Oichel Nefesh on Yom Tov

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  • #590499

    squeak
    Participant

    We know that Tzoirech Oichel Nefesh is permitted on Yom Tov. But this is only when it is Shaveh L’chol Adam (i.e. it is a need for everyone).

    Some things that were shaveh l’chol adam in prior generations are not now, and vice versa. Two examples that come to mind are smoking and showering.

    Smoking was permitted on Yom Tov because everyone who enjoyed smoking smoked. Nowadays this is not the case – many people who would enjoy smoking do not do so because it is known to be a health hazard. Therefore, this is not shaveh l’chol adam.

    Showering or bathing was done infrequently, and therefore it was forbidden to wash one’s entire body with hot water on Yom Tov. Nowadays, it is the rare person indeed who will go for 2 days without showering (and not only an istanis who will feel dirty). When there is a 3 day Yom Tov even more so – it is nearly unheard of today that an adult would go for 3 days without a shower. Seemingly, this is something that IS shaveh l’chol nefesh.

    We all no that no Rav has issued a psak assuring smoking or permitting showering on Y”T. My question is why not?

    #897980

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    We all no that no Rav has issued a psak assuring smoking or permitting showering on Y”T. My question is why not?

    Squeak are you refering to a normal shower? I know many people who do shower on YT with a shinui. My family doesn’t but I think that has more to do with ignorance on how to do it right than being stricter.

    #897981

    Be Happy
    Participant

    If you need a shower or bath for health provided your hot water system is such that it is permitted to use on YomTov speak to a Rov. I was suprised how easily I got permission. A Rov must be asked.

    #897982

    mepal
    Member

    Hey! So maybe we really CAN take showers on Yom Tov! Yippee!

    Now we just need a Rav to back us on that one.

    #897983

    Feif Un
    Participant

    squeak: Many Rabbonim have said it is assur to smoke at all. Why should they make a specific psak for Yom Tov?

    #897984

    pookie
    Member

    why don’t u ask ur rav, i asked mine and he said i can shower on yom tov and smoking thats never allowed

    #897985

    squeak
    Participant

    Feif, good point, but would you admit that there is a difference, even to those Rabbonim, between smoking on Shabbos and smoking on Y”T? I don’t understand why though.

    #897986

    pookie
    Member

    i use liquid soap instaed of a soap bar and to shampoo my hair i was the tips of my fingers instead of my whole hand and i don’t dry my hair

    #897987

    mepal
    Member

    pookie: Thats a real bedieved shower.

    #897988

    pookie
    Member

    mepal why?

    #897989

    mepal
    Member

    Liquid soap, no sponge sooo….

    And then you gotta wash your hair with the tips of your fingers? May I assume you’re a male? And not drieing the hair…wouldn’t work for all of us :-/

    #897990

    pookie
    Member

    i donna know i’ve been doing this for years

    #897991

    squeak
    Participant

    This from Webster’s online.

    Function: noun

    Etymology: Middle English shour, from Old English sc?r; akin to Old High German sc?r shower, storm, Latin caurus northwest wind

    Date: before 12th century

    1 a : a fall of rain of short duration b : a similar fall of sleet, hail, or snow

    2 : something resembling a rain shower ; especially : a fall of meteors which belong to a single group and whose trails appear to originate at the same point in space

    3 : a party given by friends who bring gifts often of a particular kind

    4 : a bath in which water is showered on the body; also : the apparatus that provides a shower

    I call your attention to #4. Per that definition, I would say that the only requirement to be called a shower is that you must get wet. Anything above that is lifnim mi’shuras hadin. And we all know that nobody here is looking for extra chumros.

    #897992

    mepal
    Member

    Like I said, that too is bidieved…

    #897993

    oomis
    Participant

    Though I myself have never showered on yom tov, my son learned in Yeshiva both here and in E”Y that it is permissible with a change in the regular way, and if only done for the immediate cleansing (no long, protracted showering)of individual body parts. Hair washing is NOT included, particularly for people with hair of a length that water could be squeezed from it. When washing hair, you cannot help but be socheit the water as you wash it.

    As to the smoking on Y”T, well that halacha (the heter part)likely came at a time when people smoked regularly (including some of the rabbonim) and it was not yet known about the health hazards both to the smoker and to the environment. Since the burning of fire for tzorech ochel nefesh was permissible, so too was the smoking considered as “ochel nefesh (ask any woman who has quit smoking and immediately gained thirty lbs. if smoking was not her “ochel nefesh”) Nowadays, all of us are presumably more educated and intelligent, and the layman as well as the rov knows that smoking is not only NOT ochel nefesh, it is mamesh sakanas nefesh, and therefore many if not most poskim would probably look at smoking as an issur for ANY day of the week, kal v’chomer on yom tov. Just my opinion.

    #897994

    squeak
    Participant

    mepal, it’s one thing to be machmir on yourself, but to call the ikkar hadin (the definition) “bedieved”, well – try not to get carried away in your self-righteousness 🙂

    #897995

    squeak
    Participant

    oomis:

    1) There is no schita regarding hair. The problem would be with the towel. People use the mikve on Shabbos or Yom Tov – which gets hair just as wet as a shower.

    2) Smoking certainly is tzoreich oichel nefesh – what else would it be? What you mean to say is what I said above – it is not a tzoirech that is shoveh l’chol adam.

    #897996

    mepal
    Member

    I want someone to find some kind of hetter to take a real, good shower. Oh, and to use a haiblower afterwards too one we’re at it.

    #897997

    squeak
    Participant

    mepal, why stop there? How about a heter for a shower radio too? And heated towels, etc.

    #897998

    mepal
    Member

    wait wait, dont overdo it. They wont let ANYTHING if we ask for too much. Lets do this one slowly.

    #897999

    Jax
    Member

    i bet our CR Rosh Yeshiva can find some heter for you mepal!

    #898000

    mepal
    Member

    Oh, call him please… Truth is, theres no three day YT for another while, no?

    #898001

    squeak
    Participant

    There’s lots of them next year, and the year after that, and in 4 and 5 years 🙂

    #898002

    Jax
    Member

    mepal: wish i could get Rav Moish here!…….;)

    #898003

    mepal
    Member

    you’re scaring me, squeak.

    #898004

    Feif Un
    Participant

    What exactly does ochel nefesh mean? Does it mean food, something you gain sustenance from? If that’s the case, then smoking may be allowed on Yom Tov, but it shouldn’t be permitted on a fast day – and I know people smoke on fast days.

    #898006

    oomis
    Participant

    Feif un, when my rov sends out the Hilchos Tish B’av each year, he specifically assers the smoking, because , “As it should be assur to smoke any time of the year because it is a sakana to one’s health, kal v’chomer it is surely assur on Tisha B’av.”

    #898007

    oomis
    Participant

    “1) There is no schita regarding hair. The problem would be with the towel. People use the mikve on Shabbos or Yom Tov – which gets hair just as wet as a shower.”

    Squeak, I don’t know how you wash your hair, but when I do, there is DEFINITE sechita. How can you possibly shampoo and rinse hair without some form of sechita, unless your hair is SO short that there really is nothing to squeeze? And yes, the towel is a problem, yet strangely, we wash and dry our hands for Ha-Motzi on Shabbos, and women who go to the mikvah on Friday night are allowed to gently pat the excess water from their hair with a towel, without squeezing it. If you are not using shampoo, there is really no reason for the head to get wet altogether when showering. An adult can easily shower without the water going on the head. And if not, then it is perhaps time to invest in a hand-held shower attachment so that only the soiled parts of the body are washed.

    #898008

    squeak
    Participant

    Squeak, I don’t know how you wash your hair

    Sigh. I wonder if there’s anyone left who remembers the answer to that question.

    #898009

    mepal
    Member

    you have none?

    #898010

    You can squeeze your hair directly into a towel (solid to solid) just like you can squeeze a lemon directly onto fish. You can’t squeeze your hair so the water goes onto the floor (but even this is only d’Rabbonon because you don’t want the water and it is not being collected)

    #898011

    squeak
    Participant

    Sorry, no personal questions allowed in the CR.

    80 – where oh where did that psak come from?

    #898012

    mepal
    Member

    You mean no personal answers.

    #898013

    I don’t recall exactly when and where (or was it “where oh where”) I learned that squeak, but I found this just now:

    [6]

    from this website

    http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/ostroff/archives/shabbos5_23.htm

    #898014

    squeak
    Participant

    Thanks 🙂

    #898015

    pookie
    Member

    by not taking a shower it can possibly ruin someone else’s yom tov

    #898016

    Joseph
    Participant

    Or possibly your Gan Eden.

    #898017

    mepal
    Member

    Yeah, its mi-uss.

    #898018

    pookie
    Member

    true

    #898019

    Chortkov
    Participant

    The ???? ????? in ???? (The commentary under the ??”?, found at the back of the ????) clearly states that it is ASSUR TO SMOKE ON YOM TOV.

    (See also http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/smoking-why-should-it-be-muttar#post-386078, I have heard this many times but never seen it. It sounds like the ??? ????? has a ????? about this in ??? ?”?.)

    #898020

    yitayningwut
    Participant
    #898021

    Sam2
    Participant

    Squeak: To answer your original question, even though showering on Yom Tov is Shaveh L’chol Nefesh (at least in American nowadays; Israelis can probably go 2 days without a shower quite often), there is still an issue of G’zeiras Habalanim according to some Rishonim.

    #898022

    dafbiyun
    Participant

    Rav Elyashiv zt’l issued a very specific p’sak several years ago stating that smoking was no longer a davar h’shava l’chol odom and,therefore, was not permitted on yom tov.

    Interestingly the Aruch Hashulchan goes on about the benefits of smoking , how many people (in those days) needed to smoke in order to aid digestion, and concludes that smoking on yom tov is allowed. But that was 100 years ago and given what we now know about smoking as well as the drastic shift in society’s view of smoking the Aruch Hashulchan obviously can no longer be relied upon.

    I really dont know how people can ignore Rav Elyashiv’s psak…. givin that absent the heter of ochel nefesh ,smoking on yom tov is an issur d’oraisa

    #898023

    WIY
    Member

    dafbiyun

    Smoking in general is an issur deoraysoh. Its a chillul Hashem that you see young yeshiva bochurim both chassidish and non chassidish smoking.

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