Non Jewish Funerals

Do whatever you are comfortable with after consultation with your LRP. There are different types of memorial “services” held in “churches” or religiously focused facilities which may have dual usage, with different types of art and physical representation of goyishe deities. Each case may be different and there are exceptions to rules of general applicability.

My Rav told me to go to the wake rather than the funeral when I asked the shilah. The deceased was in an open coffin wearing a suit which he never did in the 20 years I knew him. He looked great!
I assume there are hetarim for a Chief Rabbi to attend a state funeral.

Avodah zara and abuzrayhu are part of the 3 chamuros. They’re something we don’t do to save a life. We don’t find that you can violate the 3 chamuros meshum aivah, or supposed “chilul Hashem”

@ujm, eating chazir is an explicit prohibition in the Torah (must have split hooves and chew its cud). I’m not denying any source’s legitimacy when saying that entering a church is forbidden. However, please recognize the right to other opinions, especially when that opinion is from someone who is a greater talmid chacham than anyone on this site.

Typical Joseph, when confronted with things, he puts out outlandish scenarios and tries to make a comparison between them.
Joseph, we actually allow chillul Shabbos due to fear of how non-Jews may react, in cases of saving someone’s life. So yes, there may be times when eating pig is permissible to avoid future issues. Obviously it would take a big Rav to make such a psak, but it’s not so far-fetched.

@ujm, Have you ever learned מסכת עבודה זרה? Already in the beginning, there are opinions (פירושים) which, when discussing the relationship one can have with an ‘עובד ע”ז, תוס says it is permissible to do business with them even on their holidays, for the same reason. Despite the גמ’ saying otherwise, משום איבה. But I doubt you know that because you probably haven’t learned it. The basis for entering a church under some circumstances comes from the same general area.
@common saychel, I refer to Rabbi Sacks ZT”L and Rabbi Mirvis Shli”ta when I refer to people who are greater talmidei chachamim than anyone on this site.

@common saychel, did I ever say that was the case? None of the gedolim you just mentioned were on this site. I’m not comparing; merely pointing out the difference between people who post on here PRETENDING to know what they’re talking about and an actual rav.

With due respect for their service to klal Yisroel the chief rabbis of the Commonwealth lehavdil bayn chaim lchaim did and do not look upon themselves as poskim.. They should be respected as figureheads for the Jewish communities and service to the communities, but they are not serious poskim from which we should learn halacha!

I love how the terms darchei sholom and mipnei aivah are thrown around haphazardly.

I don’t know if he actually said those things; he was a thinker and statesman, not a posek – neither were most of the chief rabbis. R. Hertz saved jews during the war, but it doesn’t make his use of bible critics “when they’re right” any less wrong. Same here.

As for the various Chief Rabbis, they may none of them have been world-class poskim, but so what? It suffices that all of them have been far greater talmidei chachomim than anyone posting on this forum. More importantly, they have been the morei d’asra in the UK, and therefore they had the full halachic authority and responsibility to pasken on the matter, and their psak MUST be recognized as the authoritative one, even if you will find some greater talmid chochom who disagreed. That is how halacha works.

Would Chief Rabbis have authority in their own right, without being poskim?! They may be right or wrong, they may or not consult poskim, but they have a position of authority to make these decisions and that should be respected, unless they are consistently out of line with halakha.

Also, where do Anglicans stand on the spectrum towards A’Z? I presume way below Roman temples, Catholics and Orthodox. So, the issurim of visiting those places may not be at the most severe level.

The Chasam Sofer was asked, is it permitted for women to sing in a shul to honor the King? He said, no and the respect is not to do it thereby showing that the king is merciful and does ‘not’ require us to do anything against halacha.

smerel > government appointed official is no more of an authority on Halacha

indeed, this was the case in Lita under Russia. R Salanter was offered a position leading a Russian school system. He seriously considered accepting it so that he could have some influence, but decided to go other way around so that there will be no confusion between government and real Rabbis. I don’t think, though, that this is a situation in England and the Queen did not select who the Rabbi is. Rather than speculating, I am sure we have some chaps here who can clarify.

>>>R. Hertz saved jews during the war, but it doesn’t make his use of bible critics “when they’re right” any less wrong

It does however make people like Rabbi Sacks have a much stronger argument that they are allowed to enter a church for a civic function when invited by the king or queen.

Do you think that had Rabbi Hertz (who was also criticized in the 1920s for attending such a event) snubbed those invitations and expectations he would been in as much of a position to save Jews during WWII?

Smerel, are you engaging in “the ends justifies the means”?

He was able to save jews; even if that was due to his entering churches, and if he didn’t he wouldn’t be in that position(unlikely, because fulfilling the Torah raises our esteem among the nations) Hashem would have found a different shliach.

Chazal allowed emissaries to do many things. I don’t know why referring to entering a church is being reduced to “they allowed stam yainom, kal vechomer churches” – who told you entering a church is a small thing? Stam yainom is derabonon. I’m not sure what particular issur entering a church is, but i believe it’s abuzrayhu AZ, which is deoraysoh.

Re, protestants/Catholics. The only issue that’s “less” AZ is the lack of statues. The theology is more or less the same; they both believe in the trinity, pray to yushke(Catholics allow praying to mary, protestants don’t) and believe in yushke as godly r”l. That makes their worship 100% AZ for jews, and shituf for goyim, which according to a minority opinion might not be in the 7 mitzvos.

That’s if a religious service is being held in the church, including any prayer service. Even the British national anthem includes an element of prayer, as it says “g-d save the queen/king” – who, in a church, are they referring to when they ask their god to save the queen/king? That’s a serious issue

>>>To the best of knowlege the last major talmud chocom in goverment service was Rav Meir Shapiro and he was in the Semp, not CR

The Reise Rav (Rabbi Aharon Lewin) and Rav Alexander Zusia Friedman (author of the Meyaneh Shel Torah) Hashem Yinkom Domom were among the Agudah elected members of the Sejm after him

The Ponivitcher Rov was also a member of the Lithuanian parliament after that.

As far as chief rabbis go: Rabbi Yehuda Levin, chief rabbi of Moscow (died 1970) was also a major a Talmid Chochom, a close chaver of Rav Yaakov Kamenstsky from when they learned together in Slobadka.

Given his position he also did controversial things. His life and success as chief rabbi depended his acting like a Soviet Union propagandist and claiming that the Jews are NOT being persecuted there.

When he came to the US in 1968 secular Jewish groups hounded and heckled him . It was the lhavdil elef havdolas Gedoley Torah like Rav Moshe and Rav Yaakov who stood by him and apparently agreed with him that it is worth saying Soviet propaganda in exchange for maintaining some semblance of Jewish life in Russia such as shul activities and matzoh-baking etc.

When he spoke at secular venues there was open jeering at him because of the Soviet propaganda about the treatment of Jews there that he had to say . When he spoke at the Sefardsher shul in Boro Park Rav Yaakov Kamenstsky introduced him with the highest amount of respect talking about how we are about hear from the most chosuv alumni of Slabodka etc.(although he did hint that you have to understand that Rabbi Levin is speaking in code) The crowd which included many Talemdey Chachomim listened to him and accorded the highest respect .Even the streets around the shul were packed with police and police barricades to prevent the mob of people who wanted to meet him and hear from him.

Rabbi Dr. Yosef Burg z’tz’l was a big Talmid Chacham. He founded the National Religious Party and served in the Cabinet and the Knesset for years.

Rabbi Yehuda Amital z’tz’l was a big Talmid Chacham who served briefly in the Cabinet.

Some of the past Chief Rabbis of Israel have been among the gedolim of the generation. Rabbi Ovadia Yosef z’tz’l was one of the gedolim of all generations; Rabbi Yitzhak Herzog z’tz’l was Chief Rabbi of two different countries.

There is a lot of hakachic literature about Karov HaMelech. There are things that people close to the rulers must do that would not be permitted for the rest of us.

> Rabbi Goldshmidt is not a govermental appointee and hold no offical position

So he does not have to go back and attend Putin’s funeral? And the other chief rabbis also? Some good news.

Smerel, the chief rabbi is NOT appointed by the government! He is appointed by the United Synagogue, which is the organization he is chief rabbi of. He is not chief rabbi of those Jews not affiliated with the US, such as the Chareidim, the Sefardim, and the various heretical sects. So the whole question of government appointment is irrelevant.

AAQ, the Anglican church is theologically very diverse. Within the Anglican church you have a split between “High Church” which is closer to Catholicism and “Low Church” which is far away from it. Historically there were bitter struggles between these factions. But in general, and especially at a “High Church” church such as Westminster Abbey, there’s much more of an avoda zara problem than, for instance, at a Reformed Church, or the Puritan churches of the 18th century.

And no, the difference goes well beyond statues. In fact statues are not really that much of a problem. Kosher they’re not, but comparatively speaking they’re small change. The one thing in a Catholic church that is absolutely 100% unmistakable avoda zara is the “consecrated Host”. Almost all protestants, including even most High Church Anglicans, reject the doctrine of transsubstantiation, and therefore the problem is smaller. And most protestants don’t even have the whole concept.

All other issues with Xianity are less important. It’s questionable whether worshiping J. is avoda zara at all. They mistakenly believe that he is HKBH, so when they worship him their intent is to worship HKBH, rather than a rival god. (The same is true with the Host, but that is a physical object. When you believe that a physical object is HKBH, and you bow down to it, I don’t see how that can be anything but classic avoda zara.)

I, in 1968 worked at Chemical Bank wearing a yarmulka.

אכשר דרא

Boruch Hashem we are past such things.