who will not fail and also those who will fail will simply live a little warped life without affecting other people. This seems like an academic topic, I do not think we have – in our times – a lot of people who fail in learning but excel in middos to not take OPM. Usually, if you have good middos and access to learning material, you will succeed.

    #2117826

    Avram > if you can arbitrarily create “sides” in Am Yisroel,

    Sure, let’s continue this pilpul. Puting aside chilonim, then if a person who learns only 2 hours a day can criticize kollel, then a learner who serves in the army for only 2 hours a day can criticize tzahal.

    #2117830
    y1836
    Participant

    My mistake. It’s in Chelek Zayin, Teshuvah Mem Ches, Perek Yud Beis.

    #2117883
    VelvelBenGenya
    Participant

    So move back to Europe, you’ll be treated better there!

    #2117893
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Velvel, in europe they hate us, but rockets aren’t shot into jewish communities, air raid sirens aren’t part of life, terror attacks don’t happen, and the government doesn’t try to take away your religion.

    #2117894
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Yserb, if America ran eretz yisroel as a territory, they’d have the same grants and programs, probably more..and they wouldn’t have terrorism, or fake ideologies shouting at them at every turn.

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