September 15, 2011 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1200287observanteenMember
Shprintze: The “Where-in-the-torah-does-it-say” attitude will get you nowhere. Did you expect the Torah to list every detail of untznius clothing? Do you want a malach to come and tell you exactly WHY you can’t wear pants, sleeveless dresses etc.?
IMHO, tznius is a sensitivity and a maturity. It’s when you understand what we’re doing to the men and bochrim out there.
I wish I were at that point. In the meanwhile, I’m working hard to get there.
Hatzlacha rabba.September 16, 2011 12:44 am at 12:44 am #1200288yummy cupcakeMember
just saw this thread. awesome poem, i really love it!!!!!!!!September 16, 2011 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1200289shprintzeMember
observanteen- I do not expect to find written in the Torah “every detail of untznius clothing”. However I DO want to know if there are sources for covering knees and elbows and toes. Like you said, tznius is a sensitivity and maturity. Therefore I try not to attract attention to myself, and I do not expose 90% of my body like a non-Jew would. But I have a hard time understanding why my toes, knees and elbows must be covered.
Personally I think these guidelines were instituted as gedarim (please tell me if I am wrong) but are they as serious as gedarim on hilchos shabbos (muktzah), or are they more lenient like the gedarim between an engaged couple (only speak every other day)?
If someone would show me a source for these guidelines, I (and I think many other women) would have an easier time dressing accordingly.September 16, 2011 2:11 am at 2:11 am #1200290am yisrael chaiParticipant
“Am Yisrael Chai, thank you for that beautiful poem.”
“awesome poem, i really love it!!!!!!!!”
Thank you for your kind words, Bbubbee and Yummy.
So glad you enjoyed reading it; I enjoyed writing it.September 19, 2011 5:48 am at 5:48 am #1200291kapustaParticipant
my friends call me 80
well best is to mix the honey and vinegar together
its not good for much by itself,
but if you add some oil, garlic and salt youll have a great salad dressing
I’d change the first two lines slightly, but that was really deep. Well said.September 19, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1200292aimhabonimParticipant
To Shprintze- I find it so very sad that you don’t know all that you were asking about.Covering knees and elbows is basic halacha.Covering toes is a machlokes that most communities are makpid on. PLEASE get yourself to a seforim store and buy a copy of “Halichas Bas Yisroel- A Woman’s Guide to Jewish Observance”,by Rav Yitzchok Yaacov Fuchs. In Volume One there is in-depth coverage with detailed footnotes of halachos of tznius. I think you (and many others!) would find this very enlightening.September 19, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1200293tickle toe eitusMember
Yes, covering knees (and elbows) and above is halacha. It is so sad that it is so widely violated by frum women in the streets.September 20, 2011 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1200294Sam2Participant
Most communities are Makpid on covering toes? I know that some are, I didn’t know most. Elbows and knees is straight Halacha (from the Gemara in Brachos), though some (very small) communities have Minhagim to be Mattir a few inches above the elbows.September 20, 2011 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1200295taking a breakMember
i would think covering the toes is a sensitivity. i try to be cover my toes that the spaces between are covered for 2 reasons. first reason is cuz i personally want them covered and 2 if they are covered to that extent i know the shoe is not going to hit me in pressure points and the shoe holds my foot better. but i have not heard any thing saying showing one’s toes is assurSeptember 20, 2011 2:30 am at 2:30 am #1200296frumnotyeshivishParticipant
I think we should all thank the people who dress immodestly. Otherwise who could we possibly blame our problems on? Ourselves? No… that’s just crazy. I don’t know if this is mutar, but with rabbinic consent (and I’m sure there could be at least one…) I’ll be glad to blind all volunteers… I have some excellent methods I’m considering. No excuses now. Ika darka achrina.September 20, 2011 6:57 am at 6:57 am #1200297tahiniMember
As a proud grandmother visiting her family in Ramat Beit Shemesh I am sad to hear of people being taken aback by the tznius of others in the area. Many of us support, love and nuture families there. Believe me in the big bad world there are many obstacles we have to overcome, please fixtheworld do not worry too much about grandmothers who may not fulfill your own ideals of tznius. Yes tznius is very important, I have Rabbi Falk’s book right here!!! But minhagim play a role in how we dress and so does age!! Many sections of Rabbi Falk book are of especial relevance to Gateshead, what is acceptable there is not the same as Eretz Yisrael as Rabbi Falk himself recognises. He emphasises communities have their own minhagim. I often note the younger kids and mothers are dressed tzniusdik with tremendous care and attention, great. However as an older woman our teachings and customs tend to be different, look around at any simcha or big event where extended families get together!! Some wear denim, some do not, some use headscarves to cover their hair, others stick to sheitels, all to me are klal Yisrael and loved in their entirety. Tznius is a fascinating subject but of all the obstacles in life it is one that can be dealt with by focussing on oneself and not paying too much attention to those around who we can see are seeking in their own way to tznius. Sensitivity and respect go a long way!!!January 29, 2012 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1200298emunah613Member
Many of the residents of RBS come from more modern Orthodox or even non religious families. When their parents/grandparents visit, they dress according to their style back in chul. While some of these women in CHUL may be comfortable wearing pants or low cut blouses; in RBS, they wear skirts and longer sleeved shirts out of respect and are often seem with a cap covering most of their hair. Please keep in mind that they support their children’s way of life, often buying them beautiful apartments and helping to support their grandchildrens’ chareidi lifestyle. This, in spite of the fact that they do not completely understand this choice and think that the charedi lifestyle is “extreme”. In fact, I can count over twenty families I know personally that are in this situation and would never be able to lead their Torah lifestyle without the very generous support of these loving “bubbies”. Makes me kinda wish I had one!December 17, 2016 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1200299LightbriteParticipant
Bump 5yr threadDecember 18, 2016 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1200300Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
I have lived in RBS for years and haven’t seen any elderly ladies dressed untzniusly. I agree with emunah613 that it must be people visiting who don’t realize.
I remember years ago being on a bus and having one such visiting American zaidy sit next to me on the bus. It was probably the only time that a man sat next to me on the bus and I didn’t stand up because he so clearly was temimusdik and completely clueless and just didn’t realize that you don’t do that in EY.
btw, I think there may be LH on this thread and I’m not sure it should be continued but since it was bumped, I felt the need to clear the reputation of the elderly ladies in RBS.
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