orthodox Jewish democrat?

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  • #1953925
    bored guy
    Participant

    The Rambam and many poskim hold abortion is murder, i’m not sure how you guys can keep thinking of reasons why it’s OK.
    BTW I watch a lot of msnbc, and cnn, all these crazy issues are are mentioned time again and again not just republicans and right wing media.
    How about Beto O’rourke who ran on, taking away tax breaks from shuls who don’t believe in gay marriage, is that live and let live?
    Still can’t think of one reason why an orthodox jew should vote democrat.

    #1953932

    CTLawyer, yashr koach, of course.

    accordin to adoption,org, whomever they are, 5% of Christians in US adopt, 2x over general population. 73% of adoptees are white, 37% of adopted are white. Several states have agencies that restrict adoptees to certain denominations, so you would not be able to adopt there.

    #1954023
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I adopted a converted boy from Columbia who is around 37 years old at six months old currently having three children. Also, a coverted girl of Italian origin as a baby born in NY who is 34 years old having a boy and a girl. Abortion is considered murder for non-Jews. For Jews, viabilify is from birth as mentioned by the Rabbenu Chezkinu in Parashas Mishpatim where money is paid for damages. What about 500,000 dead through Coronavirus and peoole starving from hunger which can be attributed to Trump?

    #1954024
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Eliezer,

    “ It is a greater mitzva to teach someone how to fish than give him a fish. ”

    Quotes with poor people and fish come from a very different religion.

    As far as your insistence that democrats provide Job Training, let me tell the facts. One of the largest job training programs in NY funded by government grants was shut down by the Democrats because they said why make people work, let’s just give them the money.

    However, the Democrats these days are not about providing support for people. They are about redistributing wealth. And controlling people. Neither of which are Torah concepts.

    #1954028
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    CT Lawyer vchol hanilvim alov,

    Who says that republicans, and those who are against abortion do not adopt? I hardly think you would categorize Amy Comey Barret as Democrat and she and her husband adopted two children. In fact she was ridiculed about those adoptions by the Democrats. Think about that.

    The issue about abortion is not what will we do with these kids. But, that abortion is considered so sacrosanct that there is no considering of consequences. Do whatever and just get an abortion. And according to many of the Democrats, up to the moment of birth and actually after because they are against laws protecting babies born alive from a botched abortion. And Ralph Northom said even after a regular birth. The discussions regarding abortion are not when the mother( if you can even use that word these days according to the Left) is in danger or the child is not viable. It is that the baby is considered a wart or even less.

    Jan Psaki in response to a question from a Catholic group about the law requiring doctors who are religious to perform sex change operations or abortions or sterilization said that Biden wants to protect Roe V Wade. This discussion is by elective procedures, why would a doctor be required to do elective procedures?

    Can you explain the thought process of some of these radicals who March around saying proudly how many abortions they’ve had? Now I know they are radicals, but they are the same people who are being called to testify in favor and they are not being castigated by pro abortion groups leaders.

    Yes, I am sure many who have abortions do so with remorse, but most it’s the remorse they got pregnant, not for the termination.

    I wonder how many fewer unwanted babies and pregnancies there would be if abortion wasn’t so easy and automatic.

    #1954039
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >What about 500,000 dead through Coronavirus and people starving from hunger which can be attributed to Trump?<

    That is a lie.
    Covid spread all over the globe.
    It would have spread under any President.

    #1954054
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft,
    “ It is a greater mitzva to teach someone how to fish than give him a fish. ”

    Quotes with poor people and fish come from a very different religion.

    If not in this terms but teaching a parnasa is a halacha, Rambam Hilchas Matnas Aniyim (10,7), Yesh Chachma Bagoyim. GIVE A MAN a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for his life time. — Italian proverb.

    #1954074
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    MadeAliyah, see how limited it is in Israel 5815 out of 9 million – .06%? Trump could have been more careful such that less people died. Israel did not down play the effect whereas Trump did.
    US 520,000 out of 330,000,000 – 15%

    #1954085
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Reb eliezer,

    Either that or two other reasons

    Comorbidity in America was attributed to the virus whereas in Israel it was attributed to the disease

    Governors wanted to inflate the numbers so they can receive more money from the government whereas in Israel they value life (more than money)

    #1954087
    Ayiddishekup
    Participant

    Eliezer u prob meant .015 percent not 15% kind of a big difference.

    #1954091
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    @Reb Eliezer

    The US and Israel are not comparable with regards to Covid for several reasons:

    1. The Israeli government has way more power to regulate than the US Federal gov. does.

    2. The US also has a lot more travel to and from China and other countries (and you only need one infected person to bring the virus into your country),

    3. The US got the virus much earlier than EY,so they had less info to work with.

    If you’re going to compare anyway, you might also want to criticise Biden for not vaccinating at the same speed that Israel is.

    #1954097

    There are so many factors behind virus statistics: variants are different, population distribution by age and diseases, genetics, population density, connections and pure randomness have an effect.
    it is really hard to make attributions unless you have direct cause-effect connection, like putting infected people back into nursing homes. And it is very easy to make bogus claims to support your view, please keep that in mind.

    If you look now at total deaths/mil per country, you see that many countries that had it OK for some time are now similar to other “leaders” – Sweden, France, Poland, Hungary … Among major Western countries, Germany and Canada seems to be only ones doing significantly better than others.

    Within the US, early “leaders” are still in the lead – liberal NE (from NJ to MA) states have 5 out of 7 worst states (2500 per mln) – higher than Belgium (1900). Closely following is six poor conservative states (Deep South and Dakotas). Remotest states are at the bottom – HI, AK, VT, MN,OR,UT,WA,NH – these are at German level (300-800 ). Some states similar to NE (VA, MN, MD) and to Deep South (KY,WV) are doing reasonably well.

    From taking it all together, it appears that connectivity to the world (esp Europe), high population density, large cities, being poor all contribute. In one of these factors, mobility, US is way worse off than Europe. It is much easier to stop travel thru Chunnel than between NY and NJ ..

    #1954117
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >Eliezer u prob meant .015 percent not 15% kind of a big difference.<

    You probably meant 0.15 percent.

    #1954128
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Israel is .15% whereas US is .6% four times as much.

    #1954139
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It is not correct above. US is .15% and Israel is .06%, so US is 2 1/2 times that of Israel.

    #1954172
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

     

     

    >Israel is .15% whereas US is .6% four times as much.<

    I’ll repeat:

    The US and Israel are not comparable with regards to Covid for several reasons:

    1. The Israeli government has way more power to regulate than the US Federal gov. does.

    2. The US also has a lot more travel to and from China and other countries (and you only need one infected person to bring the virus into your country),

    3. The US got the virus much earlier than EY,so they had less info to work with.

    If you’re going to compare anyway, you might also want to criticise Biden for not vaccinating at the same speed that Israel is.

    #1954196

    I think ive put forth some solid reasons to vote and support republicans, im still waiting on your counterarguments, in the form of actual policy you support.

    #1954231
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >I think I’ve put forth some solid reasons to vote and support republicans, I’m still waiting on your counterarguments, in the form of actual policy you support.<

    Don’t hold your breath.

    #1954228
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @nisht
    READ MY PODSTR before tearing it apart falsely.
    I was specific about Republicans in our very Roman Catholic Town.
    As an attorney who has practiced local family law for more than 40 years, I am in our town’s probate court regularly. I see all the adoptions recorded, because the local probate court issues the new birth certificates with the adoptive parents info. In fact about 15 years ago I served 2 terms as Probate Court Judge.
    Small town, 12,000 registered Republicans, I’m active in politics and have up to date voter lists, easy for my to verify whose adopting and it isn’t white Republicans.
    Amy the judge is not local to Fairfield County Connecticut. I don’t care for many of her decisions on the Federal bench but approve of her adopting children. She lives her life according to her beliefs, I don’t want to live my life according to her beliefs

    #1954289

    It looks like we are not capable of discussing politics in a kosher way, so maybe we can talk about baseball instead?!

    A witness is pasul, if he lies in one aspect of the case, right? Most people here implicated themselves by throwing in false statements borrowed from some cable or newspaper rags. Based on that, we are all not to be believed.

    And what is the point of repeating those sources anyway? Can we have a better conversation about this? This is, after all, being watched, recorded, indexed, and searched.

    #1954327
    er
    Participant

    TV: “I think ive put forth some solid reasons to vote and support republicans, im still waiting on your counterarguments, in the form of actual policy you support.”
    Apologies for such a long response, I got on a roll:

    You said, “I agree that there are many who simply go along with it to appease their base, . . . but l’moy nafcha mina.”

    I think most in support of gay or transgender rights are primarily “appealing to the base” in the sense that the Dem’s basic premise is live and let live so long as it doesn’t interfere with someone else’s quality of life. I agree this has expanded in some uncomfortable and troubling ways and I do have concerns it could have a negative effect to society; in my mind, there’s a difference between generally letting people live as they want, and actively advocating and celebrating that lifestyle, which erodes family values. I wish we’d find ways in politics and society to achieve the former without bleeding into the latter.

    Nevertheless, in the LONG TERM the democratic party would stick up for a frum Jew’s general right to practice than republicans. If you’re looking to specifically compare red and blue policies, I agree with you there are seemingly compelling arguments to go red: they actively promote G-d and family values. But again, I think most or many republicans who talk like this is really more into “Christian culture” (i.e. WHITE-GENTILE),” and them talking about family values is really more of a code word for advocating the dominance of the historical white and simplistic homogeneity they have (or used to have) in their own communities. Hopefully I don’t sound like I just walked off a college campus, but there’s truth there. Now let’s assume for a moment Trump really has unconditional love for Jews (though I beg to differ). He doesn’t tell his supporters this, has also egged on or supported anti-semetic groups, remained silent, etc. Once once Trump is gone, Jews will be one of the first casualties of this nationalistic, nativist, and populist movement.

    Transgenderism: I’m no expert on this. But seems to be a rare enough that I would hate for anyone to define their political identity around it or what to do in a sad situation where someone and their family are psychologically suffering over this. I don’t know much on this, but who knows what WE would do? Again, we don’t want to celebrate or normalize this stuff. But I don’t think people are “inspired” to be transgender, I would doubt any of them are actively intending to rebel against Hashem, and there are only a few of these cases compared to our population.

    In all, you raise some good points. I have concerns with advocating certain lifestyles on par with traditional values. But once the White-Gentile party dominates politically and becomes emboldened, they won’t have our backs. Forcing laws down people’s throats aren’t so good at changing values anyway, and even builds up evil forces that cling to these seemingly good movements (look at Roe v. Wade). If you have children, you’d understand this. We need to also inspire, teach, and befriend. Neither party figured this balance out.

    #1954335
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Er,

    You can choose to believe what you want to believe but that doesn’t make it true

    The Democrats have taken G-d out of their charter, closed shuls and targeted them whereas BLM rallies didn’t matter and has thrown Israel under the bus

    #1954369

    ER, I appreciate your response, though here is where I think your dead wrong. The Republican Party has become incredibly diversified over the last decade, we are no longer catering to ”White nationalists”. While these groups are considered to be on the Right, they have little-to-no voice in the party. The Right promotes and support Israel, there is a organization called EndJewHatred, and i see it being promoted by Right wing voices, not Left. The Left supports those who seek Israels destruction. Yes, as you said, I’m sure there are democrats out there who would support us jews, but their implemented policy just doesnt mirror that.
    And in regards to transgenderism, I agree with the general principle of ‘live and let live”. And so, if a 40yr old wanted to mutilate his/her body, go ahead, I have no problem with that. But to teach kids that this is normal?? To encourage kids to “come out” as trans, and let THEM destroy their body?? NOT OKAY! Btw studies have shown that almost up to 90% of kids with Gender dysphoria,
    actually grow up normal, without the issue. Yet we should let these 90% permanently and irreversibly destroy themselves?

    #1954368
    er
    Participant

    Always Ask Questions:
    “Maybe Hashem created them at 50% each, so that they let us live in-between…”

    Insightful. There is also the argument that we should want the parties to bicker so nothing gets done so that we’re left alone. The last thing we want is an efficient system of government like the right wing governments Germany and Italy had. One problem with that is when the deadlock creates a culture that spills into the public and leads to incitement and hate, as we’ve seen. Not to mention overzealos Jews who start identifying with these cultures as a major component of their Jewish identities, as we’re also seeing. A good Shabbos-

    #1954383
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Er

    Don’t forget the left wing governments of soviet Russia and Cuba

    #1954385
    er
    Participant

    T. Values: I think I acknowledged there’s a problem teaching kids this is normal. But I simply disagree as to the character of the republican party. It’s become more diversified but the ethnicities who join are more often used as props to show they’re not anti-whatever. Frum Jews in the party are
    like a tiny spec compared to the overall numbers. Most members probably don’t know of their support (though I’m guessing here). The fact that derivatives of Qanon conspiracies have been embraced by the establishment is proof it’s still very white/christian, as well as the ties many of the insurrectioinists have to white supremacy groups – These ARE an indespensable part of Trump’s base. Republican pro-Israel agenda is to further an evangelical proficy, which swung way to the right to throw it in the democrats’ faces that republicans support Israel more. But it’s not for the love of Jews. I meet religious Christians who repsect us but I also meet some who show they don’t. Most but not all of Trump’s Israel policies and ALL of his pro-Israel rhetoric are short-termed provocative measures that can be overturned and have inflamed the other side. I’d rather Israel be helped quietly without being tossed around like a football. I hope Biden will llive up to that. If you disagree on my characterization of the party then let’s leave it at that because we’re probably not going to make headway.

    #1954398

    ER, debate usually doesn’t end up convincing the other side(human nature) but at least we can settle upon exactly what we disagree with. I just don’t know what you by “but the ethnicities who join are more often used as props to show they’re not anti-whatever”-All the newly elected Republican members to the House this cycle are either woman or minorities, because that’s who Republicans chose. Trump got the largest % of the black vote than any Republican on the last 60yrs.
    “Frum Jews in the party are
    like a tiny spec compared to the overall numbers. Most members probably don’t know of their support (though I’m guessing here).”-not sure what you mean here, frum Jews make up a tiny spec of america’s population. In less you mean %wise, in which case a viral Ami magazine poll showed 85% of frum Jews supporting Trump.
    You say “The fact that derivatives of Qanon conspiracies have been embraced by the establishment”-i have no clue where you get this from, the one Represetitve(MTG)who was found to have supported quanon in the past, had to publicly apologize for it.
    The insurrections are who you have seen plastered across all front news pages, but are a tiny fraction of the rest of the base. They may have screamed very loudly but they have no voice in the party.
    As for israel, all Biden has done is try to return to the disastrous Iran deal, and fund those who seek israel’s destruction. It is no secret that Israel preferred Trump over Biden. At the end of the day, whatever is attracting you to the democrats, overrides the horrific culture they are bringing America to??

    #1954410

    Er>>The last thing we want is an efficient system of government like the right wing governments Germany and Italy had

    Exactly. Italians seem to realize their mistake and they change their governments pretty often. Israelis are trying that too… Could you imagine if either of extreme Israeli parties were in the firm control of the government for 4 years?!

    In American system, gridlock is, of course, part of the design. Only items that substantial groups agree to will pass. The danger is the Polish Seim experiment – each member had a veto power and eventually nothing passed, until the country declined and was partitioned by neighbors. Now, suddenly nobody had a vote …

    Also, part of the frustration and fight for Presidency is atrophy of local and Congressional democracy. Why do we need feds to decide minimal wage and order of vaccination? Why do we need Presidents issuing EOs when Congress could make a law.

    #1954422

    Oh, I see you also claim trump egged on and supported anti semetic groups -what are you talking about?? Please don’t refer back to the Charlottesville Lie.

    #1954547
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We find the the Hagadah no difference between the chacham and the rasha both using expressions which exclude themelves why? The Chasan Sofer explains the chacbam does this on purpose in order the rasha should reveal itself by thinking the chacham is also a rasha. So the rasha says you are rasha and exclude yourself, I am also a rasha. Trump by not standing up at Chalottesville gave tbe impession that he is also a white supremacist.

    #1954596

    “And I’m not talking about the neo nazis or white supremacists, they should be condemned, totally”, he’s greatly supported israel, he’s put policy into place to combat anti semitism here in america,….but haters will hate…
    Either way this is rather irrelevant, I’ve explained in depth why I support the Republican Party, and I’ve asked nicely for you guys(Reb E, Charlie, huju, jackk…) to explain why you support democrats, in terms of specific policy, now your not mechuyav to do anything, but your silence is pretty telling….

    #1955172
    er
    Participant

    TV: “At the end of the day, whatever is attracting you to the democrats, overrides the horrific culture they are bringing America to??”

    I guess so. I would still vote for specific republicans (and have in the past) but I generally trust the democratic party at this point in history to provide the long-termed stability we all need. And I would hope more people with traditional family values support them in order to center the party. Yes, the GOP is more diverse but they’re still not there. And the black men who voted for Trump overwhelingly voted for a personality, don’t expect to see them at the next GOP convention. The fact that the majority of republicans remained silent with the attempt to baselessly overthrow the election (in my educated opinion) is dangerous, and this should frighten Jews. To support the party I’d have to see a sincere renumciation. I’d also want to see the party move away from Trump’s cult of personality. We think he loves us, but he only “likes” any person or group who obeys him, and once you’re on that train it never ends (…pen yifteh l’vavchem . . .elohim acheirim).
    So yes, I’d rather lose some policy battles than to wake up one day and find I am being ruled by a totaliatarian government. The fact that republicans would might happen to like or accept religious Jews would be of limited solace, because it could happen the other way too, as it has many times in history.

    #1955192
    charliehall
    Participant

    Just looked at some election district by election district results. Biden carried every election district in Riverdale, Teaneck, Passaic, Skokie, and Toco Hills, usually by pretty big margins. The idea that orthodox Jews are automatically Trump supporters is not backed up by data. Still waiting on California data.

    #1955187
    charliehall
    Participant

    I’ve known numerous gun nut Democrats. My wife’s family are far left and love their guns. Go to Vermont and you will find that a lot of Bernie Sanders supporters are armed to the teeth. (Proud Boys better not try anything up there in the mountains.) I’ve been to Texas, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Alaska and I’ve never seen anyone other than a hunter or a law enforcement officer open carrying; I’ve seen it a lot in Vermont. Oh and you have never needed a permit to carry in Vermont.

    #1955203
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    How much do you know about skokie?

    #1955280
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >The fact that the majority of republicans remained silent with the attempt to baselessly overthrow the election (in my educated opinion)<

    Please tell us who attempted to baselessly overthrow the election.

    #1955303
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Charlie,

    Try Arizona

    My family members tell me there are a lot of people that carry

    #1955307
    er
    Participant

    “Please tell us who attempted to baselessly overthrow the election.”

    Plenty of other threads and many more reliable articles abound on this. If you consider yourself educated on this point and you’re not budging, then your message is a big reason why I am personally turned off by the republican party. At least TorahValue’s premises make some logical sense. But your message may have pushed me even further from joining a party that you don’t seem too eager to invite me to anyway!

    #1955372

    Id go so far to daringly suggest that todays Republican party resembles the democrat party of 30yrs ago, much more than todays democrat party.
    Charlie, id love to know the %of population that are orthodox jews in the districts you mentioned, and how it relates to other districts, with the results. Hard for me to find all this data, I do know, via google search, that Ocean county, (lakewood township, jackson…), Trump won 63.8% of the vote. You cant just look at a county that has a comparatively larger orthodox jewish population, and draw conclusions. The only real way to know is via a poll taken of just “orthodox” jews. The only poll I know of is the Ami Magazine poll, taken from 1,000 people in a few different states.

    #1955399
    bored guy
    Participant

    sorry charlie i misspoke i know many modern orthodox jew who were big trump supporters.
    btw this is not about trump but rather republican agenda vs democrat agenda.

    #1955398
    bored guy
    Participant

    hay charlie look at lakewood and boro park data. trump won by a landslide.
    just admit it people who are more religious generally vote republican.

    #1955404

    >> people who are more religious generally vote republican.

    I don’t want to start another flame war, but calling one group of observant Jews “more religious” than another is not a good form. I do agree that majority of more conservative Jews vote Republican – despite benefitting from D- redistribution policies. At the same time, more “liberal” (in American sense, not in classical liberal) observant Jews are split about 50-50 – despite benefitting from R- pro-business and pro-Israel policies.

    #1956124
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    I don’t know what the whole debate here is about, but it is very clear you should vote Democrat. As the Republican party refuses to deal with climate change they are allowing the world hashem gave us to be destroyed. Debating capitalistic versus socialist policies (never met anyone coherent that supported any absolute here) or other issues, is really silly if all we are worried about is the next few years. The next generation will have to deal with the worst crisis in history and it will inevitably bring much pain and suffering, unless we take steps now to mitigate it.

    So yeah, debate what you want, but if you simply whitewash climate change, you are ignorant. How can I debate you, when you have trouble recognizing reality? I can get into details of Climate Change if you wanted to debate it, but the mod would probably prefer not and would likely block my comments as the science of it touches on some very touchy matters.

    So, here, you have one single overriding reason why you should vote Democrat. I don’t think there is anything to debate as you will simply deny climate change, which makes this critical issue in your eyes a non-issue.

    #1956683
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I like Mitt Romney, John Kasic, Adam Kinzinger and Liz Chenney among Republicans.

    #1956704
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >I like Mitt Romney, John Kasic, Adam Kinzinger and Liz Chenney among Republicans.<

    But do they care about climate change?

    Don’t you know that “allowing the world hashem gave us to be destroyed” is the “single overriding” Aveirah?

    #1956793
    bored guy
    Participant

    38,000 people are killed every year in car accidents.
    15,000 died of firearm deaths.
    so why is gun control so important?
    also a lot of it, is gang violence, gangs somehow manage to sell illegal drugs so i’m sure they’ll get guns too.
    and they usually kill each other. so no one is bothering you.
    one thing the republican party is not just trump. so this is not a conversation about trump or biden.

    #1956829

    ENS i dont even know where to start in my response to you. “I can get into details of Climate Change if you wanted to debate it, but the mod would probably prefer not and would likely block my comments as the science of it touches on some very touchy matters.” Yea, matters of Kefirah. When I hear some Gedolim coming in mass support of combating “climate change”, we can actually get into the specifics.
    As for Gun control, the constitution is clear, I do actually support background checks, I dont see any downside to that. As for the Torah perspective, I dont see anywhere in the Torah, and dont know of any Takonos put in place against owning weapons. I do know the Torah supports and talks about self-defense…

    #1956831

    Emes>> As the Republican party refuses to deal with climate change

    What is your position on green nuclear energy? It should be able to save the world.

    #1956845
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    tvp – Not getting into any debate on climate change or matters that some may be concerned that touch on kefirah. The science is, what the science is. As to Gedolim, for one that spends as much effort as you posting stuff here, I question what your adherence to whichever gedolim you prefer is. Seems more like a term you are throwing around to support your argument then anything you internalize.

    AAQ – green nuclear energy sounds great, but last time I did some research on the topic, I recall coming away that there are many practical challenges with it. The rosy picture that adherents of it present is a bit too optimistic. For the short-term, windmills and solar is probably the best we can do.

    #1956897
    MadeAliyah
    Participant

    >ENS i dont even know where to start in my response to you.<

    It is my firm belief that ENS is actually a Republican troll trying to make Democrats look stupid.

    I think it’s unnecessary ENS, the Dems have proven that they are quite capable of doing it on their own.

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