Non Jewish Funerals
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- This topic has 74 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Always_Ask_Questions.
September 16, 2022 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2125445
Avira, right, I heard, I think, from R Nosson Sherman that multi-culti philosophy is generally a disaster, but allowed up to build a better community comparing with previous “melting pot” pressure. So, maybe for every NYT article, we need to thank Hashem for how comparatively easy we have it, comparing to other times and cultures.September 18, 2022 8:48 am at 8:48 am #2125701
@Milhouse, Modern was the one who listed Dr Burg as a example of a Rav who was in goverment service, If Dr. Burg had no issue with being bareheaded in EY regardless of where he was raised, then you can not put in the same class of Rav Meir Shapiro ZTL, Rav Nosson Levine ZTL, Rave Koppel Reich ZTL, who all served in a SECULAR goverement and would never dream of going bareheaded.September 18, 2022 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #2125840
I just heard in the discussion of the Queen’s demise that R Soloveichik paskened not to watch the mass part of JFK funeral, because, if I understood correctly, Pope said that one can do that mass over TV, thus it being a mamash a’z.September 18, 2022 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2125841
CS, R Meir Shapiro et al did not “serve” in the government. Do you understand the difference between elected and civil service? Elected officials represent their voters, so even a frei Jewish politician might put a kippah once in a while. There is no downside. Maybe it also says something about Polish state during the interwar period where ethnic activities were in the open even if under some pressure, contrary to other states that were trying to erase those. I presume institutions in EY were under political control, so one had to deal with it. Note, that even Avira here says that he is called Rabbi when teaching kodesh, and Mr when teaching chol. Would you say he should stand up for the honor of his Rebbeim who gave him semicha or stick to his parnosah?September 18, 2022 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #2125947
@AAQ, yes I undrestand the difference betwwen being elected and civil service because unlike you I did both, and I never took off my yalmuka on either one.
I also worked in the corperate world and I never took off my yalmulka, not even in Barbados, Cayman Islands or Montana, I also made it a point to tell my business associates that I am just a torah observant Jew and not a Rabbi. for someone who uses the title Rabbi even part of the time and goes bareheaded is a real shanda and chillul hashem.September 18, 2022 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #2125959
CS, I do the same re:kippah as you do (except I was not elected or worked for civil service, you seem to have an interesting career), but somehow I do not have such visceral reaction to those who do not, even in our, supposedly more tolerant, times. Esav soneh Yaakov is still the halocha and some people feel it more than others. In some cases, it might be a menchlich thing to do. Say, you are a lawyer representing a client and the jury may be negatively affected by your yarmolka. I would think that your responsibility to the client would be to not wear it. Or, you are a doctor in an area, where people think Jews have horns. You may find that patients trust you more if you don’t have to show each of them that there are no horns under your headcover.
You did not answer, though, how is it tolerable to take Avira’s smicha away for the sin of teaching maths.September 18, 2022 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #2126042ujmParticipant
“Esav soneh Yaakov is still the halocha”
Esav soneh Yaakov does not mean Yaakov should become a little more like Esav to make him less hateful.September 18, 2022 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #2126061
@AAQ, Avira was called MR. he did not go bareheaded.
I have had serveral occasions where I was the first frum person they ever met and I am mindfull of the way I conduct myself.
There was story where someone asked Reb Moshe for a heter to shave during the nine days for a meeting, Reb Moshe ZTL said there is no heter for such, at the meeting the man said you can trust me because im a Othodox Jew, the other person said, Orthodox people dont shave this time of year yet you shaved, If you dont hold true to your religion I cant trust you and the deal was off.
If a so called Rabbi walks four cubits bareheaded, the trust is gone and he is no longer a Orthodox Rabbi.
As to my Career, I worked private sector for a number of years, then worked for the city and went back into the private sector.
I was elected to the local board, [ its a pt position and meets twice a month] and served for two terms before the demands of job required me to give it up.September 20, 2022 12:15 am at 12:15 am #2126468
CS > Avira was called MR
Just had in ketubot another Rav sending a message to R Huna addressing him as “Huna” – and gets severely dressed down. In my view, denying someone’s Torah learning is a bigger insult, especially coming from a “frum” person.
Again, I do respect your sensitivity and I am on your side. I also do not tell people “trust me because I am an Orthodox Jew”.
On a personal note, I am not big on titles, and never introduce myself as Dr. AAQ, just firstname. Some people for some reason call me Mr. AAQ, and that is OK. But one person with whom we had some disagreements always calls me “Mr. AAQ”. I was wondering whether I can respond with “Mr. X” instead of R’ and whether I should do it publicly. You seem to suggest that this would be fine.September 20, 2022 12:16 am at 12:16 am #2126469
> Esav soneh Yaakov does not mean Yaakov should become a little more like Esav to make him less hateful.
Not annoying Esav is the original Yaakov’s tactic. Maybe we need to look at the context: volunteering without yarmolka to a after-office beer party is one thing; representing a client in front of a jury is different.September 20, 2022 7:27 am at 7:27 am #2126496
Not annoying Esav is the original Yaakov’s tactic. Maybe we need to look at the context: volunteering without yarmolka to a after-office beer party is one thing; representing a client in front of a jury is different.
And a so called Rabbi walking around bareheaded is yet a thirdSeptember 20, 2022 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #2126737
הלא אח עשו ליעקב, Esav acts like a brother to Yaakov by thinking he will change him, but Yaakov does not trust his fake brotherliness to go after him, so Hashem loves Yaakov but not Esav.September 20, 2022 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #2126854
Many rabonim are warning us that a friendly Esav is more dangerous to us than a non-friendly one. I wonder whether we just push our faults on him and essentially ask Hashem for prosecution, has vesholom … Maybe we should rather become mature enough to learn to deal with Esav… Yaakov was afraid of meeting him, no doubt, but he prepared and he dealt with the issue. He could have gone to the desert towards Mecca. And Esav’s head ended up @ Machpelah, and maybe did even better with the shidduch to Dinah … tzarich iyun.September 25, 2022 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2127919
The reason that only Esav’s head ended up in Meoras Hapachpela as his heart was not in line with what he said.September 25, 2022 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2127925AviraDeArahParticipant
Reb E, I always heard that it’s because his mind had holy thoughts, but his heart and body went after his taavosSeptember 25, 2022 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #2127951
Avira, I don’t think he had holy thoughts in his mind when according to the Targum Yonasan on הנה אנכי הולך למות, I will die and who cares what happens after that, he denied after life. He said what people wanted to hear but his heart was not in it.September 25, 2022 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2127954
Maybe he had holey (full of holes) thoughts.September 25, 2022 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #2127955
Whatever it is, there is something in his head, and we need to acknowledge that even if we need to fight his influence.
A similar discussion is about whether Yaakov should have made a shidduch between Dina and Esav instead of boxing her. Some of baalei Mussar (R Salanter?) says maybe Yaakov was correct hiding Dina but he was wrong about being so enthusiastic about locking the box, some sadness that it was not possible to help the brother was appropriate. That means we should mind our safety, but look for opportunities to help even those who attack us.September 27, 2022 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2127983
Who has the influence on whom? Will she have the influence on him or will he have the influence on her? Yaakov Avinu over here learned from his mother Rivkah and did not want to risk this marriage.September 28, 2022 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2128090
how did we morph from if a jew can go to a non jewish funeral to a debate over yakov and esav?September 28, 2022 2:03 am at 2:03 am #2128098DovidBTParticipant
how did we morph from if a jew can go to a non jewish funeral to a debate over yakov and esav?
Is that a trick question?September 28, 2022 2:03 am at 2:03 am #2128103
Esav came to Yaakov’s funeral and, at the same time, all Yidden in the world (at the time) came to his.September 28, 2022 3:33 am at 3:33 am #2128108Sam KleinParticipant
Where does it say that all Yidden at the time attended Eisav funeral?September 28, 2022 8:16 am at 8:16 am #2128182
When it comes to influence, a bad apple destroys the good and not the good apple makes the bad good.September 28, 2022 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #2128336
> Where does it say that all Yidden at the time attended Eisav funeral?
All Yaakov’s children and mishpaha came to Yaakov’s funeral and Eisav’s beheading happened at the same place & time. So, they could not be accused of “going to” Eisav’s funeral.
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