December 12, 2011 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1111728☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Can someone tell me what Prust means?
Not tzniusdik (but “prust” is more blunt).December 12, 2011 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1111729
<mdd -“Health, prust is not a halachic term. For chukos ha’goyim issur, it has to be pritsusdic. Red clothing causes reactions in men. To me something that is Prust is Pritzusdick! Even long hair and weird haircuts is Ossur from the S’A -this is even worse”>
Health, you appear to be paskening from your own Shulchan Aruch. The issur of chukas hagoyim is only tangentially related to pritzus. For instance, many hold that the custom of upsheren is based on Christian “breaching” ceremonies and is therefore assur als chukas hagoyim. Chukas hagoyim refers to all specific customs of the goyim not just pritzus.
The fact that you don’t like a particular style is just that, you don’t like it. Your likes and dislikes don’t constitute normative halacha.
P.S. The color read is frowned upon, not because it has any effect on men (maybe bulls) but because it is associated with ga’avah.December 12, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1111730
I do second R. Kaufman, except for his statement about red. Red is also pritsusdic, a color of Yetser Ha’ra( the Sotan). There are mekoros for this. Skiaddict, you are girl. As a man, I’m telling you it’s pritsusdic.December 12, 2011 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1111731
So what is the difference between Prust and Prizut
(I dont speak yiddish)December 12, 2011 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1111732bptParticipant
” the difference between Prust and Prizut ”
Prust would be used to describe an action
Prizut would be used to describe a behavior, or the way a person conducts themselves.
In a sentence, either of the two could be used. Lets put it this way, either word refers to things that are not, shall we say, virtuous.
Do you have a language other that English? If so, I could find a word that you might convey the idea a bit betterDecember 12, 2011 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1111733
It’s scientifically shown that red is the most arousing basic color. Whether it’s arousing enough to be inherently Assur depends on the Minhag Hamakom.December 12, 2011 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1111734skiaddictMember
So is that why the devil is always red? I thought THAT was a goyshe thing!December 13, 2011 1:35 am at 1:35 am #1111735
Nope not really only really speak English although I can convey a simple conversation in Hebrew and SpanishDecember 13, 2011 5:43 am at 5:43 am #1111736
DaasYochid -“Health, You can’y assert that a nose ring is inherently pritzus if the Imahos wore them.”
It could have become inherently since then. Odom Harishon didn’t wear clothes at the beginning -then later it became Pritzus. So things change because of awareness. He wasn’t aware that humans felt the need to cover up -once he ate and got that awareness -it’s now Pritzus to go without clothes. So nose rings then – have nothing to do with now, unless this was handed down in every generation, which it wasn’t.December 13, 2011 5:54 am at 5:54 am #1111737
Raphael Kaufman -“The issur of chukas hagoyim is only tangentially related to pritzus. For instance, many hold that the custom of upsheren is based on Christian “breaching” ceremonies and is therefore assur als chukas hagoyim. Chukas hagoyim refers to all specific customs of the goyim not just pritzus.”
True, but included in that is Pritzus, which would include Nose rings and other piercings. Why confuse the issue with other things that are also Ossur?
“The fact that you don’t like a particular style is just that, you don’t like it. Your likes and dislikes don’t constitute normative halacha.”
Also, true. But I’m not basing my opinion on whether I like nose rings or not. I’m basing it on the guidelines that I found in YD 178!!!December 13, 2011 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1111738☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
We’re in agreement, except on the meaning of the word “inherently”.December 13, 2011 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1111739
Health, something is considered pritsusdic if it is provocative vis-a-vis men-women. A nose ring is clearly not.December 13, 2011 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1111740
Health, what about earrings? What’s the difference?December 13, 2011 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1111741
Health, I didn’t say that pritzus couldn’t be an issur of chukas. I said that chukas hagoyim does not necessarily involve pritzus. Putting up a “Channukah bush” is assur als chukas hagoyim (not avodas zorah) but I fail to see any shemetz of pritzus in it.
Personally, I think nose rings are disgusting (ever see what happens when the wearer has a cold?) but to asser them based on personal oppinion is not a valid option. The standards of Jewish female adornment has always followed the general practice. For instance, hair coivering for married women was based on the societal standard in the zman hagemorah. Women cover their hair today because the Chachamim were gozer based on the above, notwithstanding that the custom is not followed today in the general population (vide Aruch haShulchan). No such gezeirah was issued on adornments so they continue to follow the general custom such as earings, necklaces, rings, brooches, etc. If nose rings are worn by the general population of women, they are muttar, disgusting, but muttar. Please also note that the general requirements of tznius still apply.December 13, 2011 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1111742lasry02Member
According to the Halachah there was never an Issur for a woman to pierce her nose. In fact according to the Chasam Sofer, a man may also do so nowadays since men do so. (the Chasam Sofer says that we would go after the non-jewish men in this instance even though the Jewish men don’t normally pierce their ears or nose. Which is why the Chasam Sofer would hold a man may dye his hair as well since the non-jewish men do so.December 13, 2011 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1111743vadimParticipant
So why aren’t ear lobe piercings considered Prust? Who decides that one ornament embedded in flesh is just jewelry and another is overtly sensual? And is the nose really more attractive than the ear?December 13, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1111744
DaasYochid -“We’re in agreement, except on the meaning of the word “inherently”.”
Ok, take that word out of my post -it definitely wasn’t my main point.December 13, 2011 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1111745
lasry02 -“According to the Halachah there was never an Issur for a woman to pierce her nose. In fact according to the Chasam Sofer, a man may also do so nowadays since men do so. (the Chasam Sofer says that we would go after the non-jewish men in this instance even though the Jewish men don’t normally pierce their ears or nose. Which is why the Chasam Sofer would hold a man may dye his hair as well since the non-jewish men do so.”
Where is this Chasam Sofer -I’d like to look it up?December 14, 2011 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1111747
mdd -“Health, what about earrings? What’s the difference?”
I personally don’t like earrings, but these have been worn through every generation -so it’s Mutter.December 14, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1111748
Raphael Kaufman -“The standards of Jewish female adornment has always followed the general practice. No such gezeirah was issued on adornments so they continue to follow the general custom such as earings, necklaces, rings, brooches, etc. If nose rings are worn by the general population of women, they are muttar, disgusting, but muttar.”
I’m not sure whether your Sevara is a normal Sevara or a Boich Sevara, but either way you must bring a valid proof to it.
A comparison to hair covering is Not a proof, because you could compare it to clothes and certain clothing are Ossur (eg. Red dresses). Without a proof from Halacha you can’t say Mutter even if you would have a valid Sevara because this is an Issur D’oraysa. And even If your Sevara makes it into a Sofek -A Sofek D’oraysa is Ossur acc. to Halacha!December 14, 2011 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1111749
I’d like to quote a “Chochmas Odom” and from his words you will see this is most probably Ossur: (I tried to copy & paste the Hebrew version here, but I couldn’t do it. I’m into medicine, not computers.)
“Klal 89 -We don’t go in the Chukos of the Ackum and we don’t do similar things like them -Not in clothing, not in hair and Things Like This, etc.
You shouldn’t say -since the Goyim go out with purple clothes, so will I, etc.
But Yisroel (Jews) have to be different from them and they must know this with their clothes and with their other Maisav (doings) just like they are different with their thoughts, etc.”
To me, this is pretty Poshut that “Things Like This” would surely include piercings which includes things like nose rings!December 14, 2011 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #1111750
Health, the bottom line is that you say that nose rings are “probably assur” and I think that they are probably muttar (but disgusting). Let’s blayb by a teiku.
P.S. This machlokes only applies to nose and extra ear piercings (which are also revolting). Piercing other body parts, which has become somewhat popular in the general population, is, in my opinion, vadai assur as they are clearly related to pritzus.December 14, 2011 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1111751
Raphael Kaufman -“Health, the bottom line is that you say that nose rings are “probably assur” and I think that they are probably muttar (but disgusting).”
No human being can say for sure about anything, unless they have Nevuah.
After reading the Chocmas Odom, it’s as close as you can get to being 100% Ossur!!!!December 14, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #1111752
Health: You’re being ridiculous. You want something to be Assur, smack on a D’Oraisa on it, and then say the burden of proof is on those who want to Mattir? Come on. Anyone can invent an Issur for anything. You need to show me something is Assur to make it Assur. You’re taking a phrase “and other things” and applying it to make something that you personally don’t like Assur? That’s not the way Halacha works and you (hopefully) know it. I agree that I presonally find nose rings disturbing. That doesn’t mean that I can transform it into an Issur D’Oraisa.
Here, I can do the same thing that you do. The Goyim sometimes snap their fingers. There. I just created an Issue D’Oraisa and to be Mattir it you need to bring me a source. So go ahead, find me somewhere in Halacha that explicitly states that snapping is Muttar. Until you do you have to assume that it’s Assur because it’s D’Oraisa. So find me a source that it’s Muttar. You see how ridiculous that is?December 14, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1111753
Sam2 – Are you thinking straight or do you just like arguing with me???
Nose rings is Very similar to clothing and hair. These are done for people to look at, not like snapping your fingers. So why would a person want to wear a nose ring? Because their mothers and grandmothers and e/o up the line did it or because it’s the style? You know they want it because it’s the style and this style is by the Goyim -it didn’t originate in our generation amongst the Jews! This is exactly what the Chocmas Odom says is an Issur D’oraysa -picking up a style from the goyim and doing what they do! It doesn’t matter whether this style is for clothing or for hair or for piercings or for anything else!
Got it????December 14, 2011 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1111754
Health, it is so poshut that I do not think I need to say anything more. I will take another shot at your arguments, however.
Do not give these me these ultra-Yeshiveshe zachen of “this was worn for generation, and that was not” (which is basically the whole mekor for your opinion!). Do not put into Chaye Adam something which is not there.
For something to be assur because of chukos ha’Goyim, it has to be pritsusdic. The nose ring is not objectively so. It is no different than an earring It does not matter what was worn and what was not!!!December 14, 2011 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1111755
I am thinking perfectly straight. You don’t like something and are therefore screaming “Issur D’Oraisa”. I’m done here as well. Enjoy Assuring nose rings and snapping. And Chas Veshalom don’t ever let anyone wear clothes that have any sense of style whatsoever. If it’s not for Pritzus then it’s not Chukas Hagoyim, regardless of “style”.December 15, 2011 5:04 am at 5:04 am #1111756
mdd -“this was worn for generation, and that was not”
I was trying to explain why earrings aren’t Ossur -we didn’t get the idea of wearing them from the Goyim.
“(which is basically the whole mekor for your opinion!).”
Absolutely not. My Mekor is the Chocmas Odom.
“Do not put into Chaye Adam something which is not there.”
I did Not -He says Klor what I posted above.
“For something to be assur because of chukos ha’Goyim, it has to be pritsusdic.”
I understand your mistake because that’s an impression you can get from just reading the S’A. But after reading the Chocmas Odom it’s because we have to dress and look different than the Goyim.
Dressing Pritzusdik is a different ball game. You can dress not Tziniusdik and not be Oiver Chukas Hagoyim. Before you continue screaming -look it up!
Btw, do have an anger problem that you blow up everytime s/o disagrees with you?December 15, 2011 5:13 am at 5:13 am #1111757
Sam2 -“You don’t like something and are therefore screaming “Issur D’Oraisa”.”
Really??? I don’t like earrings and I said they aren’t Ossur to wear.
“I’m done here as well.”
“Enjoy Assuring nose rings and snapping.”
YOU said snapping was Ossur, not me!
“And Chas Veshalom don’t ever let anyone wear clothes that have any sense of style whatsoever.”
If they are the first Yidden to wear a style that came out amongst the Goyim -it might very well be a problem.
“If it’s not for Pritzus then it’s not Chukas Hagoyim, regardless of “style”.”
That’s your mistake. See my post to mdd!December 15, 2011 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1111758
Health, now I understand what happened — you followed the words of the Chochmas Odom which follow the pashtus of the words of the Rambam. We, however, do not go like this le’Halocha. Look in Kesef Mishna on that Rambam.
If did pasken like this, we would have a big problem as almost everything we wear originally came from the Goyim.December 15, 2011 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1111759
Ramo is matir to wear special doctor’s suits which were worn by the Goyishe doctors in his time.December 16, 2011 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1111760
mdd – Who are you to say -we don’t Pasken like this? We always go after the last Achron for Halacha. The only time you can say we don’t Pasken like the Achron if there are other contemporaries that argue.
In other words you have no idea why the Chocmas Odom said what he said – maybe he holds like the Rambam or maybe he learns this in the S’A.
So if you want a Heter to do what you want regarding nose rings or anything else of this sort -find s/o whom argues with this Chocmas Odom that came after the S’A. It’s possible that there are, but right now you have to listen to the Chocmas Odom.
Just saying it’s the Rambam and the Mechaber argues on this Rambam in the Kesef Mishna – isn’t good enough!December 16, 2011 4:37 am at 4:37 am #1111762
Look in the Kesef Mishna, the Beis Yosef does not argue — he has a mesora on the pshat in the Rambam.
About the final psak, ask a Posek — he’ll confirm what I’m saying. “Igros Moshe” has a teshuva(teshuvos) about it. I think he writes like I wrote to you. Double check there.December 16, 2011 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1111763
mdd – How about some Mareh M’komos?December 16, 2011 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #1111764treble clefMember
SJS, just wondering – why is a belly peircing ok after marrying and not before?December 18, 2011 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1111765lemaysaMember
Health while according to your interpitation of halacha may make it sound as if it is assur for many reasons..(btw i asked a few poskim if theres any halachic basis to ur claim and was given the negative to that) the level of tznius and hakpada in translation of halacha leaves me wondering where you have a heter to be on the internet which by all means may have more of a issur involved of pritzus … then a nose ringDecember 18, 2011 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1111766
lemaysa -“Health while according to your interpitation of halacha may make it sound as if it is assur for many reasons”
Numero uno -It’s not my interpretation -this is what the Chocmas Odom says outright!
“..(btw i asked a few poskim if theres any halachic basis to ur claim and was given the negative to that)”
I actually asked “mdd” for Mareh M’komos. I have no problem Not Paskening like the Chocmas Odom if s/o Proves differently. So instead of saying I asked Poiskim -go find out why these Poiskim say what they do and bring me some Mareh M’komos!
“where you have a heter to be on the internet”
Why are you mixing Boidem Mit Klutz? What does one thing have to do with another? I’m not here to copy their style!!!
The only Issur of being like the Goyim is when it changes your outward appearance. I might be a little fatter than otherwise because I’m a couch potato, but other than this -there is No outward change!December 19, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1111767
“… just wondering – why is a belly peircing ok after marrying and not before? “
Without agreeing or disagreeing with this formula, I think the reason would be as follows:
After the wedding, she can do whatever she wants, providing her husband knows about it and agrees. Before the wedding, she may not tell him, and he will never know until after the wedding (this is a private body part not exposed before the wedding). In this case, the question of mekach ta’us would arise, where the buyer feels he has been fooled and did not receive what he thought he would. In a case where the husband may say “Had I known you had this piercing I would never have married you”, this would become quite a serious issue.
Beyond that, my opinion is that the issur of chukas hagoyim as far as dress goes is quite difficult to transgress nowadays. I guess wearing a nun’s habit or priest’s collar might do it, but not much else.December 19, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1111768
Old man: Have you seen the Chabad picture of the guy dressed up like Santa Claus wearing Tefillin?December 19, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1111769
old man -“Beyond that, my opinion is that the issur of chukas hagoyim as far as dress goes is quite difficult to transgress nowadays. I guess wearing a nun’s habit or priest’s collar might do it, but not much else.”
Your opinion seems to be the general consensus around here.
But what do you people do with the Chochmas Odom?December 20, 2011 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1111770pbj223Member
all i know is that i, and i assume most other men, would NEVER want to marry a girl who has a nose piercingDecember 20, 2011 8:51 am at 8:51 am #1111771
I haven’t seen a picture of a person dressed as Santa Claus wearing tefillin, nor do I care to. I think it’s in poor taste, but not assur. I have seen a picture of a trail of sibling children from Me’ah She’arim on Purim all dressed as Santa, walking down the main street in that neighborhood. I found that amusing, but also not assur. I am sure they had no clue what they were wearing.
To me it is obvious that hair/dressing/talking like goyim is a dynamic issur that changes its nature and scope depending on time, place and cultural norms and expectations. In my opinion, one has to have real intent to “be like a goy and not like a Jew” in order to transgress. The Chochmas Adam emphasizes the intent here and not a specific action. The principle of the Chochmas Adam applies, but the details have changed. Again I maintain that nowadays one must try very hard to violate this commandment, and this would be quite rare. A nose ring,therefore ,is muttar.
I know more than a few women with nose rings who are married. It’s really not an issue beyond personal taste.December 20, 2011 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1111772
old man -“To me it is obvious that hair/dressing/talking like goyim is a dynamic issur that changes its nature and scope depending on time, place and cultural norms and expectations. In my opinion, one has to have real intent to “be like a goy and not like a Jew” in order to transgress. The Chochmas Adam emphasizes the intent here and not a specific action.”
Well actually the Chochmas Odom does get into detail and doesn’t really emphasize intent. Look it up inside and then come post why you don’t think it applies.December 20, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1111773
<em > talking like goyim
Last I checked we are all speaking ENGLISH here (And I belive some poskim do forbid speaking of English in E”Y)December 21, 2011 11:48 am at 11:48 am #1111774
To be fair, I carefully read the Chochmos Adam. He absolutely emphasizes intent, namely , that the issur is when someone says “because he (the goy o.m.)dresses like this, I will dress like this, etc…. The examples he gives are plentiful, and all of them are directly related to a desire to be like the goy, or when the goy demands that the Jew be like him, in which case the issur is stricter.
According to the “nose-ring-is-assur point of view, a bigger problem is with human hair or synthetic sheitels that portend to imitate goyish hairstyles. After all, there can be no real Jewish hair styles for women, they cover their hair! Therefore, all sheitel styles are ipsi facto imitating the goyim and should be assur..
This way of thinking is of course nonsense, as no Jewish woman picks a wig style in order to “look like the goyim”. So too, I see nothing inherent in nose piercing that indicates that a woman who chooses to do so is doing so “to be like the goyim”. Same with almost everything we do, whether it be ear piercing, nose piercing, clothes, makeup, nailpolish or whatever else. It’s all permissible.December 21, 2011 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1111775
old man – C’mon -of course you have to have intent, but what is their intent? Why is one dress nicer than another? Why is a nose ring nicer than not having one? The only answer I can come up with is they want to be “In Style”. So whose style? These styles are started by the Goyim and they want to have the same styles. This to me is exactly what the Chochmas Odom says is Ossur.
Shaitles are a different ball game. I’m not going into the Maclokes nowadays about Shaitles, just talking about the Inyan Noigeah OOvchukosayhem. Shaitles first started in the Frum community when they looked like a Shaitle. So the Etzem Issur of OOvchukosayhem doesn’t apply. They didn’t want to copy the Goyim -they just didn’t want to wear a Tichel. The fact that they started making them stylish is just making something stylish that is already part of the Jewish world -it’s not now a Goyishe thing.
But as far as wearing these long -haired beautiful Shaitles as opposed to just nice custom or Human hair ones, I think would be Ossur because of Pritzus, not because of OOvchukosayhem.December 21, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1111776
Health: Now that I think of it, the Chochmas Adam is probably coming off of the Gra. If you’ve ever worn a tie then you don’t hold like the Chochmas Adam.December 21, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1111777BTGuyParticipant
A nose piercing can look cool, but does not seem so Jewish.
I could see a problem with nose-piercings, especially on Shabbos.
Without the nose ring in place, on a very windy day, the whistle noise created by the empty piercing changes in pitch as the wind blows, and this presents a problem, obviously.December 21, 2011 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1111778
Sam 2- Where is this Gra? And what does the Gra have to do with ties?December 22, 2011 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1111779
Health: I think it might be on the page of the S”A but I’m not positive. The Gra holds that any article of clothing that doesn’t serve an obvious purpose that the Goyim started wearing and Jews didn’t start wearing immediately becomes an Issur D’Oraisa of Chukas Hagoyim for a Jew to wear forever. The two major Nafka Minos of this Bizman Hazeh are ties and the Chassidishe garments (not that the Gra would have had a problem calling Chassidish garments Assur).
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