December 18, 2019 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1812010
what is wrong with a good and an appropriate Non-Jewish book/novel?December 18, 2019 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1812092dogooderParticipant
theres no such thingDecember 18, 2019 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1812137knaidlachParticipant
There are Baruch Hashem today soooo many Jewish books on all topics etc. why turn to not Jewish ones?
plus, there must appear here and there some things which do not suite for us.
plus, if you like one not Jewish book you will wanto go to the library or store to get another not Jewish book, and you might end up getting one day some book that is really not appropriate at allDecember 18, 2019 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1812133
As the moderaton in CR, we would need a hechshar on the books. There is nothing wrong with an essay by Helen Keller of Three Days to See where she provides an appreciation for our sight.December 19, 2019 2:14 am at 2:14 am #1812188Shopping613 🌠Participant
You get influenced by what you read.December 19, 2019 6:41 am at 6:41 am #1812199RebbeDebbieParticipant
My rav says that novels can be very problematic because many feature immodest themes.December 19, 2019 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1812355
so if there is no immodest aspect to it then it is okDecember 19, 2019 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1812362
Huckleberry Finn, the first 3 Harry Potters, Charlottes Web, Black Beauty, Winnie the Pooh, Thomas the Tank Engine, Paddington, do you need any more?December 19, 2019 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1812367Yserbius123Participant
@knaidlach. I have yet to find a good Jewish book about the pros and cons of AI in today’s world. Or one explaining Eulers Identity for a non-math person. Or even a decent book about the Theories of Relativity and quantum physics.
Edited. I don’t find it appropriate to normalize the rationalization process used to justify exposing yourself to stuff that’s not acceptable.December 19, 2019 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1812444knaidlachParticipant
some of the things you talk about i dont even know what they are. do you really need to know those things? i dont. and i got married, i have children, grand children, lots of nachas, a house, a car, a computer, cell phone.December 20, 2019 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1812559GadolhadorahParticipant
There is a vast range of opinions here in the CR on what is “appropriate” based on one’s haskhafah. Likewise, there are really no normative “criteria” as to what constitutes a “Jewish” versus “Non-Jewish” book. Its clearly not based on the author (some of the major works of pritzus have been by Jewish writers). Its also not based on subject matter since most works on the “old testament” or “traditional values” are not written from a yiddeshe perspective. Its really something that each individual will have to decide (with input from his/her LRP as necessary) on a case-by-case basis.December 23, 2019 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1813308
GH to me at least it really isn’t very complicated. Jewish books are books written by frume Yidden who naturally espouse frume values. Non Jewish books are those that aren’t written from the lens of Torah hashkofa even if the author happens to be JewishDecember 23, 2019 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1813309Elchonon WParticipant
They seep into your neshama, whether you realize it or not.
There is no reason to expose yourself to kefira like the theory of relativity. Much better to stick to Torah literature.December 23, 2019 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1813315
To address the op, it is that there are always problems in non Jewish books. There are always things that don’t line up with Torah values. The only time I read non Jewish novels was when I was forced to for three years of high school. Animal farm- the main characters were pigs- that was the least problematic one. A tale of two cities by dickens- the interaction between the male protagonist and females was highly inappropriate, a separate piece sent the message that everyone is evil at heart, and the book we read that was a teacher’s redo of indoctrinating students to become Nazis, as an experiment (forget the title) featured boyfriends and girlfriends.
If you want a good piece of writing where the values and purity just shine through, read The Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Memoirs. He writes the history with such descriptive writing, that you feel like you are there yourself.
I remember the clear contrast between dickens disgusting objectification of women as just being valued for their looks vs. the memoirs which described a young women as being beautiful in character as well as in appearance. The character was first and the appearance just added or expressed the beautiful character. Just like we learn about the Imahos.December 23, 2019 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1813319
The worst thing about reading them is that their values seep in without you realising because it’s just part of the story. Then your senses get dulled. Then something which may have seemed highly inappropriate when you first read it, coming from the world of Jewish literature, becomes normal and doesn’t strike you as disgusting or inappropriate at all, just not something that Jews do. Eventually you could even desire to do things the way the normal way is, as to you, normal is now the non Jewish way of doing things.
This is what the Torah means when it says not to follow the disgusting ways of the Canaanim. If they are disgusting why would we follow them? Because after seeing their ways day in and day out they stop looking disgusting and may even look desirable.December 23, 2019 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1813332
The theory of relativity is Masechas Yevomos.December 23, 2019 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1813340
Knowing certain sciences like chemistry increases emunah.December 23, 2019 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1813363Shopping613 🌠Participant
I thought you meant novels.
I don’t see an issue with those types of books.December 23, 2019 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1813421
If individuals fill the chesronos of an other like hydrogen fills the chesronos of oxygen forming water which cannot be nomally separated, so the group formed will not be able to be separated בורא נפשות רבות וחסרונן.December 23, 2019 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1813428December 23, 2019 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1813434
A minature solar system in every atom of an element proves that only Hashem was able to create it. The string of energy theory shows that Hashem imbeded some of His energy into everything.December 23, 2019 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1813438
The Theory of Relativity teaches us the formula e=mc(square). If something is faster than the speed light, it has infnite energy. Hashem kavayochel is everywhere, so He must travel faster than the speed of light, so His energy is infinite. He created the world from energy.December 24, 2019 7:37 am at 7:37 am #1813486
what about completely clean fantasy novels? the only thing that is “bad” is the fact that there is magic in them. what is wrong with magic if you know that it cant happen? (I am not talking about Kishuf, I am talking about things that cant happen)December 24, 2019 7:37 am at 7:37 am #1813487
Hashem is everywhere, he does not need to “travel”December 24, 2019 10:31 am at 10:31 am #1813535
We find expressions that make our understanding easier as the eyes, mouth of Hashem even though one of thw thirteen belief is that He has no body. We don’t understand how He is everywhere, so, lesaber es haozen, we find a way to make it easier for us to understand. This explains also that He is above the concept of time.December 24, 2019 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1813576Avi KParticipant
CS, what are Torah values? What about a book that accepts the scientific theory of the age the universe and resolves the apparent conflict with Torah? As for novels, their interpretation is up for grabs. Once Agnon (what about his books or Shalom Aleichem’s?) was asked what he meant by something he wrote. He referred the questioner to a well-known literary critic. What about a non-Jewish book about someone overcoming obstacles?December 24, 2019 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1813729
There is an apparent conflict between the Torah and science who determines gender. The Torah says that the woman does, whereas science says that women have 2 x cromosones and man has x and y. So the man who can give an x or y would determine the gender. To reconcile both, we can say that the woman creates an environment that makes the man give the corresponding cromosones.December 24, 2019 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1813731December 24, 2019 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1813785
Sometimes we can learn mussar from a Non-jewish book, The Prince and the Pauper by Mark Twain
(Samuel Clemens) where it demonstrates what is in Pirkei Avos אל תדין את חבירך עד שתגיע למקומו by switching places they learn what the other experiences.December 25, 2019 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1813948Avi KParticipant
Rambam says explicitly in his introduction to Shemoneh Perakim that he learned from non-Jewish writings. There is wisdom among the other nations. Sometimes they even say more or lessthe same as rabbinic sources. For example, John Adams said that the US Constitution is only appropriate for a religious and moral people, The Netziv says in He’emek Devar that the mitzva to appoint a king was conditioned on the people asking for one because some generations need a king and some need a republican form of government. Great minds really do think alike.
L’havdilDecember 25, 2019 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1814084
Avi K Torah values are the values of a Torah lifestyle. How the children speak to the parents. Clean language. Belief in Hashem. Appropriate interactions between males and females. Etc etc. Any non Jewish novel or story book I’ve come across (BH I’ve only had to read a few) has had problematic hashkafos.
Science books are a different story with a different problem. But that problem can be resolved. Novels are just tried. For every good thing you can learn from them they desensitise our holy sensitivities in other areas.December 25, 2019 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1814199
CS, Are you speaking from knowledge? The Rambam says at the end of 17th Perek of Hilchas Kiddush Hachodash that when it comes to Math, we can rely on the goyim because a logical proof is impartial towards religion. Look at the sefer Habris from the 18th century encompassing all the knowledge of his time. So, we cannot generalize but everything must be judged on its merit. When it comes to classics, read a summary by google it, and then decide.December 25, 2019 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1814197
This desentisising is also true in rock and roll.December 25, 2019 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1814252GadolhadorahParticipant
Reb Eliezer…..unfortunately, the lyrics of most rock music are indecipherable anyway so unlikely to cause anyon to go OTD…..as to the melody, if you ban rock and roll, you ban about 50 percent of the music played today at most simchasDecember 25, 2019 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1814256🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“unfortunately, the lyrics of most rock music are indecipherable anyway so unlikely to cause anyon to go OTD”
You do know that’s rubbish, don’t you? It’s not indecipherable to teenagers who listen to it. That’s either a rationalization or sarcasm.December 26, 2019 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1814413MenoParticipant
Very well-said, Syag.
I would like to add that lyrics and melody are not the only aspects of rock music which could influence someone. There is a certain type of lifestyle associated with rock music. Listening to rock music has a tendency to lead a person into that type of lifestyle. I’m not saying it will happen to everyone, but it has happened and will happen to some people.
Wasn’t this thread about books?December 26, 2019 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1814439
I beg to differ
Talk about insidious
A book like Sherlock Holmes is almost totally clean has ”chochma” and if something not so great finds its way in, a kid at least knows it’s not Jewish.
Contrast that to Jewish novels of today which as a relative who was off the derech told me ”are a guidebook for going off the derech ” with everything working out in the last three chapters.
Much worseDecember 26, 2019 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1814448
The theory of relativity is Masechas Yevomos.
Nice.December 26, 2019 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1814450
Contrast that to Jewish novels of today which as a relative who was off the derech told me ”are a guidebook for going off the derech ”
That’s a new one – I’ve heard of OTD people blaming their parents and rebbeim; never Jewish novels.
Frankly, that’s that’s utter nonsense.December 26, 2019 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1814467Elchonon WParticipant
There is no “solution” required to align the Torah with the scientific understanding of the universe.
The Torah isn’t a science book. It is a book on spirituality, on hashkafah, on theology, on the meaning in our lives.
Trying to align it with science is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. They are completely different, and valuable in their own rights, l’havdil.December 26, 2019 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1814495
Elchonon, I think the Rambam in the Moreh Nevuchim, the Malbim quoted above, the Sefer Habris believe that it is a mitzva to reconcile if we can. The Ramban by orlah says that treifos are not healthy. We have a rule עולם כמנהגו נוהג. The gemora in Shabbos at story of the man nursing, one view is how ugly it is that nature had to change for him because he will lose his zechusim. Something like Darvin’s theory is against modern science as Newton said I am standing on great shoulders indicating that peiple before him were smarter. The Klei Yokor in Parashas Chukas uses the theory of Newton before him, opposites react by explaining the functioning of the parah aduma to a certain extent.December 26, 2019 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1814505
That’s a new one – I’ve heard of OTD people blaming their parents and rebbeim; never Jewish novels.
Frankly, that’s that’s utter nonsense.
so you dont believe people are influenced by what they read. nice.
remind me again whats the problem with reading non jewish books?December 26, 2019 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1814523
so you dont believe people are influenced by what they read. nice.
Of course I do. I don’t think happy endings are sending people OTD.December 26, 2019 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1814547
i meant the fact that the whole book glorifies the life of people otd
at the last page everything ends happily ever after
that wont undo a full books worth of insidiousness
how you even remotely thought i meant what you wrote, ill never figure outDecember 26, 2019 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1814574
I have no idea which book you’re talking about, but you can’t generalize that all Jewish books (I mean the ones published by and for frum people) are bad because you found a small minority which you found problematic.
Same way you can’t generalize that secular books are okay because you found a small minority that are clean.December 26, 2019 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1814577
We can learn from peoples and animals behavior good, what to do, or bad, what not to do.December 26, 2019 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1814602
Gabi Ben-Dor, a seasoned private eye, is in hot pursuit of a rogue doctor whose negligence has cost lives.
A diabolical plan for terror, years in the making.
A reluctant attorney in a battle between evil and good.
Shea Berman’s life is about to implode.
It happened so quickly: Shea Berman went from being a respected member of his Lakewood community, an attorney on the fast-track to success, and a loving son, husband, and father, to a pariah fighting to keep his job, his reputation, his family – and his life.
When forced by his ruthless, and hugely successful, law firm to defend the man accused of brutally attacking Shea’s own rebbe, Shea is drawn into a plot that spans years and continents. The stakes are high, as Shea and an unlikely band of allies including an angry district attorney, an elderly Pakistani father, and an incorrigible FBI agent try to uncover the truth, both in the courtroom and on the dangerous streets of Brooklyn and Jenin.
Fatal Judgment is a riveting legal thriller that will keep readers on edge from the first vivid encounter with American justice to the explosive climax.
Yossi is defiant. His father is overbearing. His mother is protective. It’s a volatile mixture that explodes in this can’t-put-down novel.
Need I go on??
This is a random sampling of the current crop of novels being offered by the premier Jewish publishing company.
Anything goes as long as its not male female related.
True it’s not all but if you don’t want to generalize Jewish novels, don’t generalize non Jewish ones either.December 26, 2019 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1814614
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not.December 26, 2019 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1814624
I’m being completely seriousDecember 26, 2019 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1814636
So you think reading novels such as Fatal Judgement makes people go OTD?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.