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Stories of people who went off and are back on? What worked and what backfired? How long were they OTD for? What is the best way to combat it in our communities?
Most of the time was bec they hated their parents.. be good parents your kids will fine.. you live for your kids not for youself.
so at night when you come home leave your blackberry, iphone, ipad, laptop, …. at the front door…..
According to the world at large,it’s ALL your parents’ fault.
According to the Bais Din Shel Maalah,you may TRULY have a very challenging childhood,but we are ALL somewhat responsible for THE CHOICES WE MAKE.
thank you eclipse-i think hating your parents is a choice you make
i think most parents really strive to make their home wonderful for their kids within the limits of the various pressures/phobias/stuff that they are dealing with
most people who go the full mile, at the end of the day when the parent is 60+ and the child is 30+ usually love their parents and think they did an incredible job.
anyway on the subject-I heard about a great book- “Just One Jew” (available at feldheim.com) that takes you through one OTD experience that is incredible.
Being OTD isnt like having a cold.
It happens for a multitude of reasons and not everyone comes back for it.
You cant pinpoint causes and you can only really speculate as to what works to bring people back
There is no cure all and rather then view it as an epidemic or the frum communities favortie situation a “crisis”..view it as an individual condition that is not contagious by promixmity.
Most of the time was bec they hated their parents
I’ve got to say, thinking of all the OTD people I know, I can’t think of a single one where there is any hatred of parents. Every single OTD person that I know still loves their parents.
The Wolf
Just One Jew was one great book!
every single one that i know, and i know quite many, have very strong anger towards their parents, mingled with a significant element of “hatred”
they also love them as well
seeallsides, the operative word is most but not all
I am not an expert in this field nor do I claim to be, but in my experience (speaking w boys who have gone OTD, and have come back some totally some semi) I am under the impression that many times it comes from a lack of appreciation for Yiddishkeit and laziness.
If you do not fully appreciate Yiddishkeit and Hash-m why would you want to wake up in the morning and go to Daven? Why would you want to dedicate a whole day of your week to Him? Why would you want to limit your desires because He said so?
edited
every single one that i know, and i know quite many, have very strong anger towards their parents, mingled with a significant element of “hatred”
Then we must know *very* different people.
The Wolf
The flames of hatred are FANNED by others.
You can hate/pity, hate/yearn and hate/other-mixed-feeling
BUT!! HATE/HATE is helped along by others.
The fact that you cant make a suggestion for Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs to change is also part of the problem. (Hence my previous edit)
I was OTD for a while a bunch of years ago. I had no anger at all towards my parents. I had a lot of anger towards different Rabbeim I had in yeshiva, such as:
The one who called my parents shegutzim, when he said “Only shegutzim go to college. Are you a sheigitz?”
The one who accused me of something I didn’t do, in front of the whole class. When I denied doing it, I was kicked out of class – for 3 days. I found out that someone else had admitted to it. Why was I punished? Because I denied it, and it’s chutzpah to disagree with the rebbe.
The one who sent me to kindergarten for 2 days when someone lied about me to get me in trouble. When the lie was found out, nothing was done to the other boy, because his father is a rebbe in the yeshiva.
The one who walked over to me and roughly stuck his hand into the shoulder of my shirt. He said he wanted to be sure I was wearing tzitzis.
The one who, without warning, went through my private possessions in the dorm and threw out whatever he felt was inappropriate. No warning to take it home, just threw it all out.
There are others, but I think this post is getting too long.
The Goq-o boy are u right-there are unfortunately very nasty situations that exist-but my point is that a person has the ability to VIEW things with their own choice of lenses. I have seen OTD people who just saw everything their parents did with a BAD EYE. It doesn’t say that there are no unforgivable situations, but as with everything in life, you can’t change others, you can only change your views/reactions and make your choices accordingly.
maynish-you are over-simplifying things…
i think my concept of OTD must be quite different from other posters here.
i think my concept of OTD must be quite different from other posters here.
My concept of OTD is that they are no longer actively observing the mitzvos — usually the mitzvos of Kashrus, Shabbos (and Yom Tov) and Taharas HaMishpacha on a consistent basis.
The Wolf
Mod 80, what is your concept of OTD?
im not in the NY or Yeshivish world
where i hang out, i cant be rigorous in the definition, but i thought it referred to a certain group of boys (almost always its boys) who have thrown away almost all elements of Judaism, left their home and parents, are always in trouble, spend a lot of time with goyim and girls, drugs, and frequently run afoul of the law.
i see now that this is not the mainstream usage of this phrase
some of those “girls” are the OTD girls.
Mod,
Those kids are OTD — but they’re OTD of life itself, not yiddishkeit.
The Wolf
maynish- often it can be because they hate their parents and their parents dont give them enough attention. but that is not always the reason. it can be because they have problems emotionally, socially, or spiritually
feifun- im really sorry for all those things that happened to you, but im gonna have to argue on one point
The one who, without warning, went through my private possessions in the dorm and threw out whatever he felt was inappropriate. No warning to take it home, just threw it all out.
the rebbe has every rigth to through out all inappropriate stuff without warning. you live in the dorm based on the yeshivas rules, if they dont allow certain things and you have them, they have every rigth to do what they want ith it.
the other stories i totally agree with you on.
regardless of how bad it is the rebbe has the right to confiscate it because its against the yeshiva policy
the rebbe has the right
Because one has the right to do something, that doesn’t mean that it should be done. One can do much harm doing things that they have a technical right to do.
Considering the fact that Feif Un lists it as a possible reason why he went off the derech, I’d say the rebbe made a grave mistake… even if he was technically in the right.
The Wolf
seeallsides if u had grown up the way i did u wouldnt be able to see your parents in a good light or with a good eye, just sayin
Chayav- how can you say that?
If the rebbe knows/sees that a boy has something inappropriate there, he should tell him to get rid of it or give a consequence.
He has no right, in any way, to look through a boy’s private belongings.
(Even as a parent, I would feel a bit guilty going through my childs drawers. It shows a very strong lack of trust.)
There was nothing inappropriate about the books he took away from me. When I confronted him about it, he told me a yeshiva guy shouldn’t be reading any novels, even the Jewish ones put out by Artscroll. He said that if I liked to read in bed at night before going to sleep, I should keep a Tanach near my bed and read through the Neviim.
smartcookie~ you are spot on with your post.
The Goq – my heart breaks for what you have gone through – May Hashem help you with everything for a long and happy future.
Not even an edited version of my post? Ok, I’ll try again.
Many people consider me off the derech even though I learn daily, am shomer Torah uMitzvos, and do chesed. They consider me off the derech because I refuse to play games with my yiddishkeit. I see many people who are considered “on” despite doing many averos — including bein adam lamakom, which people somehow consider more important — that I don’t do, simply because they are willing to play along with the shtick. They wear the uniform. They go to the right shuls and talk through davening. They go to yeshivos and pretend to learn, and they are considered “on.” I don’t do shtick, so I am considered “off.” Fortunately I had a good rebbi in High School and I didn’t drop Torah entirely, but many people do. Mikehall, you want to know how to fight it? Cut the shtick and people will come back.
The real problem these days is not the OTD kid who’s into drugs, etc. The real problem is with the kid who is simply indifferent – who just walks away, literally or emotionally. Many of these young people stay on good terms with their parents, even come home for Yom Tov, etc. They just don’t have any feelings for Yiddishkeit. How is this happening? Feif Un has one take on it. The yeshiva system has some very strange and not so nice or wise things going on. Rebbeim don’t know how to handle students who aren’t “perfect.” Kids are being taught fantastic sounding midrashim as pashut fact and then being punished for not believing. There are all sorts of questionable things being done by supposed “frum” people in terms of bein adam l’chavero or in business. Maybe one factor alone wouldn’t do it, but a combination of factors might be too much for a sincere and questioning kid.
So what’s to be done?
Kids are being taught fantastic sounding midrashim as pashut fact and then being punished for not believing.
As heretical as that sounds, you are correct. Rishonim, including the Ramban say that you are not supposed to believe every midrash.
ItcheSrulik – Miztvos Bein Adam LaMakom are important. But what many frum-looking people do not “get” is that mitzvos Bein Adam l’Chaveiro are ALSO Mitzvos Bein Adam LaMakom!That is one of the reasons why Hashem is not mechapeir on those mitzvos, because the Oveir not only transgressed against Hashem, he transgressed against another person, and he has to first seek redress with that person whom he damaged by his actions. So it’s a double whammy. Interesting, is it not, that of the three yehareig v’al yaavors, only ONE of them directly relates only to Hashem. The other two are affronts to Mankind AND Hashem.
Aha. Now we put the finger on it. The reason people are going off, is because of Medrash!
Mikehall, consider it answered.
It’s not the only reason, but plenty of people have stopped believing everything because they though it was an all-or-nothing deal with every mutually exclusive medrash thrown in.
oomis, you hit the nail on the head. I once asked one of the Roshei Yeshiva where I was about this. I asked him, “People tell me that I should try to emulate such-and-such guys. They’re considered the best guys in the yeshiva. Yet they do nothing but make me miserable. They are constantly chewing me out on things they think I’m doing wrong. They are not nice people. Yes, they can learn well, but they are just not nice to me and many others! I was always told derech eretz kodma l’Torah. They obviously never heard that.”
The Rosh Yeshiva told me to try and separate the two parts, and learn from them about learning. I told him some of my experiences in the past, and told him that I couldn’t separate them. In my mind, someone who sits and learns is not a nice person, and I didn’t want to be like that. He didn’t have an answer for me.
At that point, I knew that I never wanted to sit and learn full time. I spoke to one of my Rabbeim, and he advised me to finish the zman, and then enroll in a yeshiva half the day and go to college. I found a yeshiva, and enrolled in Touro. I then told the Rosh Yeshiva I was leaving after the zman. He told me that I was throwing my life away, and I could never be a good, frum Jew if I went to college. He said I needed to stay in yeshiva, and eventually become a kollel guy. I wasn’t interested.
For the rest of the zman, I was bothered by what the Rosh Yeshiva said. I decided that if I couldn’t be a good Jew when I went to Touro, why bother trying? If I was doomed to failure, what was the point? I gave up on everything Jewish. Yet, I didn’t do drugs, and I found a job part-time so that I was doing something productive. I wasn’t stupid, I just had issues with religion. Oddly, my relationship with my parents was way better than it was when I’d been in yeshiva.
Eventually, I became frum again, but not the kind my family wanted. My brothers are in kollels, my sisters want to marry kollel guys. I wear a kippah srugah, have a TV in my house, etc. But you know what? I think I’m a good Jew the way I am. Maybe some of my family members don’t think so, but I don’t really care. I do the best I can, even though it’s still difficult. After a few years of sleeping until 8:30 every morning, do you think it’s easy to get up at 5:30 to make sure I put on my tallis and tefillin? My family doesn’t understand it.
That’s another issue I have with all the organizations for OTD people. They spend hours trying to find causes, and blame TV, the internet, movies, and many other things. But they don’t understand. They never went through it, so how could they possibly know what is going through the head of a teenager going through a rough time?
The best people to do kiruv are those who are baalei teshuva themselves, as they can relate.
ty seeallsides b”h things are well for me now
feif un im sorry you are completely right i thought that you were referring to innapropriate things. i think its crazy to tell a guy if he wants to read he shoulld read navi, a guy needs to relax and navi wont relax him
I think turning chumras into halacha and making people think they need to be followed may account for some going off the derech.
Sender Av: that sort of fits with what I said before, which is that many people say “Follow this path or you’re not a good Jew.”
Chayav inish: I wasn’t reading Artscroll books, I just want to clarify that. I had a few novels, but there was nothing inappropriate in them. I made sure of that before I read them – they were all books from an author my parents also enjoyed reading, and they gave me the ok to read them. I just wrote that to show the Rosh Yeshiva’s point of view on reading.
As I said, I think one of the biggest problems now is that the so-called “experts” on teens going OTD aren’t really experts. They never went through it, and they can’t relate. The best people to get the OTD teens back on are the ones who got back on themselves. They can relate to the mindsets of the teens, and have also figured out the answers to many of the questions they have.
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