No torah no jewish state
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Tagged: israel, State of Israel, Zionism, Zionists
- This topic has 195 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 8 months, 2 weeks ago by Always_Ask_Questions.
August 23, 2022 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #2117897
I’m looking at the teshuva now. He ignores the megilas ester and jumps straight to rabbi kook, who he refers to as “maran”. He also writes emotionally, bemechilas kovod toraso – this seems so far like a political writing, not a halachik one. For instance, he says that the shevuos don’t apply after the state was made….because the world is ok with jews coming to “their” land, and they see it as “natural” – has he ever heard what they say at the UN? They hated Israel from day 1….he also claims that tanach praises evil kings while also mentioning that they’re evil, that aveiros don’t counteract mitzvos, when amatzah saved the 10 shvatim from an enemy…the problem is that while the pasuk says he did evil in the eyes of Hashem, it doesn’t actually praise his saving of the shvatim…just that that’s what happened.
I don’t have time at the moment to go through the whole thing, but it’s honestly typical. Poskim are human. Unless they’re the gedolei olam, kedoshei elyon, people who live in a different dimension…people like the chazon ish, they are, on their level, influenced by the tides and events around them. Rav waldenburg was a big talmid chochom, but reading this teshuva just convinces me of the emotional motivation of these opinions, not that the opinion is valid.August 23, 2022 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2117899anonymous JewParticipant
Ive been told that the oaths are no longer valid , for 2 reasons:
1. Our obedience to the oaths was conditional upon how the goyim treated us. The Holocaust negated the oaths
2. A world body, t h e United Nations, voted to give us our land backAugust 23, 2022 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2117900
Avira, thanks for quoting this teshuva!
> the world is ok with jews coming to “their” land, and they see it as “natural” – has he ever heard what they say at the UN? They hated Israel from day 1…
By the letter of the law, UN voted to create Israel. Don’t take zechuyos from people who need them .. Maybe Americans wanted to stick it to Brits, and Soviets expected a client communist state, but their vote is what mattered.
> Poskim are human. Unless they’re the gedolei olam,
You are refining further and further your system of rejecting Talmidei Chachamim who don’t agree with you. In this case, you may forgive some of the gedolim for being emotional like many other Yidden when an event of such historical magnitude happens – at the seemingly very lowest point of
Jewish history. As one chacham writes in his memoirs at that time: “European Jewry is destroyed, Russian Jews are permanently under Communists, there never was a yeshiva in America and never will be, EY is under Brits and not allowing anyone in, ehat is going happen with the Torah? …”. I am sure you can reply to this Chacham that Zionists did not support Torah directly, but if you put yourself back at that time, it gave hope and any hope mattered. Think for a minute what if American Jews stayed fully secular – EY would be the only place for Torah. I am sure you’ll go there to learn of there were no other choices. Would rather learn there under an Arafat or an Assad? Do you think they will let Chazon Ish to have his “midbar” peacefully?August 23, 2022 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #2117905y1836Participant
Avira- I’m confused. You’re basically saying that we can write off Teshuvos from Gedolim, as being emotional, and influenced by the times. After all, Gedolim are human. But then when it comes to Gedolim who we decide have the level of “Kadoshe Elyon”, (your definition seems to be, Gedolim who were anti-Zionist), then it becomes “Halacha Moshe Misanai”.August 23, 2022 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2117924
Zionism isn’t my qualifier about what makes a gadol. But if someone accepts a non jewish ideology, like rabbi kook, they’re not an authority.
If one embraces something because of suffering and a desire to be redeemed (like the ponevezher rov, tzitz eliezer), they aren’t disqualified from being a posek or even a tzadik, just they haven’t reached the pinnacle of daas torah at which point all negius and bias falls away and only the davar Hashem speaks mitoch grono, ispashtusa demoshe bechol dor. Rav moshe was one such person, as was the chazon ish, brisker rov. the list isn’t very long.August 24, 2022 12:08 am at 12:08 am #2117932
y1836 > your definition seems to be, Gedolim who were anti-Zionist
The problem of his definition is that it ls self-serving. We look at “gedolim” to see something that we might not figure out ourselves. With this definition, you simply re-define any gadol who disagrees with you as lower-level human gadol. Then, the whole notion is meaningless and serves simply as a way to find louder arguments for your own position.August 24, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2118051
“in europe they hate us, but rockets aren’t shot into jewish communities, air raid sirens aren’t part of life”
“terror attacks don’t happen”
“and the government doesn’t try to take away your religion.”
Not true.August 24, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2118053
“Baruch Hashem for the … No Jewish state, no torah”
These two statements are incongruous.August 24, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2118076
“whatever it takes.”
So do you think the Rambam wrote the Mishne Torah for the rich to use to rub the poor’s faces in the dirt? You’ve mentioned making Shabbos as chol multiple times as if this would fix everything. How much do you really think that skipping Shalosh Seudos would affect a typical Jewish family’s weekly budget?
“YD 255 לעולם ירחיק אדם עצמו מהצדקה”
Who says that the U.S. Government entitlements are halachically considered tzedakah? They aren’t considered charity by the U.S. itself.August 24, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2118078
“We look at “gedolim” to see something that we might not figure out ourselves.”
You should take your own advice. There are gedolim in Lakewood. They know that people there learn Torah while receiving government benefits. I’m pretty sure they’ve also heard of the Rambam and the Mishne Torah and maybe even learned it. Yet you insult them by saying “I am sure there are tirutzim to read away these basic halochos as such lifestyle seems acceptable.” So at the end of the day you’re doing no different than what you accuse AviraDeArah of doing.August 24, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2118083y1836Participant
AAQ – Agreed. That is why i was bothered by Avira’s definition.August 24, 2022 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #2118104
Avram> So do you think the Rambam wrote the Mishne Torah for the rich to use to rub the poor’s faces in the dirt
I think he wrote it for the poor to encourage them to work and live kosher Jewish life. If I may to rephrase what Rambam said about his work: you can be a full-time lawyer, read Mishne Torah on the train to work and stay fully “frum”.
Avram> You’ve mentioned making Shabbos as chol
I am sorry, it was R Akiva who mentioned that, of course, not me. You are making me repeat that by not replying on substance 🙂 I don’t think most people need to go to that extreme. If you accept a modest lifestyle and work a couple of hours a day, you should have herring left for shaloseudos. Granted, Gemora lets (although not recommends) a father to send the kids after 6 y.o. to go do some work, so maybe some adjustments are in order.August 24, 2022 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #2118112
Avram > Who says that the U.S. Government entitlements are halachically considered tzedakah?
It is a good question. What are alternatives? I see halakhic sources mentioning a goyishe ruler giving to charity and we have problem with that seemingly due to his personal involvement. Maybe having a law-based society, treating Jews as equals in all aspects, changes that. So, this argument might allow taking payments from non-Jewish government in a legitimate way, especially as we pay our taxes.
So, just general thinking about halakhic status of payments from government:
– explicit insurance: unemployment, flood, FDIC, medicare, social security (even if a trick somewhat)
– payment for accepted services: school transportation, public services
– old-style political hegemon payments, like I hear student loan forgiveness for slackers.
– charity: welfare, food stamps, medicaid: any payments based on low income, maybe even taking low-income tax deductions, I guess.
Why are the later ones charity? It is an organized system of supporting poor. Again, an interesting question: do we consider it “non-Jewish” or some more neutral form. Let’s say it is a sofek, then you can have two possible set of rules: some for Jewish charities, some for non-Jewish (I don’t think these are kal vehomer – one may be more stringent in some cases, another – in other). So, appropriate behavior would be somewhere between these two versions.
If anyone has better halakhic sources, I am all ears.August 24, 2022 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #2118131
You haven’t given a halachik source yet for others to provide a better one.
As usual you are overly obssessed with other people’s finances, specifically the learners. It is such an inspiration to see someone who feels so strongly about how other people spend their money that he is even willing to forfeit his religious observance for it! bravo!August 24, 2022 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #2118138
Avram > You should take your own advice. There are gedolim in Lakewood.
Thanks for agreeing and for an advice to follow my wise advice! A good challenge.
As a personal aside, one of my Teachers is a Lakewood resident for maybe 60 years. I never asked him about transfer payments. But you are not asking me to learn personally at Lakewood, but to respect Lakewood derech, right?
I agree that there is some similarity to how Avira looks at modernim. Let me try to look from outside, maybe you can do it better:
1) I do not choose my learning sources based on their reading or not of Kant or knowing calculus, or even political or social positions. I guess I’d draw a line for those supporting Arafat or Putin, but this is, b’H, not a big group at our times.
2) You can see me urging Avira to understand the positive sides of people he is criticizing. No response. I think I fully appreciate successes of yeshiva/hareidi movement in getting us to the current moment.
3) It well may be that their social policies are still correct en masse. Still, In my thinking, there are many people who are capable of better living: better in a Jewish sense. I also suspect that gedolim’ opinions is not as the oilam sees it, or it is not the same for everyone. I know people whose children were in anti-college yeshivos but RY were fine in private with these particular kids going to college. I do not think Steipler tried to stop R Twersky also.August 24, 2022 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #2118141
Syag> You haven’t given a halachik source
We had R Akiva and Rambam discussed before and I referred to several siyufim in Shulchan Orach, Yoreh Deah 255 above. True, I did not trace it further to our times, but you probably know this is how halakha is discussed, starting from earlier sources. So, either I am not applying S’A terms correctly to modern realities (as Avram is suggesting) or there are later sources that explain why and how halakha changed.August 24, 2022 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #2118151
Look at the Rambam Hilchas Kiddush Hachodesh (17, 24) where he says that by Mathematics and Astronomy we can rely on non-Jewish Greek sources as the truth proven cannot be denied.August 24, 2022 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2118171
“So, just general thinking about halakhic status of payments from government … I guess.”
You can’t just “wing it” and guess whether it’s charity based on what sounds good to you if you’re going to then turn around and condemn Jews for taking it. Question: do you calculate maaser on your income before or after taxes?August 24, 2022 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2118176
“True, I did not trace it further to our times, but you probably know this is how halakha is discussed, starting from earlier sources.”
We can’t just “not trace it further to our times” when dealing with halacha l’maase. Otherwise you’re doing the same thing with the Rambam that Joseph does here in the CR with the handful of halachos in Ishus that he repeats again and again to troll feminists.August 24, 2022 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2118177
RebE> Rambam Hilchas Kiddush Hachodesh (17, 24)
T his seems to be in a wrong thread ..
thanks, he says astronomy and geometry. He also says that Chochmei Israel bnei Yassahar knew this also but we lost their writings and that it is not so much that we trust “scientists” but that we judge their argument by the merit of their proofs, not their identities.
And this may be a good reason for people to study math and other hard sciences before they get to philosophy and any serious Jewish studies. It is a simple kal vehomer that one’s ability to see true argument in hard sciences is higher as there is usually an answer in the back of the book. Without it, and with “positive learning” popular today, everyone becomes convinced of his own thinking abilities because he always comes to the right conclusion (according to his own judgment or the judgment of his teachers). If you once struggle to prove a geometry theorem that a Greek guy using two instruments in the sand near Athens could, you’ll be humbler claiming that you understand hidden ways of Hashem.August 24, 2022 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #2118191
“1) I do not choose my learning sources based on their reading or not of Kant or knowing calculus, or even political or social positions. I guess I’d draw a line for those supporting Arafat or Putin, but this is, b’H, not a big group at our times.”
The criticism that y1836 has for AviraDeArah is essentially that he is engaging in a “no true Scotsman” fallacy. That’s certainly possible, but seeing Avira’s comments in other threads, his positions on the Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Kook have been fairly consistent. I do think we should have standards on our learning sources.
“I think I fully appreciate successes of yeshiva/hareidi movement in getting us to the current moment.”
I don’t, or at least if it is so, you are not communicating it here. In fact, the opposite. You’ve taken frequent shots at kollel learners, and it has gone beyond the current argument of whether it’s ok to take entitlements into suspicions of maleficence.
“I also suspect that gedolim’ opinions is not as the oilam sees it”
Other than the “oilam” not lining up with your views, what makes you suspect this?August 24, 2022 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2118244
Avram, it’s extremely rare for terror attacks to happen in England, Antwerp, etc .. France is very dangerous, that’s true. Shechita bans are an issue that was mainly aimed at halal, and we can fight that, or import meat from outside. The Antwerp community is far safer than a Jew living in eretz yisroel in the current state of things.August 24, 2022 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #2118249
Avira > it’s extremely rare for terror attacks to happen in England, Antwerp,
Taking a longer view, mainland Europe’s safety track record for Jews is limited to the last 70 years, after 2,000 years of being prime targets of prosecution. True, some locations as you mention have a couple of hundreds of years. Hope it continues, but, historically speaking, Europe is not yet a “safe place”. 1913 Europe was viewed by humanity as safe, and with current events we see how unstable things might be. Anyway, we should cherish any place where we, and other people, can have shalom, and not advocating Hashem’s tzitzum to just 2-3 cities. The more, the better.August 24, 2022 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #2118250
Avram > do you calculate maaser on your income before or after taxes?
after, psak from a local chareidi Rav. A good question – does this decision affect how you see taxes and getting them back? This is what I mentioned as a possible window of actions due to a sofek how to see taxes. Go ahead, what is your approach?August 24, 2022 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #2118252
Avram > We can’t just “not trace it further to our times”
I agree, I was just explaining that you start w/ early sources and then see what qualifiers later sources add to that. I am absolutely open to hearing those to discuss.August 24, 2022 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #2118258
AAQ> “I THINK I FULLY APPRECIATE SUCCESSES OF YESHIVA/HAREIDI MOVEMENT IN GETTING US TO THE CURRENT MOMENT.”
Avram> I don’t, or at least if it is so, you are not communicating it here.
I just did above. I can expand on what seems to be common between most of us, so it is boring to recap. Here is my view of modern history, standing on one leg: most of Jewish world was unprepared to modernity; Jews who learned the old-fashioned way – between mincha and maariv – has their children swept up in socialist and capitalist lifestyles; first positive responses to modernity, see Mendelhson, were intellectually honest, but did not protect their communities and children. Eastern Europe got the virus later and had time to develop some protective measures, going insular and increasing institutional learning w/ yeshiva movement. As Chofetz Chaim says: oilam thinks one should be frum, frum, and then klug. while he suggests: klug, klug, and then frum. DEfinite plug for improving education! Sometimes isolation had to the level of “midbar” as Hazon Ish describes his Israeli system of separating from society. R Salanter and R Hirsh developed more integrated approaches that allowed people to interact with the world with less trepidation (R Salanter specifically mentions r Hirsh).
This is even further true in America – before Eastern Europe arrivals, there was no learning, almost complete assimilation. Furthermore, “frum” behavior would not transfer from European parents to American kids as you don’t look up to parents who are not respected in the new society (source: R Nosson Sherman), so education was the key. In most cases, successful mass education was possible only within communities that isolated themselves upon arrival. Those who did not were assimilating way faster than educating. All of these ensured survival of a strong dedicated community that can sometimes even help the rest of American Yidden (Chabad and occasional others) that, upon survival, should say hallel and start addressing how to maintain strong ehrliher Jewish community. A lot of what was achieved was done by efforts of dedicated survivors of Nazi and Soviet prosecutions, who are not with us anymore, so even continuing on the same path may be a challenge that needs to be addressed.August 25, 2022 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #2118479
AAQ, the Rambam above becomes questionable when when we have Non-Euclidean geometry and Copernican astronomy.August 25, 2022 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #2118531
RebE, As I mentioned, Rambam keeps others and himself out of line of fire with the caveat that math should be judged based on proofs. And as long as those computations are correct, I don’t see how Einstein changes anything. But then I am an applied mathematician, care more about results than inner beauty.
I did find the chapter surprisingly easy written. I usually find math written between Babylon and Leibnitz totally impossible to read.
It is a pretty simple algorithm, going first through simple rules and then requiring going further only in some cases. Really a well-written code, separating computations into multiple simple operations and logical statements on how to proceed. I don’t know whether this is Rambam’s personal maala, or Arabs or Greeks before him.
PS For interesting connections between Gemora and math/economics look up lectures by Yisrael / Robert Aumann (Frankfurt, RJJ, CUNY, MIT). One is about widows in Ketubot 93, daf yomi people have a month to figure out how this relates to Reb/Prof Aumann’s Nobel prize.August 25, 2022 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #2118539
Maaser kesafim is a minhag and not a chiyuv, rewarded well. The Dubner Maggid says that there was question above, why Hashem gives one more than kadei chayov, needed for survival? So Hashem said, I will give them ten times as much to be able to give maaser required for survival. If one does not give maaser, he will only get what is needed for his survival. This is what it says עשר בשביל שתתעשר, give maaser to become rich.August 26, 2022 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2118788
“after, psak from a local chareidi Rav.
And Rav Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L.
“does this decision affect how you see taxes and getting them back?”
It helps determine whether the tax dollars that go to government programs are considered maaser/tzedaka or not. Also, the Federal revenue does not belong to Joe Biden personally, unlike a king’s treasury. The Constitution gives promoting the general welfare as one of the bases for the government’s role, part of which legislators have determined is programs that provide funds for citizens who meet specific criteria to purchase healthy foods, pay rent or mortgages, get income tax credits, etc. I don’t see this as charity any more than public schools are charity.August 26, 2022 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2118801
“I was just explaining that you start w/ early sources and then see what qualifiers later sources add to that.”
But that’s not what you did. You stopped at the Rambam and S”A, and then applied highly specific “psak” for today’s U.S. situation. That people should not accept money from government programs targeted to low income families to learn full time (assuming these programs = tzedaka), that they should make Shabbos like chol (which today would not impact the weekly budget much at all), etc.August 26, 2022 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2118805
“most of Jewish world was unprepared to modernity; Jews who learned the old-fashioned way – between mincha and maariv”
Learning between mincha and maariv is not the universal “old-fashioned” way. Learning was certainly not like that in Vilna, for example. Unfortunately, there was widespread poverty and ignorance in parts of the European Jewish world as the haskala swept Europe, but I don’t think this was due to a longstanding “status quo” in Yiddishkeit that simply became inadequate once Napoleon’s troops started fanning out. The 1600s and 1700s were some of the darkest times of golus, along with the Spanish expulsion and the Crusades. The Shabbetai Tzvi and Frankist movements were absolutely devastating spiritually, and the horrors of Khmelnytskyi and the Cossacks wiped out or displaced a significant portion of Polish/Ukrainian Jewry. And then much of European Jewry was consigned to extreme poverty in the highly tumultuous Pale of Settlement.
The historical perspective is nice, but I’m talking about the present, and comments made here on the CR.August 26, 2022 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #2118871
Learning between mincha and maariv might be based to learn day and night which ben hashmosas might satisfy as well as learning at dawn.August 26, 2022 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2118922
Avram, I mentioned local Rav not r Moshe because you want to be sure you get unbiased advice. If you read r Moshe and then read someone else paskening differently, how do you know you didn’t select the cheapest option? Unless you always go by IM.
I see what you are saying about taxes. This is an argument that welfare is not my community charity. Otherwise you could claim you fulfill tzedoka through IRS… I see welfare as nonJewish collective charity. Note that they let you to sometimes subtract your charity from taxes, do they see the kesher. Politically, people definitely see difference between types of spending. Most people are okay going getting unemployment and social security, but many wouldn’t sign up for subsidies for the poor and look down at people who use those without a need. This may be old fashioned and outdated, but I think it still exists.
I agree that the fact this is not coming from a king may changes that SA refusal to use the funds. But it could cut both ways. As stealing from a tzibur is hard to atone for. So, if you inappropriately spent NJ funds, you got to go to all towns and build water fountains there!? It maybe sakanahAugust 26, 2022 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #2118923
I brought sources not as ultimate answer but for a discussion and to highlight the issue. Please bring modern teshuvos and let’s see how we got from one to another. Stop complaining about me quoting S A, there are worse crimes here!!August 26, 2022 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #2118930
This discussion raises a question. It is considered a mitzvah in this country to minimize taxes paid, take all possible deductions, hopefully stopping before gray area… This is not same as using services for poor, hope you are, but let me know.
These items are comingling more and more, and on purpose. Clinton initiated “credits” that exceed taxes paid which others called disguised welfare, while proponents counted against payroll taxes paid elsewhere… By now, you get so many transfer payments that it is hard to track. For example, what is taking a loan to get a degree and then enrolling into Obama’s low payment program that was just enhanced and get loans cancelled. Is this kosher, or only because everyone is doing it. As little girl retorted to r Yehoshua regarding a shortcut through a field, gazlanim like you made itAugust 26, 2022 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #2118944
I have met many people who obsess over the maticulousness of their spending that it should be kosher, some to the point of possible clinical levels. You sir, are the only one who does so to those levels in regard to other people’s spending.August 29, 2022 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2119454
“I mentioned local Rav not r Moshe because you want to be sure you get unbiased advice.”
If necessary, my local rav would most likely look to the Igros Moshe for that type of shaila. And bringing Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L for an American shaila is not going psak shopping.
“I see welfare as nonJewish collective charity.”
It doesn’t matter how you see it. Dina malchusa dina, what matters is how the law sees it.
“Note that they let you to sometimes subtract your charity from taxes, do they see the kesher.”
If the U.S. government wants to promote citizens giving to charity, and Welfare is charity, why would they give tax deductions? Collect more taxes!
“As stealing from a tzibur is hard to atone for. So, if you inappropriately spent NJ funds, you got to go to all towns and build water fountains there!? It maybe sakanah”
Someone who qualifies for benefits and takes them to buy whole wheat bread, milk, fish, and vegetables for their kids instead of cheap bulk mac and chemical powder cheese is doing nothing illegal, no matter how much you hate them for it or think they should wave a magic wand and have a higher income. Someone who doesn’t qualify for benefits but takes them through false pretenses is both committing a crime and violating halacha, but that’s not what we’ve been debating.August 29, 2022 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2119461
“It is considered a mitzvah in this country to minimize taxes paid, take all possible deductions”
Some segments of U.S. society over-obsess about people receiving welfare benefits. Other segments over-obsess about people “not paying their fair share”. Both segments like to turn their obsessions into religious polemics. The laws are what they are, and everybody is going to maximize their benefits permitted by law. Don’t like the law? Vote for candidates that see things as you do. But other people may vote differently.August 29, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2119509
I think every jew who sends their kids to essentially unsubsidized schools pays “their fair share,” since they do not benefit from public schools. Why should we pay into a system which we do not benefit from, which teaches children to switch genders and that man came from an amoeba? If we can get around it legally and halachikally, there’s no issue.August 29, 2022 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #2119560
Avram > Some segments of U.S. society over-obsess about people receiving welfare benefits. Other segments over-obsess about people “not paying their fair share”.
Within our system, we have both requirements – not to depend on tzedoka when one is able to, and to give when one is able to. I don’t know what is controversial here.August 29, 2022 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #2119561
Avram > If necessary, my local rav would most likely look to the Igros Moshe for that type of shaila. And bringing Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L for an American shaila is not going psak shopping.
Sure! I am just saying that in a personal subject like that, I would not dare look up Igros Moshe myself. What if then I find out that someone else is more machmir, or more meikil. Or maybe I should stop looking after IM as it looks meikel enough. Just saying, this is where you want to depend on a local Rav (and follow local minhag anyway). Not arguing on IM or anything.August 29, 2022 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #2119565
Avira > If we can get around it legally and halachikally, there’s no issue.
Are you suggesting that if we are not using one of the government benefits, then we are entitled to “get around” some other issues?
I do not agree with the premise. You may also not use flood insurance because you live on a hill, or subsidies for veterans because you did not serve. Why does that matter? We live in a country that treats are favorably, better than many many places we lived over centuries. Now, just because you are paying too much property tax or disagree with some government decision, you have a license to misbehave?
2nd, you are free to use some public funds for education. I believe a lot of schools use early education/Title something/transportation/meals and whatever they can get. We are also using charity write-offs for some expenses. I personally, and a small number of yeshivos and BYs, use publicly-funded online education and wherever there is a chashash with the materials, kids point it out before I do.
3rd, I guess we need to define “get around”. Please clarify. It is clearly OK to organize your finances to minimize taxes. Possibly to organize your business profits so that you look poorer on FAFSA. How about SNAP? There are usually requirements for job training and placement. Does this mean that you participate in job training if you, say, fully capable of finding a job? I don’t know whether this is “legal and halakhic”, but does not sound right for me.
Last question that we mention above – we have classical sources rejecting non-Jewish charity (and not using Jewish charity when not needed). Do we have modern poskim addressing how to view modern state payments in this respect.August 29, 2022 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #2119568
Syag > who does so to those levels in regard to other people’s spending.
Syag, first we are not discussing spending, we are discussing taking. 2nd, yes, I am not taking that type of money myself. I once took welfare funds for 2 months when I needed them, and then took the first appropriate job I found. It did not occur to me to continue telling the office that I can’t find a job.August 29, 2022 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #2119586
You have been obssessed about others taking and spending. You can’t let go of it and it is really creepy. If it isn’t hate based, then explain it already.
Your rationalization is that the halacha is that you cannot accept charity, but you are the only one who has deemed it charity. The government doesn’t and the administrators who run the welfare offices don’t. So you made up a “fact” in order to crucify a group according to the laws around it. So let me try taking a page out of your book and do the same. I know you have claimed you homeschool, which of course is truancy and neglect. As far as I know being a criminal is kneged Torah as is child neglect. How do you justify deliberate child neglect and criminal behavior regarding your children?
And to further my point, any time someone mentions school, I may bring up the fact that there are people who homeschool despite it being a crime and negligent. If I say it enough maybe it can be true.
“It did not occur to me to continue telling the office that I can’t find a job.”
why bring this up? Are you now insinuating that someone else did do that? Is that just more motzei shem rah?August 29, 2022 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2119579
Here is one related teshuva I found:
Question: Someone wishes to make aliya to Eretz Yisrael (to fulfill the mitzvah of settling the land of Israel) but has financial difficulties, and is only able to come if he does not inform the United States Government about his income, which many people do regularly, is it permitted for him to do so or not?
Response: I heard from HaGaon Y.S. Elyashiv shlita that it is certainly prohibited to do so (which prohibited because of dina d’malchusa) and it is prohibited even if he will never be able to make aliya to Eretz Yisrael afterwards.August 30, 2022 7:26 am at 7:26 am #2119614
Syag, i didn’t know you believe all homeschooling to be truancy and neglect. One of, if not the most outstanding talmidim of my rosh yeshiva was homeschooled. His younger brother is also the top of his yesbiva. I know indirectly many other such cases. Don’t you think it’s more dependent on the quality of the homeschooling?August 30, 2022 10:50 am at 10:50 am #2119748
“we have both requirements – not to depend on tzedoka when one is able to, and to give when one is able to. I don’t know what is controversial here. “
A few posts up you stated that it’s considered a “mitzvah” to do everything possible to minimize taxes paid, but you seem to think it’s essentially a crime for someone who qualifies for an income-based benefit to take it. If both giving (i.e., paying taxes) and not taking benefits are “requirements” in your mind, why the disparate attitudes towards those who avoid giving vs those who take, assuming both stay out of “gray areas”?August 30, 2022 10:51 am at 10:51 am #2119754
“I would not dare look up Igros Moshe myself. What if then I find out that someone else is more machmir, or more meikil.”
What if you find out that someone else is more machmir or more meikil than your LOR?August 30, 2022 11:34 am at 11:34 am #2119769
“I do not agree with the premise. You may also not use flood insurance because you live on a hill, or subsidies for veterans because you did not serve.”
He said legally and halachically. These examples are illegal and against halacha. Admittedly I do not know what he means by “get around”. If someone qualifies for a benefit and applies for and takes the benefit, that’s not “getting around” anything.
“Question: Someone wishes to make aliya to Eretz Yisrael (to fulfill the mitzvah of settling the land of Israel) but has financial difficulties, and is only able to come if he does not inform the United States Government about his income, which many people do regularly, is it permitted for him to do so or not?”
So this is another example of illegal activity, on which I think everyone here agrees is 100% assur and thus not debated. What we are debating is the idea of taking benefits that one is legally entitled to, but you feel is avoidable if the person spurned his shtender for Party U to get a recognized and thus “respectable” degree (BA in Art History?).
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