October 25, 2013 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #611023
There were various opinions expressed here regarding an upcoming kiruv seminar by Rabbi Fingerer. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=194877
Read my response # 58October 25, 2013 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #984370WIYMember
My concern is that people wont go fearing that by going they are admitting that they are closet atheists.October 25, 2013 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #984371Bookworm120Participant
Ooooh, nice point, WIY.
Closet atheists, beware! It’s a trap!
Come on, anyone with the G-d-given gift of seichel ought to know that!
But wait, atheists don’t believe in G-d; ergo, they have no G-d-given gifts.October 25, 2013 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #984372popupMember
The only way people will go is if they feel the desire to further themselves. It’s an old issue and it’s amazing R’ Fingerer is and has always been reaching out.
there’s nothing wrong with going and who cares what other ppl would think… sometimes it’s the ppl who make the effort and go who are way better off in the long run (then ppl who care “oh I hope no one sees me”)October 25, 2013 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #984373Lost1970Member
The VAST MAJORITY of people are not atheists. Atheists are few. But a large percentage of Jews have doubts. An even larger percentage believe in G-d but do not have enough motivation to keep most Mitzvot. About 13% of Jews are fully observant, and 30% are Shomer Shabbos.October 25, 2013 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #984374Bookworm120Participant
@Lost1970 – Excellent point. Often, we jump to label people under one category. Just because someone has doubts or does not practice everything doesn’t mean that they’re an outright atheist.October 25, 2013 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #984375Sam2Participant
Lost: The modern definition of “strong atheist” probably only qualifies as agnosticism in the dictionary. It’s still Apikorsus.October 27, 2013 1:30 am at 1:30 am #984376metrodriverMember
But there are some people who are ehrliche Yidden at heart and are fulfilling all the Mitzvohs but do not interpret the belief in Hashem and His helping hand into their everyday life. Those individuals might reach a point where they no longer feel motivated to continue their religious observance. They are (Or should be) the target audience of seminars of Chizuk.October 27, 2013 1:52 am at 1:52 am #984377
Moshe Goldberg, have you responded to Eli Willner?October 28, 2013 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #984378
I guess not.October 28, 2013 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #984379
I wish more people from that article and comments should continue discussion here.
My response was that people should not live with with their head in the sand and brush things under the carpet.
Also the following people should be applauded:
#1-#37Yungerman from Lakewood says:
#12 geula says:
#19 onlylettuce says:
#20Hear Ye says:
#37mdtokayer says:October 28, 2013 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #984380
And Eli Willner responded:
Incidentally, your quote from the rosh yeshiva is incoherent. Please re-express it or provide a reference to it.”
Any response?October 29, 2013 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #984381Eli WillnerParticipant
For the record, despite the fact that Moshe speaks as if he knows me, I don’t know any Moshe Goldberg and there isn’t anyone of that name listed in the Yeshiva’s alumni (though of course he could be listed with a different first name).October 29, 2013 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #984382apushatayidParticipant
I dont know whose numbers are more accurate. I dont know if anyone is being an alarmist to generate a crowd at an event or if anyone has their head in the sand trying to ignore a problem.
My take on the matter is, if you feel you need chizuk in this area go to the lecture (or whatever it is) and when it is over call your Rav for a chazara (dont have a Rav, get one, asap).October 29, 2013 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #984384Bubby EParticipant
YFL: Some Yungerleit lost their emunah after reading the New Testament or the Quaran. They couldn’t reconcile that with the Torah. How do we help them live a frum life without believing?October 29, 2013 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #984385
Yungerman from Lakewood, it’s not true that all meaning must be rooted in belief. Just as an illustration, there are lots of Jews who observe different parts of Judaism despite not believing that it is required. It is difficult for those who grew up frum to recontextualize everything, but on some level it is possible to relate to almost all frumkeit as purely meaning without necessitating belief. V’hamaskil yidom.October 30, 2013 3:57 am at 3:57 am #984386
to Yungerman from Lakewood
I was really surprised to read your lines today about you not believing in Hashem but still wanting to remain outwardly frum so as this is the best way for you to keep your family. I am really shocked to hear this, especially because you allegedly report this is due to the fact the you read some science and history which presumably tends to support this view. There is nothing further from the truth that this. I think that The Earth and the Moon are actually closer than this. I have been involved in kiruv work for close to 15 years and have not heard this being said as a SERIOUS claim yet.
You have some plenty of other reasons why u are having difficulty believing in Hashem. So tell more about it. I may be able to help.October 30, 2013 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #984388zvei dinimParticipant
Moshe Rabeinu your approach is not one of Moshe Rabeinu. He explicitly says (Devarim 13:2-4) explicitly says G-d would test us with suggestions arising from empirical evidence:
See also Sifre ad loc.
It seems pretty explicit; according to R. Yose HaGlili G-d may actually test us by changing the laws of science! Whereas R. Akiva holds G-d would only do so having formerly reliable sources send us false information.
Bottom line, according to Moshe Rabeinu G-d will likely test us from science. All the more so according to a plethora of our own sources showing that before Moshiach will be a time of great ???? ????.October 30, 2013 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #984389HaLeiViParticipant
Using history is a pretty weak one. Unless of course you are referring to a specific Maamar Chazal that you feel interferes with the timeline of accepted history.
Science is only an issue with a young earth, which is not accepted by many of the Frum posters here. You could have gone with Rabbi Arye Kaplan’s approach.
I’ve learned plenty of science myself. The one thing to take from it all is, Re’u Mi Bara Eileh.
To notice design you don’t have to argue about evolution. There is plenty of design in front of your eyes even after theorizing self-creation. Natural scenery that is beautiful, and soothing, has a color scheme — which is a real phenomenon and not just based on what we are used to.
There are recurring themes throughout the universe which act like a finger print. We actually take this for granted when we give examples on one topic from completely unrelated concepts. This works only because they all come from one and therefore have the same innate properties.
Science or not, let’s not fool ourselves. Leaving any system alone will not advance it. Even the human race, without the intervention of reason and understanding would barely have survived.
You also mentioned witnessing hypocrisy. While this is a problem, it could have been addressed. The Torah never claimed to take away free will. It does claim to be a sustainable lifestyle. If you’d find that keeping the Torah makes people wild then you’d have a Kasha. But we only see the opposite.
In general, I think you have certain issues which could have been addressed and/or put into context.October 30, 2013 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #984391
Yungerman from Lakewood
I want to step back in time and ask u when did u have to start issues with emunah are in regards to Torah MiSinai. What was happenening at that time in your life- did u just become a father, did you and your chavruasah cauld not understand a particular gemorah u were learning at that time or did u read some semi secular book about chazal and mistakes in torah she bal peh? I want to know.October 30, 2013 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #984393Lost1970Member
Another major test of faith is suffering/depression and being severely wronged by people. Even Iyov denied the resurrection of the dead. In 1990, when atheists were very few, I saw homeless men yelling at a “preacher”.October 30, 2013 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #984394
attn mods” emunah should not be debated on the public forum. please close this thread. and delete it.October 30, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #984395rationalfrummieMember
Marbeh: adderabah it should be discussed. We are not Christians who accept everything simply because the pope/church leaders say so, r”l. The first Halacha in the Mishnah Torah is not to “believe” in God, but to “know” God exists, through rationality, philosophy, and all the other tools God gives us to discover him (Torah isn’t the only one).. Answering this yungerman increases emunah, Daas, and glorifies hashems name.October 30, 2013 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #984396zahavasdadParticipant
They are likely not Atheists but Agnostics. There is a big differnece.October 30, 2013 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #984397apushatayidParticipant
who is debating anything in this thread? a discussion has barely gotten off the ground, much less a debate.October 30, 2013 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #984398WIYMember
Can I be a mind reader and answer your questions? 🙂October 30, 2013 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #984400moronMember
This certainly is a discussion not for little children and all your responses are on the level of 2 year olds!!
so if the yungerman from Lakewood has some kashois on yidishkeit he is entitled to look for answers and he’s even more entitled to keep his kashois to himself!!!
But I don’t understand how come out of love for your wife and children you won’t bring them to the light of truth if you think you’ve got the truth? do you want your son growing up as a believer in the toire or do you want to give him a chance at doing something useful like bringing new medicines for illnesses etc.. It’s something that is a worthy cause according to any and every religion in the world why teach him to spend all his energy for something you doubt?
is your love for your wife and children real or is it your fear of not finding a stable place [wife] and freinds in another setting? are you giving up truth for comfort?
now if all you have is doubts and you still have a tzad that all the gedoiley yisroel together werent smarter than you i understand that you have to give yourself a chance to explore yidishkeit in every way possobile and if you get answers to all your questions please post them!!
they surely will help others!!October 30, 2013 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #984401
Yungerman from Lakewood
many wonderful questions have been raised since my last post, but I want to go in some specific order. So please answer my question above. when did your questioning began and what were you doing at that time when questions started to pop up ?October 31, 2013 12:04 am at 12:04 am #984402zvei dinimParticipant
Despite what YFL said, archeology, for the most part, doesn’t “directly” anything.
Furthermore, for anyone with questions regarding archeology, R’ Gil Student did a great job in his articles at Aishdas dot org slash toratemet. Of note, Kenneth Kitchen — a leading scholar of the ancient Near-East, and probably today’s leading egyptologist — wrote a veritable telephone-book sized volume to counter biblical minimalists — who in his words “didn’t do their homework.”
Also see with comments, the recent guest series on Torah Musings by Dr Joshua Berman – a Lecturer in the Department of Bible at Bar-Ilan University. He claims that those studying treaty forms are highly convinced of a strong biblical parallel with the Hittite vassal treaties of the 13th century BCE and do not share consensuses that exist in other fields of bible study.
Also, you can refer to my previous comment if you don’t consider the remaining puzzle-work inevitable for a subject this kind.October 31, 2013 1:50 am at 1:50 am #984404SecularFrummyMember
Moshe Rabeinu- See my post above.October 31, 2013 3:43 am at 3:43 am #984405
Moron: LOL.October 31, 2013 4:07 am at 4:07 am #984406
I WISH THE YUNGERMAN BEST OF LUCK IN RETURNING TO OUR FAITH.
i believe this forum shoudl be closed because in 2days day in age when people suffer from anxieties and ave 2 much time on their hands you can cause then to have sefaikos.
do you know how much these people suffer with their doubts ??
bh i am a 100% mammin and dont suffer from this but i know others who do.
SO Mods close this forum b4 I report this website to the gedolimOctober 31, 2013 4:09 am at 4:09 am #984407
Yungerman- just curious what was your level of yeshivah ed?
did you learn in a ivy league yeshiva ? and how well of a learner were you?October 31, 2013 8:54 am at 8:54 am #984409moronMember
Dear yungerman from Lakewood!
You are right that you question! Your doubts are valid and in place! Being brought up in America or any liberal country gives you the understanding that because my parents accepted something it does not mean that I have to and in yidishkeit that’s a no no! So I understand you all the way!! But no one can prove beyond a reasonable doubt the age of the world ! When you say million years you mean to say the body of time that according to today’s 365 day a year and 24 hours a day times 60 minutes and 60 seconds the world looks like it’s very old! But the word year means the circle of the earth around the sun so if the earth wasn’t always at a constant but took a longer amount of time to circle itself and the sun the world can be any age and the scientific world can’t oppose it! So if you are just a skeptic and you want the possibility to believe in the mesoire of our toire maybe you can!
There are lots of mekoirois for the possibility that the first 6 days of creation were longer than all other days! There are mekoirois for all types of interesting things that for some reason are not taught in our chadorim but they would make the world older even according to the toire like the yavatz….
Now if you really think that the toire way is false and you just keep it on the outside for other people I really feel bad for you! It’s the worst feeling ever you should see a therapist just to keep you sane! But if you’re a skeptic you aren’t an apikoiress so you can enjoy you life of yidishkeit with your wife and children! and hang in there you might just find the answers at the end! we are all waiting for them!!October 31, 2013 11:53 am at 11:53 am #984411yichusdikParticipant
Marbehshalom, that’s your answer to this young man? Close the discussion? Threaten to “report” the website to “gedolim”?
What do you think that will do to his emunah? Strengthen it or weaken it?
What do you think that will do to others reading thsi who have questions….Sha, Shtill, don’t talk about it, I’ll tell on you! Do you think that strengthens their emunah?
This response to critical thinking is what Yungerman has encountered for years, and what has helped push him to look at the world in a different way than he was brought up.
He deserves better answers than “Close this forum!”October 31, 2013 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #984412jewishfeminist02Member
“SO Mods close this forum b4 I report this website to the gedolim”
Do you have the personal ear of the gedolim? And do you think that the gedolim generally spend their time policing the Internet? And do you think that the gedolim have the power to shut down websites they deem inappropriate? If so, I really think they have many places to go before they even dream of checking up on YWN…October 31, 2013 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #984414
Hi Yungerman from Lakewood,
Now what happens to u next: do u just get married and have a child and live in Lakewood and thus become Yungerman from Lakewood. I am probably missing a lot of steps in between. I want to know more about intermediate steps including what are u doing now. I want to know this so I can help u better.October 31, 2013 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #984415Yungerman from LakewoodMember
Hi Moshe Rabeinu,
Interesting point. It didn’t really hit me until a few years after I got married. When I was a bochur, I knew my father was wrong but I didn’t understand why. Once married, I started talking to people and realized how people can convince themselves of anything. (Including my father convincing himself that he is the only true mesora, dor achar dor, from Har Sinai.
I won’t bore you with the details. Bottom line is I’ve discovered that everyone thinks their religion is the correct one, and everyone else will burn in Gehenom. This is a universal belief shared by all religions, all chasidus, all cults.
I see two rebbes who are brothers fight with each other; each one’s chasidim will tell you that their rebbe is the biggest tzadik and the other is going to burn – they’re convinced! How do you reconcile the beliefs of the chasidim from each camp? One side (or both) is obviously wrong, yet they are each convinced that their rebbe is the greatest tzadik!
But I’m supposed to believe in Eilu v’eilu divrei elokim chayim when it comes to Bais Shamai and Bais Hillel?!October 31, 2013 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #984416
Marbeh Shalom, those are not questions, they are terutzim.
Just to reiterate what Marbeh Shalom and Moron are saying, so that I can help to help Yungerman from Lakewood:
YFL, Of course you have sefeikos! Because you went to a yeshiva that was slightly to rigid! Or slightly too flexible! But of course there are no real sefeikos, because my rebbi even told me! Are you saying that you’re smarter than my rebbi? You’re just saying that because you once had a rebbi who hit you and you couldn’t handle it!
- The topic ‘Onslaught of Frum People That Are Closet Atheists’ is closed to new replies.