orthodox Jewish democrat?

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  • #1953218
    bored guy
    Participant

    I meet many orthodox Jewish people who either support Biden or vote democrat.
    So democrats support abortion, which is wrong.
    they support gay marriage that the Torah says is wrong.
    they support climate change policies, that is a denial of the talmud, as it says g-d told the water not to go over the land.
    They are pro defunding the police which is anti, making judges and enforcing it which is in 7 of noah.
    They say crime is ok as long as it’s for a good cause, the rambam says a guy who steals should be killed.
    Dovid hamelech refused to take things from people for his army because he went above the letter of the law. bavah kamah 60b.
    Forget about deals with Iran money to pa and hamas, people who try every day to destroy jews.

    #1953391
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This is a bunch of baloney.

    When you vote for a candidate, you vote for the person who you think will carry out his/her job in the way you think is best among the candidates.

    It in no way means you agree with everything they believe in or support.

    If it did, you couldn’t vote for anyone.

    You are making the same silly argument Charlie Hall makes when saying voting for Trump means you think he’s from the 36 tzaddikim. You’re just on the other side of the aisle.

    #1953392
    bored guy
    Participant

    feel free to comment

    #1953401
    jackk
    Participant

    bored guy,

    Besides what DY already said, please list the positives and negatives of the republican party and democratic party.
    Then explain why you are willing to ask how orthodox jew’s can support Biden or vote democratic and not how orthodox jews can vote for trump and republicans.
    There is no part of Torah/Orthodox Judaism that is Rush Limbaugh Judaism.

    I ask myself, how can Orthodox jews vote for a party that tried to steal an election and destroy democracy in America ? The R’s have not repented and will try again.

    #1953415
    huju
    Participant

    Well, bored guy, we know you have never suffered a flooded basement. If you are correct about the Talmud’s saying Hashem told the water not to go over the land, you have interpreted those words to mean that oceans cannot rise or cause flooding. Your interpretation is clearly wrong. Try living in Far Rockaway (Queens, New York) during hurricane season.

    #1953444
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Bored Guy:
    Image result for relieving boredom
    To prevent boredom and keep it away, we need to find solutions at home that provide lasting meaning and challenge.

    Remind yourself why you’re posting in the CR. Chazal bring down that if not engaged in bitul torah, yidden generally prefer doing something to doing nothing. …
    Find a rhythm in your head and compose a nigun
    Go with the flow, unless its rising water heading into the basement at your beach house in the Hampdens
    Try something new and adventurous w/o disrupting your chavrusah
    Make room for guilty pleasures within the limits of tzinius
    Connect with others by updating your shiduch resume with your Covid preferences

    #1953429
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    I think @boredguy has a point.
    The Democrats are worse than the Republicans in terms of ideology and agenda from the Torah’s perspective

    >You are making the same silly argument Charlie Hall makes when saying voting for Trump means you think he’s from the 36 tzaddikim.<

    Not quite the same.
    He’s making the point that a large amount of the Democrat’s agenda should be enough to stop any Torah jew from voting Democrat.

    >how can Orthodox jews vote for a party that tried to steal an election and destroy democracy in America<

    I think we’ve had this discussion before.
    Nobody tried to steal an election.
    What you witnessed was lawsuits, which are a foundation of democracy, being brought to courts that studied the evidence and then turned down those lawsuits.
    Anyone who opposes peoples right to sue in a court of law is destroying democracy.

    #1953430
    The Shady Charedi
    Participant

    No one “supports Biden”. They are just anti-Trump.

    #1953432
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Midrash Shmuel on Pirkei Avos on איזהו דרך ישרה says that ben adam lechavero comes before ben adam laMakom. The democrats care for the poor not like Desantos who only
    vaccinates the rich.

    #1953436
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Bored guy, don’t be so bored and do more research. Bad behavior does not have to be followed.

    #1953437
    charliehall
    Participant

    “g-d told the water not to go over the land”

    Obviously the water didn’t listen.

    #1953467
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He’s making the point that a large amount of the Democrat’s agenda should be enough to stop any Torah jew from voting Democrat.

    You can’t make that point in a vacuum. You need to take a broader look at the entirety of the candidates and platforms.

    Those are factors, but do not necessarily make voting for a Democrat a non starter.

    #1953477
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Nobody tried to steal an election.”

    You are welcome to return to reality at any time.

    #1953479
    ujm
    Participant

    DY: There are certain positions that if a candidate supports that would disqualify him from people voting for him regardless how good he is on all other issues. For example, if a candidate supported legalizing murder (of living people) even if supported fully funding Yeshivos and supported every other cause important to the Jewish community, it would be wrong for anyone to support him. Especially if in his elected position he could have any influence on effecting that terrible position he advocates into public policy.

    Legalizing murder is an extreme example. But who is to say that support of abortion or public support of toeiva aren’t disqualifiers as well.

    #1953481
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    boredguy, I am an Orthodox Democrat who writes G-d with a capital letter. We only write god when referring to an idol.

    #1953523
    bored guy
    Participant

    A man who has good character traits but doesn’t perform mizvos is likened to a pig wearing a golden nose ring.
    all he does with it is make it filthy.

    #1953526
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Doing mitzvos with bad character behavior toward his fellow men isn’t that a pig with a golden nose ring?

    #1953528
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Democrats are the bane of evil

    #1953539

    I’m seeing ridiculous comments on both sides here. When discussing why one should support democrats vs republicans, there is a legitimate discussion to be had. What should be discussed and debated, is the core ideology, and fundamental principles of each side. Obviously if one supports democrats, he will look at every action taken by republicans to be bad, terrible and cruel. And vice versa. Why dont we actually debate the issues at hand.
    Reb E, you say “democrats are for the poor”. As if Republicans aren’t? Please refer to the specific policy that you are talking about. (In DJT economy, the poverty rate in America plummeted)
    In general, is it capitalism, or socialism that aligns with torah values? I think the answer is obvious.
    In general, I think we all agree on guns, that while 2a should never be restricted, we should implement more thorough background checks. On abortion, I think we all agree that it is terrible. On foreign policy, there is no doubt that Israel preferred (which should be our preference) DJT over biden. Thats because Republicans are far more pro-Israel then are democrats. (Would probably be safe for you guys to sit out on this one). Republicans love america, Leftist universities teach their students to hate it. Democrats support the lunacy of transgenderism, want to normalize it among children. Democrats blame the failure of POC on some sort of systemic racism, which is not only garbage, but is harmful to POC as it distracts from the real issues at hand. Additionally this has led to the insane Cancel Culture we have come to. So…this is why I support the Republican party. Now I would like for you liberals to answer 3 questions.
    -What are the cons of supporting Republicans?
    -What is it about the Democrat Party that garners your support?
    -And does it really outweigh the ridiculous things democrats support(things we agree on, transgenderism. abortion, ect…)
    Irrelevant replies would be those that are based on something controversial that a specific Republican said, or something related to “stealing elections” or “being involved in insurrection”…

    #1953537
    bored guy
    Participant

    look at every issue, jews don’t believe the world will end due to climate change.
    school choice is better for orthodox jews.
    orthodox jews are pro killing murderers, unlike the democrats.
    the republican party is pro law and order and is pro family, unlike the democrats.
    Many times in talmud it says non jews do not have the halachic importance as a friend check bava kama 38a.
    for some reason so many billionaires are democrat think jeff bezos, mark zuckerberg, jack dorsey, bill gates, warren buffet, bloomberg, so many celebs think actors, singers, sport players, no one is stopping you from giving charity to poor people.
    instead of voting democrat give more money to charity and you’ll get a mitzvah.
    i’m still waiting for one good reason to vote democrat.

    #1953553
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    The only “pro-family” that the Republican party has over the Democrats is gay marriage. They still supported a president who hired a zoina while he was married to his third trophy wife. Furthermore, the USA almost has more annual gun deaths than the rest of the First World combined. Tell me again why the 2nd Amendment is in line with Torah values and Mitzvos Bnei Noach?

    #1953577
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >The Midrash Shmuel on Pirkei Avos on איזהו דרך ישרה says that ben adam lechavero comes before ben adam laMakom. The democrats care for the poor<

    So if you support abortions and gay people but (supposedly) care for the poor you are better in the Torah’s perspective? Do you really believe that?

    >not like DeSantis who only vaccinates the rich.<

    Fact check: False.

    >“Nobody tried to steal an election.”
    You are welcome to return to reality at any time.<

    You have a point. Election fraud exists and both sides have offenders, so I shouldn’t have written that line.
    However, the rest of the post remains true; suing in a court of law is not stealing an election.

    #1953578
    follick2
    Participant

    They are both morally bad, but policies enacted and supported by the Democratic party are better for the economic wellbeing of my family. Economic policies supported by the Republican party are only good for billionaires. I love my family. That’s why I vote for Democrats.

    #1953579
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >The only “pro-family” that the Republican party has over the Democrats is gay marriage.<

    That is the “pro-family” value that the Torah stands for.

    >They still supported a president who hired a zoina while he was married to his third trophy wife.<

    We are talking about policy not person.
    (If you want to talk about person, there’s a great thread named “Cuomo’s Downfall”)

    >Furthermore, the USA almost has more annual gun deaths than the rest of the First World combined. Tell me again why the 2nd Amendment is in line with Torah values and Mitzvos Bnei Noach?<

    The Torah has nothing against weapons, but holds that murder should be punishable by death.

    Remember, this thread is about Torah values.

    #1953597
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Tell me again why the 2nd Amendment is in line with Torah values and Mitzvos Bnei Noach?“

    Ever heard of שמרתם מאד לנפשותיכם & הבאה להרגך השכם והרגו

    That’s what the 2nd amendment was all about

    #1953617
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think socialism applies to Torah values. Government is there to support peoples needs and not the sink and swim attitude of tbe Republicans where they only care for themselves. Why should I give charity, let others do it.

    #1953634
    ujm
    Participant

    Yseribus: The Democrats oppose repealing the Second Amendment. So your point is pointless.

    #1953640
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer: Incorrect. The Republicans do not support stopping welfare, food stamps, medicaid, WIC, HEAP, Section 8, etc. The NEVER advocated discontinuing them. And, in fact, the vote every year to fund them in their proposed budgets.

    #1953646
    catch yourself
    Participant

    Have you ever had a real conversation with someone “on the other side of the aisle?”

    My Rav is a well known and highly regarded Talmid Chacham and Posek. He is also a full-fledged liberal Democrat. I doubt he has ever voted Republican. He is not alone.

    Are you suggesting that such people are not Orthodox Jews?

    #1953642
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Socialism taxes people far more than 20%. So paying Nancy Pelosi is charity? Get help.

    #1953656
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >I think socialism applies to Torah values. Government is there to support people’s needs<

    The Torah is not socialist at all. however it does encourage private citizens to give tzedakah.
    >and not the sink and swim attitude of the Republicans<

    Life is sink or swim. If you don’t want to work, don’t complain.

    >My Rav is a well known and highly regarded Talmid Chacham and Posek. He is also a full-fledged liberal Democrat. I doubt he has ever voted Republican. He is not alone.<

    Why don’t you ask him about the issues being raised and then come back and enlighten us?

    #1953657
    ujm
    Participant

    CY: Avi Weiss is also referred to by his adherents as a highly regarded Orthodox TC and posek.

    #1953679
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They care about big tax cuts for the rich and the poor can starve. The deficit was no problem for the tax cuts for big corporations. It was not invested in capital enhancement in order to create jobs but was used for stock buy back.

    #1953681
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @torahvalues

    No we don’t ALL agree about Guns.

    Both I and my Republican Brother-in law believe that no private citizen should own hand guns, and that hunting rifles/shot guns should only be legal in rural areas where some Americans hunt their food.
    No American private citizen should be allowed to own semi-automatic or assault style guns/rifles.

    #1953684
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @ujm
    The US Congress hasn’t passed a budget in years. The government functions on continuing resolutions. Trump even let the government shut down a number of times.

    So the Republicans don’t vote to fund the social programs in their proposed budgets every year.

    BTW>>>>spending bills originate in the House, not the Senate, so for the past couple of years the proposed budgets that have not been passed are not ‘their’ (Republican).

    #1953685

    >> I think socialism applies to Torah values. Government is there to support people’s needs<
    > The Torah is not socialist at all. however it does encourage private citizens to give tzedakah.

    I think this is all avodah zarah. Torah is not R- or D- (and for sure, not communist, of course). We may vote one way or another, but I don’t think we can and should fully subscribe to any movement, whether in US or Israel. One Talmid Chacham was asked, after an aliyah during heated times, which party he belongs to, responded “party of Moshe Rabeinu”

    #1953696
    er
    Participant

    So far the meilos for voting republican or democrat center around: 1) overall stances of the party on Torah values and 2) Personality/values/effectiveness of the actual leader. Both are important, but I am shocked a third critereon hasn’t been raised: which party is more conducive for a more stable and peaceful existence for us Jews, allows me to raise my family in safety, allows me to work without being mistreated for wearing a yarmulke or taking off YT, going to a store without being harrassed, etc.? Don’t forget most of our history was about pogroms, disallowing observance, and forcing us to live on the fringes of society. We are spoiled here in the U.S. Back in much of the old world, you wouldn’t bother or dare greeting your gentile neighbor, let alone lobbying the country to promote family values. Why the obsession now? Clearly we have some degree of responsibility to promote sheva mitzvos, etc. But I favor democrats by and large to stand by my right to live as a frum Jew. Although republican-supported school vouchers help us finanially, you’d generally find a gay or hipster democrat from NY would likely stick up for a Jew more than a Republican goy from Boise. Just be a decent person and you will see they are not all Jew-haters. The Democratic party always helps the minorities. Yes, there live-and-let-live ideaology can be problematic as there are radicals who want to ban shechita and bris milah. But not most. Change people through engaging them and respecting them as people, not through legisation which doesn’t effectively work anyway.
    And remember that while there are many Christian repblicans who strive for wholesome family values and may respect us, many many christian republicans are “culturally” Christian and have 0 regard for you or me.

    #1953699
    catch yourself
    Participant

    ujm

    I don’t want to give any information that can be used to identify me.

    I am not the most Yeshivishe guy in the world, but I am what nearly all people would consider Yeshivhish. I learned in highly regarded mainstream Yeshivos, and then in BMG for several years before moving to an out of town Lakewood Kollel. After a good number of years in the Kollel, I got a position as a Rebbe in a local frum school, where I’ve been for around a decade.

    The Rav in question is an alumnus of some of the most prominent Yeshivos in America and Eretz Yisrael, and is extremely frum. He is not Rav Shlomo Miller, but he may one day occupy that position among American Poskim.

    I understand if you don’t want to believe me, since it’s an anonymous forum. Take it or leave it, this is the truth.

    #1953721
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >I think this is all avodah zarah. Torah is not R- or D<

    That’s true, however, which party’s agenda is better in the Torah’s perspective?
    As of now, the Democrats of the YWNCR have failed to show us that their party is.

    Of course they can argue that there are other factors to consider when voting and we can agree or disagree on that, but this thread is about the “orthodox Jewish” values.

    #1953728
    Ayiddishekup
    Participant

    Catch yourself-based on what you’re saying and being in the same group and knowing many rabbis in that group I definitely will leave it. (Reminds me of a shidduch that wen trying to promote to someone yeshivish described the boy as very yeshivish he wears a hat by davening) so not buying it.
    Ctlawyer ur brother in law hu is republican what gun DOES he feel is ok to own?

    #1953768
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It is a greater mitzva to teach someone how to fish than give him a fish. People need job training which is more supported by Democrats and not like Reagan who eliminated the CETA program, otherwise people are on their own to sink or swim.

    #1953766

    Catch yourself I trust that is your Rov is indeed well known and respected. Which is why id be really interested to hear what he has to say about the culture in america, and where its headed. Abortion, transgenderism. Really trying to understand what there is to the Democrat Party. A few comments claim that democrats care about the poor, while Republicans care about the rich. This is an age old rhetoric that is completely inapplicable. Following the election, my Rov, too tremendously well known and respected across the yeshiva velt, said one thing about the election “dont talk about it by the Shabbos table.” Yet, following the inauguration, he gave a 45 minute drasha why the new administration is a catastrophe for klal yisroel. He prefaced the drasha by saying that every word he is about to say, is torah, and you would need to make a birchas HaTorah before hearing. Because it was Hashkafa, how a yid is supposed to view the events unfolding. He talked about there are some open anti semites, and anti israel, bds supporters among the democrat ranks(he didnt mention any names, in fact he didnt mention any politicians name throughout the drasha). He spoke about the culture, and the direction its heading. Catch, id really be interested to hear what your Rov has to say about these topics.
    Ctlawyer, you may be anti guns totally, but I dont see how you can say thats the torah perspective.(certainly not in accordance with the constitution)

    #1953794
    bored guy
    Participant

    there are around 600,000 abortions every year in usa and 10,000 homicides by firearm.
    maybe put criminals in jail and we won’t have shootings.

    #1953802
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Ayiddeshekup
    Since we were born and raised in New Haven, my BIL recommends hunting rifles by Winchester, Mossberg or Marlin (all nice local companies).

    We both learned to shoot rifles in summer camp some 60 years ago or so, but neither has handled one since.

    #1953804
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Instead of abortions let them bring it to term and give it up for adoption. They can even make money on it. I have two converted from birth adopted children now married with their children.

    #1953807
    er
    Participant

    Torahvalues: have you considered that the average democrat might not be as interested in promoting transgenderism and gay marrriage as much as the media and republicans paint that to be the case and continuously drill that into our minds? I have a hunch most democrats just go along with these policies for the reasons I stated in my previous post (i.e. a live-and-let-live outlook to protect even lifestyles and religions we disagree with is sure to protect Jews from persecution as well), not that they’re so interested in gay marriage per se.
    And by labeling the party as a bunch of perverts, people flee to the other side to the point where it becomes more and more true. Would like to hear your thoughts and also on the idea that protecting others is a way to protect ourselves, and that maybe it’s a reason to accept some bad with the good it could bring.

    #1953829
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    er, I agree, if we openly discriminate against a group, we create reasons to be discriminated. In galus, the Klei Yokor says on פנו לכם צפונה in Parashas Devorim, we must be hidden.

    #1953863

    RebE: teaching to fish.
    Agree on the principle, but not sure whether this is advantage D. It is about policy effects, not declarations. D- policies create too many disincentives to fishing. Gingrich’s welfare reform was very successful in moving people to work. Kudos to Clinton for going along. Same goes for school vouchers that help poor people to put their kids in functioning schools.

    er: I also agree that we need a balance between educating others and ensuring our community can thrive. It is a delicate one. I would say, if an issue is not critical for our community, we should not vote for something that is bad for the society in general. I disagree that D- will help us as “minorities”. Jews did indeed benefit from “multi-cultural” approach that reduced pressure to conform, but at this point we are seen as rich, successful (aka un-equitable) conservative oppressors, not “minorities”. I think we will be uncomfortable in any society where either Ds or Rs take full control. Maybe Hashem created them at 50% each, so that they let us live in-between…

    #1953865

    ER, in regards to gay marriage, it is my belief that the american government has no business getting involved. Yes its a toevah, but restricting and discriminating against them wouldnt necessarily benefit society as a whole(I dont say this with much confidence, I think it is debatable)
    However Trangenderism is a completely different story. Various barriers that were put in place to separate males and females, some very necessary barriers, are now being cut down. (separate bathrooms, separate sports, ect…) Furthermore, to teach children that this is normal, and to allow a confused 5yr old to permanently mutilate his body, is absolutely disgusting, yet this is where the left wants to bring us. I agree that there are many who simply go along with it to appease their base, I dont think Joe Biden, after 45 yrs in politics, suddenly believed that 8 yr olds should be able to choose to mutilate themselves, but l’moy nafcha mina.The next one to replace him will actually believe in it. And I understand completely, why 15-20yrs ago, you would feel slightly more protected by the Left than by the Right. But boy have things changed. There are just so many anti-semites, anti-israel democrats, not just among the “Radical Left”, but among currently elected/appointed officials in the democrat party. Yes there are plenty of scattered democrats who would stick up for us, possibly more so than most republicans, but this statement is becoming less and less true as we go on.

    #1953886
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @RebEliezer
    We also have 2 converted from birth adopted children (plus 5 Mrs. CTL birthed).

    Our big mouth local Republican acquaintances who are anti-abortion and anti-birth control (we live in a very Roman Catholic town..our Democratic Town Committee opposes these issues in the party platform) don/’t adopt. If 100K fertility treatments don’t work they remain childless, but they won’t take a non-white or non-pedigreed child into their families.
    In fact 80% of adoptions processes by Catholic Family Services in our area are to Jewish adoptive parents.

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