January 7, 2011 5:21 am at 5:21 am #594034
What are the sociological reasons the frum community is unfortunately experiencing a large number of older guy’s still not married?
And as a secondary point, according to the claim that the “shidduch crisis” is almost exclusively due to the age gap (i.e. too many girls in the shidduch market with not enough guy’s), how do they explain the terrible amount of older guy’s?January 7, 2011 5:26 am at 5:26 am #775393real-briskerMember
Hashem wants them to get married older!January 7, 2011 5:42 am at 5:42 am #775394frumladygitMember
My husband knows of an older man who when he was “on the market” after his divorce, the shadchan told him bluntly over the phone:
“If I can verify you have money, today, I have a queque of girls lined up”. In fact, in one case, the shadcan had a girl under 20 who could not have children, but whose parents would have overlooked the divorced mans age (almost a difference of 20 years) if they knew she would be comfortable!
I think with older men $$$ is the bottom line. You can buy a wife.January 7, 2011 5:45 am at 5:45 am #775395L613Member
define older.January 7, 2011 6:05 am at 6:05 am #775396popa_bar_abbaParticipant
This question does not make any sense.
Even if there was perfect parity, there would be people who didn’t get married.
The numbers problem creates large numbers of women who remain unmarried in addition to the “normal” amount.January 7, 2011 6:23 am at 6:23 am #775397QueenParticipant
many are shopping for a wife vs. wanting to get married.January 7, 2011 6:24 am at 6:24 am #775398
As embarassing as this is, and readying myself for the backlash, here is my observation on why there are more older single guys these days. I will live with it, to bring this issue to the surface.
Doros Holchos U’Mismaatos.
After listening to many of these older guys explain what they are looking for in a girl, the description invariably goes to the physical, with way more detail than any guys of any previous generation would have ever dared think about or talk about. Ill stop here.
IMHO it’s not only this, but it’s a great part of whats taking guys today longer to find their right one.January 7, 2011 6:28 am at 6:28 am #775399
Ummm… where I come from I am not seeing the problem of too many older guys. And if you are, chances are that they are being extremely picky, because I am sure they are being redt to many many girls.January 7, 2011 7:19 am at 7:19 am #775400hello99Participant
carefull, AZ will deny their existance.January 7, 2011 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #775402TheGoqParticipant
If your an older girl people feel sorry for you, tsk tsk another poor victim of the shidduch crisis, if your an older guy your labeled a weirdo, a nebbish, or a ne’er-do-well.January 7, 2011 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #775403L613Member
I like to call them “professional rejectors.”
Yes, I know they are not all like this, but the vast majority of them are.
Do they ever get married? Usually. To someone who it’s “comfortable” for them to be with.
I recently went out with one such guy. He was a little older than the norm; very set in his ways and proud of himself. He is looking for someone very specific and I fit that description very well. But he said no without giving me a second date. I can’t imagine how he came to the conclusion that “our personalities did not match” because he didn’t ask me any questions about myself, and even so, our conversation flowed very nicely… it was very strange. I wish him all the best.
If you think about it, these guys have gone out on MANY dates, probably over a hundred. What’s the common denominator of all these dates? HIM! So there must be something going on there. Just saying.
Also – I’m NOT denying the fact that for some people it takes longer. This is sooo true. I’ve seen countless guys get married in their late 20’s, early 30’s… it just took them longer to find their basherte.
Ultimately, Hashem is running the world and we have to do our hishtadlus (which means not to reject so easily!!!!!)January 7, 2011 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #775404cshapiroMember
honestly i think its commitment issues…January 7, 2011 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #775405AZParticipant
Hello: sorry to ruin your conclusion and you might want to discuss with pumperJanuary 7, 2011 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #775406mikehall12382Member
maybe their is a backlash about parents finding mates for them. Perhaps they want to meet on their own? As for money, i had nothing when i got married. My wife and I both worked hard and built our comfortable lifestyle together….January 7, 2011 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #775407
pumper, “chances are that they are being extremely picky, because I am sure they are being redt to many many girls”.
Right! I personally know many many guys who went out with at least 200 girls by the time they reached their upper twenties. They feel it’s not their fault they dont feel attracted to any of them. When did anyone EVER hear of that in previous generations?….Doros Holchos U Mismaatos.January 7, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #775408
Boys nowadays think that they could get everything on their list plus more. Some are very unrealistic and are not willing to “settle” for anything less than perfection. On the other hand, the girls are expected to give in on many things.
Example: A divorced guy looking for a single girl. Hello????January 7, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #775409
Nothing wrong with a divorced guy looking for a never married girl. In fact such marriages frequently happen!
And not only with divorced Kohanim who MUST marry a never married girl.January 7, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #775411
Never divorced girl, rather.January 7, 2011 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #775412happy123Member
i agree- nothing wrong for a divorced guy looking for a single girl, BUT you have to say the same for a divorced girl looking for a single guy!January 7, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #775413
pumper, “Example: A divorced guy looking for a single girl. Hello????”
Oy, never mind a divorced guy looking for a single girl!…. a divorced guy looking for a stunning! educated! spunky! single girl…Single alone doesnt do it.
The only times I’ve heard the reverse (divorced girl marrying single guy, and even divorced girl with child) is by the Chassidishe.January 7, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #7754141dayatatimeParticipant
AgreedJanuary 7, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #775415nfgo3Member
Without accurate numbers from a reliable source, this discussion, like many other shidduch crisis discussions, is too speculative to be meaningful. First of all, as L613 reasonably asked, how old is “older”? And what makes the number of unmarried “older” men “terrible”? That is a strong word for an unknown number.
I think part of the problem, as perceived, is that there is no allowance in the estimates of the “crisis” for persons (of both sexes) who choose to marry later than age 22.
Second, if there is in fact a crisis, I believe that part of the reluctance of young couples to commit to marriage is the untenable economic situation required to support a learning chosson who has not attended college and acquired the skills needed to earn a living. I think that time is running out because the supply of parents willing and able to subsidize married children – which in the post-World War II boom in the US led to unprecedented levels of wealth – is dwindling, especially since the bust of 2008. I expect that this will prompt a rethinking among frum Jews of their “economic model” of life in which a chosson learns and his kallah supports him and raises his children. The subsidies from the prior generation are drying up.January 7, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #775416WolfishMusingsParticipant
And not only with divorced Kohanim who MUST marry a never married girl.
Well, they could marry widows…
The WolfJanuary 7, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #775417
I beg to differ. Why would a never married young girl want a guy who was married before? Obviously the situation is different if the girl is much older, but I have heard of 24 year old divorced guys only wanting to go out with single girls younger than them. Hello????
And I am sure it does happen often due to the lack of balance in the shidduch world. But that doesn’t make the divorced guy right for only agreeing to go out with single girls. He was divorced once himself, so why wouldn’t he go out with a girl who was divorced also?
What would happen is a divorced female demands a never married guy? Everyone would throw her into the insane asylum for even contemplating such an idea.January 7, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #775418gregaaronMember
Just to point something out –
On all of the “girls in shidduchim” threads, everyone is on the girls’ side (which is no problem). But notice that over here, the vast majority of the posters are blaming the boys themselves, as if it’s their fault that they’re not married. Try writing something like that in one of the girl threads, and see what happens.
There may be more older girls than boys, but for each one it’s a crisis. If anything, it’s tougher for a boy, because an older girl doesn’t get labeled the way an older boy does.January 7, 2011 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #775419
gregaaron, “There may be more older girls than boys, but for each one it’s a crisis. If anything, it’s tougher for a boy, because an older girl doesn’t get labeled the way an older boy does”
None, not even one, well maybe one or two, of the older girls have a selection (what a menu) like most of the older guys who have dated upwards of 200 girls and are not attracted to anyone.
Major difference!January 7, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #775420
I don’t know why or why not. But I do know many divorced boys around 24 or older DO marry never married (younger) girls. And there is zero wrong with it, G-d bless them both.
And like I said, divorced Kohanim CAN’T marry a divorced girl.January 7, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #7754212qwertyParticipant
I think the problem with any older single person is that they dont have a good mentor/Rabbi. It has to be the type of person who wouldnt mind telling him/her how to improve and whats unreasonable to look for in a mate. But also the single person should be open to change based on the advice of the mentor.January 7, 2011 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #775422
I never said that it’s wrong for the marriage to take place. I just think its wrong for divorced guys to ONLY want to go out with never married girls.January 7, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #775424
Of course, thet did not have alter bochurim in previous doros?January 7, 2011 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #775425
mdd: I’ve heard much more about older girls whose parents didnt have “Nadden” than alter Bochrim. The older girls waited til women died in childbirth to get married to the widowers (I certainly cant say that women not surviving childbirth presently in drastically lower numbers is a bad thing). If there were that many Alte Bochrim they wouldnt have had to wait for widowers!!! I also NEVER heard of Alte Bochrim who met 200 girls in der Alter Heim. I laugh at the thought of it! Maybe Goyishe royalty!
From what Ive heard there were many more “Nadden-less” and therefore unmarriagable girls. The alter bochrim were a tiny fraction. Not like these days.
When I saw the thread “Remembering Our Zeida’s and Bubbe’s who were murdered Al Kiddush Hashem”, I was thinking that, in effect, the choosy guys who cant choose from among 200+ girls (that they chose to date), and go on and on, are doing as Hitler wished, in lessening the numbers of Jews. Perhaps I’m off on a tangent, but sad.January 9, 2011 1:14 am at 1:14 am #775426aries2756Participant
There is another variable to this equation and that is the stupid questions mothers ask and the nonsense and standards they keep in looking for a shidduch for their sons. By the time boys take over the process of looking for a shidduch for themselves they are already in the “older” category. Boys have certain criteria and then their mothers add to that. They really don’t have any normal mashpia telling them to look for a wife and not a fantasy, or look for their zivig and not the ideal that they have created on their lists.
I have said it many times. Take a walk on your main street and see what a sense of humor Hashem has. You would never think of matching up the happy couples Hashem has put together. Throw away your lists and start thinking seriously about what Hashem has in mind for you. An inch or two here or there should not make such a difference. A year or two here of there should not make such a difference. When you are a year or two or more into the dating scene you have to think hard about what is truly important.January 9, 2011 1:19 am at 1:19 am #775427
Gemorah says sharfe zachen about those who do not osek in pirya ve’rivya. It is a chiyuv to get married (especially for a man).January 9, 2011 4:38 am at 4:38 am #775428HealthParticipant
And if you are, chances are that they are being extremely picky, because I am sure they are being redt to many many girls.
This statement is true for about half the older guys. The other half during their twenties- people have spoken bad about them and whether this was L.H. or Motzay Shem Rah, they have been locked out of the shidduch scene. Like one poster said, if these men have money, it might be different, but unfortunately for most this isn’t the case!January 9, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #775429Divorced_GuyMember
Not enough shidduchim being redt. People assuming that an older single wouldn’t be open to an “out of the box” shidduch.June 3, 2011 3:18 am at 3:18 am #775432
Divorced_Guy, Not enough shidduchim being redt.
How true!!! The excuse used is that they dont have time or they’re not good at it.
People make time for all kinds of nonsense, and then dont have time to red Shidduchim.
As far as not being good at it, many people stuck to it and became good at it. No reason to give up trying.June 3, 2011 4:24 am at 4:24 am #775433
Ofcourse, being makpid on looks is not a ta’ana on the boy — it is abundantly clear from the Gemora. Being very makpid — ok, he is not a ba’al madreiga. Meeting more than 100 girls and not wanting any of them is a problem; more than 200 — a big problem. They just need to go out and get married.June 3, 2011 5:00 am at 5:00 am #775434
All opinions are well taken.
My nephew, who is married and learns in Lakewood also commented that there are many eligible older(30+ boys) in the Yeshiva, but there are not enough shadchonim to deal with all the available boys.
Now back to the comments of who marries who….
We all heard of stories i have some too. Currently a 32 year old girl is engaged to a divorced with 4 or 5 children; one of our Lakewood neighbors divorced with 9 children married a girl and together have 3 children; a divorced man who married off all his 4 children married an older girl about 38 and B”H have 2 of their own; girl in her high twenties helps a family of 8 for Chesed, the husband divorces his wife and marries this girl. This man was a full day learner. All the above couples are B”H happy. It is not for us to rationalize but we have to try to help others. So young man who feels his fate is hopeless, if you are around 35, i have some eligible girls who may want to meet you, if you are frum and ehrlich and not wasting your days with watching the clock. Two are 28, one a computer programmer and the other a pediatrician. Another 27 year old who is a certified early childhood teacher now going for another degree in psychology. In addition she writes for frum daily/weekly publications. These girls are ready to marry serious learners who may even want to stay in learning. They are frum, dress tzniusdik according to halacha not some piece of trash who tries to tell frum people how to dress(or not dress). If you fit the bill let me know how to contact you. I will charge you $1 for shadchanus, because of the minhag to pay a shadchan.June 3, 2011 5:17 am at 5:17 am #775435
ms. critique: Im nauseaus. Im seeing the same thing. These days if a S I N G L E !!! girl in her upper twenties wants to get married, she’s got to consider divorced guys, many times with one or more children. Girls in their upper twenties who DONT want to consider divorced guys, are getting older and older and older. Whether right or wrong, this is turning off many of them from Frumkeit. Its very humiliating either way, staying single, or dating a divorced guy.June 3, 2011 5:28 am at 5:28 am #775436yetzertovMember
Ms. Critique- the story with the girl who helped for chessed a family of 8 and then the father divorced his wife and married her?!I feel sooo bad for that first wife! That’s epitome of painful! But its definitely wonderful to hear of so many older singles getting married!June 3, 2011 5:32 am at 5:32 am #775437Pac-ManMember
Ofcourse – I didn’t read Ms. Critique being upset with single girls marrying previously married guys. She was merely commenting that it is a real fact of life that often happens. There is no reason for you or anyone to be upset that girls willingly and happily marry previously married men. It is their free will and they are to be commended for it.June 3, 2011 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #775438LuvMeMember
ofcourse – i know a divorced woman who had kids get married to a single guy more than 10 years younger. and they are far from chassiddisheJune 3, 2011 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #775439
The girls should not be so proud and date divorced men. I am a BT. When I was in shidduchim, I would consider a divorced girl, if she was otherwise very good (to compensate for her divorced status). And it is a bigger deal for a bochur to marry a divorcee than the other way around.June 3, 2011 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #775440
Pac, There is no reason for you or anyone to be upset that girls willingly and happily marry previously married men. It is their free will and they are to be commended for it.
He, He, Free will- yes (unless they want to stay single), preference- no! The lesser of two evils. They prefer new furniture to used furniture. They prefer used furniture to no furniture. No single girl is davka looking to marry a divorced guy. They are to be commended for making the best of a lousy situation in Shidduchim.
As in the depression, there ought to be “A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage” (Herbert Hoover) and a SINGLE guy for every SINGLE girl. Sadly there isnt.June 6, 2011 2:59 am at 2:59 am #775441
Thanks for your comments! I am still waiting for some of those so called older boys to let me know how to contact them. Unfortunately the boys are not considered old even at 40 but the girls are labeled “older girl” by the age of 22, some at the fault of shadchanim who label them.
Here is another story. My neice was a great catch and still is great….B”H she is married. When in the parsha of shidduchim, my brother in law drove down to Lakewood on a snowy Sunday, when the roads were dangerous and with black ice. The appointment was to meet the famous Rabbi____( i don’t want to identify him) and i don’t know if he really has semicha,but the title Rabbi was added to his last name. He never even once picked up the phone to redt a shidduch. Then there is the famous Rabbi ______ from Boro Park, where the job as shadchan is handed down from generation to generation. Anyway, being his father davens in the same shul as us, we suggested my brother in law call the son. My brother in law calls him and he answers that he will call him back. (B”H my neice is married and has a beautiful family.)
Guess what, last week , after 5 years Rabbi Boro Park shadchan calls and asks to speak to Rabbi____, my brother in law. Yes, they have a son learning in Eretz Yisroel. No, my brother in law will not call him back. If this shadchan manages to get him, he will get a dvar torah with halachic backing(something my brother in law is known to be an expert in) to show and how wrong he and others(shadchonim) are in their dealings with great girls and how they make nothing of them.
An old friend of mine told me 10 years ago, “today even a half normal boy can luck it out”!June 6, 2011 3:31 am at 3:31 am #775442oomisParticipant
“to compensate for her divorced status”
How extremely noble and kind of you. But only if she is VERY good.
“And it is a bigger deal for a bochur to marry a divorcee than the other way around”
Why?June 7, 2011 2:12 am at 2:12 am #775443Midwest2Participant
oomis – well said. But think – is it really the people themselves saying it, or just the assumptions of the shadchanim? We have no real way of knowing what people really want, because the shadchan is always there in the middle filtering and exercising the final say over who gets redt. Sure there are selfless shadchanim, but methinks there are also some pretty dense and pretty prejudiced people out there trying to do something they don’t have the good judgment to do. Shadchanus is both an art and a moral responsibility. When it’s being used as a parnassa, we can expect problems.June 7, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #775444
Midwest2, When it’s being used as a parnassa, we can expect problems.
While I agree that there are yechidim among Shadchanim who are heartless and tactless, the most highly paid of all Shadchanim, barely eek out a living from it and have to put up with a combination of uppity and whining singles and parents,etc. day and night because of a Shidduch crisis ~t o t a l l y~ not of their doing! Therapists get paid $200 per 45 minute session for listening to others tell them their problems, whether they care or not and help or not. Shadchanim listen day and night for nothing!
Whoever criticizes Shadchanim should be forced to become one! Big talkers!June 7, 2011 4:34 am at 4:34 am #775445Midwest2Participant
Ofcourse – my experience is otherwise – and as an interested bystander, not a consumer (at least not for quite a while). There are far too many people for whom the parnassa angle comes first, and it’s hard to find someone who’s willing to jeopardize their reputation by going against prevailing prejudices.June 7, 2011 4:48 am at 4:48 am #775446
Oomis, because bochurim want to marry besulos. And Gemora encourages this also. I would have considered divorcees or anusos(r’l) if they had other ma’alos to compensate for the lack of the aforementioned ma’ala.
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