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  • This topic contains 67 replies, has 30 voices, and was last updated by  Jothar 10 years ago.
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  • #669129

    000646
    Participant

    Jothar and HaLeiVi,

    With all due respect, I think you guys are missing the point.

    If BDERECH HATEVA learning protects more then soldiers then how come those who WERE learning werent able to overcome (or survive) soldiers that attacked them during the Holocaust and other periods in Jewish history.

    Entire yeshivos of people who most definitly were learning very well have been wiped out.

    Why didnt their learning protect them?

    #669130

    Jothar
    Member

    000646, this question is dealt with by the Ramchal in Daas Tevunos and Derech Hashem, and by others as well. The question goes back even further to the Baalei tosfos who died in the Crusades, the Tannaim who died during the Churban Bayis Sheini and Churban Beitar, the nevi’im who died during churban bayis rishon, etc. The answer is that during times of danger and sha’as hadin, even learning can’t necessarily save someone. The Holocaust is an old question, just on a larger scale.

    #669131

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Jothar, we need both learning and fighting. When Yaakov went to meet Eisav, he prepared for a battle. In ancient times, the Jews had an army to actually fight. Why did they need it? Why didn’t they just sit and learn? In fact, the ones doing the fighting were the ones who were usually learning, which means there were far less people learning while they were fighting!

    We need both. Tevah is not that learning protects you. Tevah is that a sword or a gun protects you, with Hashem’s help.

    #669132

    000646
    Participant

    Jothar,

    Allow me to clarify,

    Here is an example of what i am asking

    In 2008 there was a terrorist attack in the mercaz harav yeshiva in yerushalyim 8 bochrim were killed. The terorist was going strong untill an IDF SOLDIER shot the terrorist dead and stopped him. (there are many other examples like this one)

    If learning protects bderech hateva the same amount as a soldier does why did a soldier stop the terrorist? the learning that went on in the yeshiva should have been enough.

    #669133

    Jothar
    Member

    00646, because when you’re dealing with a terrorist someone has to be shooting a gun. The idea of Torah magna umatzla doesn’t mean you don’t need soldiers. Someone learning Torah properly prevents the terrorist from being successful, but they still need a shliach (ie a soldier) to kill the terrorist. Dovid Hamelech learned a lot of Torah, but he still needed to physically fight wars to be Hashem’s shaliach. There was a whole mob fighting the Romans by churban bayis sheini, but “Im Hashem lo yishmor ir, shav shakat shomer”. During war, Israel’s bus drivers take soldiers to the front. Yet, I don’t hear anyone say one should be a bus driver over a soldier, even though the driver’s role is vital.

    #669134

    000646
    Participant

    jothar,

    So the statement that was made that “one person learning does more then the entire IDF” isnt true then right? This was my point.

    #669135

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Jothar. that’s because nobody is calling the drivers Nazis, and saying that we don’t need them. If there’s no argument against it, you don’t need to publicize the need.

    #669136

    arc
    Participant

    I heard R’ moshe tuvia leif saying bshem someone but I forget who that every soldier in the IDF that gets killed died al kiddush hashem because they were only killed for being a jew.

    #669137

    Jothar
    Member

    We’re talking hoya and floyah. While the physical soldier is the shaliach, the zechuyos are determined by the mitzvos and learning done. A gvir’s accountant gies out a lots of tzedakah money checks. Without him the checks don’t go out. Is he an important person? yes. Is he as important as the gvir whose money he’s giving out? No.

    The soldier is indeed saving lives, and we must have hakaras hativ to the soldiers. But someone learning gives the soldier spiritual ammo to succeed.

    #669138

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Jothar, maybe risking your life to protect the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews is a zchus in itself.

    #669139

    Jothar- but without the gvir’s accountant, the money would not be given out…either at all, not as much or not as steady. In the same way, there needs to be a soldier to direct the bullets. Each has its own role and job. Each one is as important and without one part it would be hard to get the job done.

    #669140

    g73
    Member

    I gotta agree with Feif Un. The willingness to be moser nefesh for am yisroel is a huge zechus in it’s own right. we need both the soldiers in the field and the ones in the beis medrash!

    #669141

    MaKesher
    Member

    ???? ???? I very much agree with you

    #669142

    onlyemes
    Member

    I cannot be 100% sure, but it seems clear that none of you posters have ever been asked to actually risk your lives for the sake of the Jewish people. None of you have been shot at with telescope guided rifles, had mortar shells directed right at you, or have had to experience booby trap bombs explode in your faces. You should kiss the feet of those soldier Jews who care enough about other Jews to be willing to do what I just described, many of them saying tehillim or mishnayos as they go about their duties.

    EDITED

    #669143

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Jothar- that analogy doesn’t work. The soldier has free will and exercises it to protect the lives of Jews.

    #669144

    Obviously HKB”H wants both, because they both exist. It is the yiras shomayim that is not biday shomayim, and that is up to each individual.

    #669145

    oomis
    Participant

    OnlyEmes said it best, in my opinion.

    #669146

    Jothar
    Member

    Havesomeseichel, agreed 100%. Everyone has a role. Not everyone is meant to sit and learn, and they would do much more good for klal yisroel protecting lives than wasting time in the beis midrash. There’s a reason why “Nachal” has the support of most oif the litvishe gedolim. But for those who can accomplish while learning, they are better off learning than being a soldier.

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