November 13, 2008 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #588640
There was a comment posted in an article about the sign that has been given a prominent place on a heavily traveled street in Lawrence. This commentator wrote that he had gone to that club to speak with it’s manager to try and have him remove the sign.
I have never read something so horrible as this! A Torah Jew walked into this den of iniquity; it doesnt matter what his purpose was. I B”H don’t know exactly what goes on in these places, but I’m sure you cant go there with out seeing devarim asurim.
NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS! Or the YWN moderators didn’t allow anyone to be moiche. As a way to not seem complacent with this mans actions we need to be moiche berabim. This is my machah.November 13, 2008 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #624884anon for thisParticipant
I don’t know anything about these clubs firsthand either, but is it possible this club is sometimes closed for business, and that the poster visited outside of normal operating hours?November 13, 2008 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #624885
I have seen this billboard while driving in the area, and it is an embarrassment and a disgrace. BUT – it is the public domain, and I am not sure that legally the so-called “gentleman’s club” ( though what type of gentleman would ever set foot in such a place, I cannot imagine!) can be compelled to take it down. If I were the local citizen’s group, I woul;d flood this place with letters requesting that they modify the ad to be less offensive. There are people who have done protest marches in front of such places to get them to close in a given neighborhood – maybe that is another option. I personally would not be comfortable to walk into the place and speak to the management, but I would think that if someone else did, he should not be berated for taking a stand that was surely VERY uncomfortable for him, but applauded for trying to do the right thing. And if he succeeds in getting the sign removed, would you feel differently?November 14, 2008 3:29 am at 3:29 am #624886aziParticipant
I was the one who went to the “den of iniquity” to speak with it’s manager. It is impossible to go to this place without being spotted by a frum person driving by; that is just how prominent this place is on this road (Rockaway Turnpike). In order not to be spotted I went during the night, and at the door I asked for the manager to come to me, which he did. He was aware of the religous communities proximity to his “establishment” but refused to be pressured.
Anyway, I belive it was a mitzva to do what I did for the sake of Klal Yisroel.
We once had a Victoia’s Secret on Centrel Avenue and due to the efforts of Rabbi J. Telzer (hamevin yavin) we succeded in having them clean up their windows and ultimitely shut down.November 14, 2008 5:29 am at 5:29 am #624887I can only tryMember
?”? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? – ??? ???:?November 14, 2008 5:45 am at 5:45 am #624888
I dont know how you can say ??? ????? ??? ???? ????, when a man walked into a gents club. This can under no circumstances be right. he should have sent his wife.November 14, 2008 5:46 am at 5:46 am #624889
Yasher Koach Azi. On both counts. The Victoria’s Secret display was particularly problematic as it was out in the open only a few blocks from the local kosher pizza places where young kids go to eat lunch, as well as some lcoal Yeshivas. It WAS a mitzvah, and don’t allow anyone to say otherwise. What’s worse is the type of clientele that this place must surely attract.November 14, 2008 6:23 am at 6:23 am #624890anon for thisParticipant
Azi was careful to go at night, when no one else would see, and only went to the door; he didn’t walk in. I’d guess that one can’t see anything at the door except maybe a bouncer. Sending his wife in wouldn’t be a better idea, given that she’d be more vulnerable walking through the parking lot than he would.
Once again I find myself agreeing with oomis1105.November 14, 2008 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #624891I can only tryMember
That’s exactly what I would’ve said, before seeing azi’s explanation re:
a) avoiding forbidden sights
b) avoiding maris ayin
This is really a perfect example of why we should be dan lekaf zchus.November 14, 2008 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #624892
I cant believe what im reading. when there are other ways to fix this problem – for example: the askanim working on it now – it was totaly wrong fot someone to go near this place.
(a) we dont know that you cant see asurim from the door, azi didnt tell us, maybe the door is in middle of the room.
(b) im not happy to hear that because somone goes there at night he would not be seen! Rebonai Shel Olam, isnt this how frum people would be able to attend such a place? No one should be able to hear that a person was able to be there with out someone seeing him.November 14, 2008 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #624893
The askanim, whoever they may be, might not have gotten as quick and direct a contact with the manager. Did Pinchas ben Elazar ask shailos when he saw Zimri ben Salu and Cozbi bas Tzur en flagrante delicto? No, he saw arayos, and he stepped up to the plate, something that needed to be done, risking his own reputation in the bargain. I am not suggesting that Azi do anything further than what he already did, but he certainly did not do anything wrong, and in my opinion did something brave that may result in a modification of the sign. Sounding judgmental and second-guessing , often results in people being afraid to do the right thing for fear of censure.November 14, 2008 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #624894gavra_at_workParticipant
I recommend you go over to the owner and give him an offer he can’t refuse (Monetarily).
Otherwise, are you doing something about the situation or do you just want to hock?November 14, 2008 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #624895mdlevineMember
Pinchas dis ask a shaila.November 14, 2008 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #624896charlie brownMember
I don’t know whether azi was right or not to go there, but you owe him a brocho for not being don lkaf zchus and assuming he went inside and not just to the door as he later said. I also don’t know why you assume he didn’t ask a rav, maybe he did. But one thing I can’t understand is your suggestion to send his wife. I totally agree with “anon for this” that she would be extremely vulnerable and unsafe walking into a place like that.November 14, 2008 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #624897aziParticipant
Wow! Thank you everyone here for your support. I do believe it was the right thing to do. My stomach turns every time drive by that place. I have never seen anything so disgusting in all my life. Even in Manhattan there isn’t such a billboard.
I also want so echo oomis1105’s point that you cant be afraid to do something right because of fear of public opinion.
My dear friend Gawker: You bagan this topic as a machoh against me and – im not happy about it – it eneded up being a macho against you. Aren’t you happy that someone tried to do something so you sons dont have to see this sign whenever they go to Brooklyn or the City?November 14, 2008 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #624898Dr. PepperParticipant
I wouldn’t want to put myself in a situation like Reb Azi did, but if I would see some one with a hat, jacket, tie and beard standing outside I would definitely not suspect him of having anything less than the best intentions.
Thank you Reb Azi.November 14, 2008 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #624899ujmParticipant
Photograph their customers entering (it is legal to photograph a public street and its occupants), post them onlinr, let them know you are doing so and are willing to stop if the drop their billboard.November 14, 2008 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #624900yoshiMember
Ok, so it’s one thing to have big bulletins of models posing, but an advertisement of a subject such as that, for all to see, is kind of inappropriate anywhere. They aren’t advertising clothing or a car. They are advertising something of an inappropriate, distasteful nature. It’s freedom of expression, not freedom of ick.November 16, 2008 12:38 am at 12:38 am #624901
Pinchas dis ask a shaila.”
According to Rashi, yes, but not according to the p’shat. I hear you, though.
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