August 28, 2018 8:52 am at 8:52 am #1580854
I have a few questions.
1. Is it wise to try and engage them in something from Yiddishkeit, like a sefer or learning from whatsapp groups which download the shiur?
or is it better to not because the adult has decided for themselves and it’s better to respect this independant decision?
2. Is it wise to see what went wrong at all.
3. If Number 1 is not advised what does one do at all to bring him back to Yiddishkiet as I dont think anyone would say that he should stay not frum etc for the long haul.August 28, 2018 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1581114👑RebYidd23Participant
It really depends on the situation. Some kids who go OTD also have other issues, such as drugs. Some have PTSD. Other OTD kids don’t seem to have any particular triggers or other issues, they just question or reject religion while otherwise seeming to be quite average. There are a lot of different situations involving OTD kids. Each situation requires its own unique response.August 28, 2018 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1581056
Its best not to enagage at all and just show that child love. “Tough Love” will likley fail and estrange you from the kid. Best hope is to continue to treat the child with love (and Boundaries like not breaking shabbos in house or bringing in Non-Kosher food..But most would likely accept that) and hope whatever turned them off will get lost
Giving them shiurum will likley not work either, if the person hates torah and learning, giving them more torah and learning isnt going to workAugust 28, 2018 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1581025
It really depends on why he went off. Generally nowadays is an emotional reason not an intellectual one (although to justify it after the fact they may seek intellectual reasons as well.) important to know the cause. If it was due to negative emotional experiences, then probably number one is not advisable as it implies, atop the baggage he already has, that you don’t care about HIM, but just about his frumkeit level. Generally, the way to bring them back is with love and unconditional acceptance (although that doesn’t mean accepting / encouraging their behaviour, and also doesn’t mean you can’t set rules for their behaviour in your house).
But really every child is an individual, and healing the cause of why they went off helps to bring them back.
Also every mitzvah they do / are happy to do with you, counts. It’s not all or nothing.August 28, 2018 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1581554The little I knowParticipant
What is the Yiddishkeit to which you want them to return? If it resembles what they ran from, you won’t get anywhere.
Sadly, much of today’s Yiddishkeit is devoid of true spiritual connection to a alarming degree. We are far too busy with external trappings, the glamour and glitz, the photos and publicity, the size of weddings and other events. The individual connection to Hashem was never determined by a grade on a test/bechina, and one’s choice of work versus learning tells you nothing about their commitment to Torah and its values.
OTD kids are escaping a life in which they felt rejected. It is rarely an intellectual challenge. They cannot tolerate remaining in a world where boundaries are perceived as constraints, where any deviation from an arbitrary norm is labeled as defective, and where one is cookie cut into a pattern that is incongruous with ones set of strengths and weaknesses. Success and failure is judged by external criteria, and is a flagrant violation of חנוך לנער על פי דרכו.
The attributions of OTD issues to internet are not laughable, they are pitifully wrong. I know a huge number of OTD kids, and have never, ever met one who “went off” because of internet. They went to that address after they “left” because they would not be rejected, and could at least entertain themselves.
Until we make Torah and Mitzvos something that our kids enjoy and value, we will continue to watch youth seek solace and acceptance everywhere else. And as long as we fail miserably in doing that with everyone, we will definitely get nowhere trying to entice an OTD kid to reconsider Yiddishkeit.August 28, 2018 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1582425ToiParticipant
Ya kids don;t go off the D because of the internet, they usually get sucked in to the culture once they’re well on their way. Adults, though, I think they go off because of the internet. I have a good friend who I consider an apikores who went that way because he started reading too much philosophy on the net. Brilliant guy. What a waste.August 28, 2018 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1582437DovidBTParticipant
Adults, though, I think they go off because of the internet.
The internet is a neutral resource. The internet was my primary tool for becoming observant.August 28, 2018 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1582438anonymous JewParticipant
toi, if your adult friend had a strong attachment, understanding and identification with Yiddishkeit, he would not have been derailed by the internet. It may have been the final push, but it seems that he had doubts and issues that he may nor have confided with you about.August 28, 2018 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1582486
We allowed him to go to work on Shabbos. At the time I was afraid of him using hard drugs. He has used some Marijuana but not on a regular basis, it’s situational if a friend has some. He uses more tobbacco now and wants to stop that. I am sorry i did not know at the time of a frum company that has similar sales work to what he is now doing but it’s too late, he is rising a little in that company.
I believe he left bec all his life he was not doing well in learning, he would sit in Shiurim but was not getting it or enjoying it. He has a hard job but he is doing ok but its really too many hours so he has no time for anything. Now he has moved to another state about 4 hours away.
Thanks for the comments so far. Some people in the family thought he should be dating, i thought of finding him a shidduch, a female version of this. But others think it’s not a good idea.
THe problem is me, i feel i failed him completely. WHy do I feel this way when the 3 other children are all very frum and give us so much Nachas? It just does. It seems i cannot do anything but sit and wait.August 28, 2018 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1582488
I have been involved in going to Shiurim for many years and have been a Baal Koreh over 10 years sometimes i walk one hour each way.I visited EY once a year before I had kids there. He saw a deep passion for Yiddishkeit from me. Listened to Jewish music in the house, many books, seforim. I think he got into this from one friend orginially, but ultimately he lacked the passion imo. I did not see this coming, He wanted a second year in EY and he got it, before that he would learn with his favorite High school Rebbe. I think maybe he wants to change something in himself?August 28, 2018 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1582494🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
anonymous jew – what you say makes sense and I would certainly have thought the same thing but I grew up with people who were generally happy with where they were at. The one’s who were raised in weak Torah homes became weaker and the others grew, but I was not exposed to the animosity or aggression towards frumkeit that is out there. When I read some old threads here years ago I was bombarded with questions I never would have thought of and if I was in my 20’s I may have been much more intrigued. Before I knew how much garbage was out there on the net I would go to different blogs mentioned and read stuff so jolting, and written by people who are convinced they have found truth by leaving r”l. It took me only a couple days to swear off all the surfing and reading and I had to consciously tell myself that that is not the place to find answers. I had no doubts, was not discontent with the Torah I have been taught and live, but I was still sucked in by the seemingly intellectual front they present. I had to use my strength to put up that wall, and I believe someone who isn’t on guard can be derailed, like missionaries do, even without having doubts.
Even among the posters here there is ittle digs toward chumros, hashkafos, negativity toward being stringent or sheltered. It definitely takes it’s toll.August 29, 2018 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1582624JNNParticipant
Sometimes the answer is a different derech. I once watched a conversation between a guy who grew up yekke and hated it and found himself in Breslov and a guy who was raised yeshivish and was saved by becoming yekke. It was fascinating.
We tend to pump more of the same on OTD kids.
Two good places to look are Samson Raphael Hirsch and Chabad, both kiruv experts who make the religion pleasant.August 29, 2018 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1582675
Even among the posters here there is ittle digs toward chumros,
I cant speak for everyone, but I think many peoples’s negatively towards chumros is not the chumra, but rather the person keeping the chumra, many times they use it as some sort of holier than thou weapon.
There is a difference between quiletly going to the store and only buying chalav yisroel products, that basically only your family knows about and it, Telling the whole world what a Helig yid you are because Chalav Stam never touched your lipsAugust 29, 2018 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1582717
There is a difference between quiletly going to the store and only buying chalav yisroel products, that basically only your family knows about and it, Telling the whole world what a Helig yid you are because Chalav Stam never touched your lips
With exception of Joseph on the CR, I have almost never encountered such a thing.
The closest I’ve seen to that is in kids, particularly those who recently took on chumros their parents didn’t. They usually get over that within a couple of years.August 29, 2018 9:38 am at 9:38 am #1582724
Don’t forget the people quietly going to the store and only buying only non gebrokts products, yet who somehow get irrationally accused of raising everyone’s cost…August 29, 2018 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1582728
But really every child is an individual
That is the bottom line..August 29, 2018 10:22 am at 10:22 am #1582753JosephParticipant
Joseph never expressed that about Cholov Yisroel.August 29, 2018 10:22 am at 10:22 am #1582733
I have seen people post on their door in a big sign how they lived in a “Cell Phone and Sushi Free House”
If that is not trying to prove how Helig you are to the rest of the world, I dont know what is, If you dont want a cell phone and Sushi in your house, that is perfectly OK, but once you broadcast it to the whole world in big letters you changed the whole reason
And I unfortunatly I see this kind of activity all the time, People only buying from THAT hashghca or only davening at THAT shul etcAugust 29, 2018 10:30 am at 10:30 am #1582831
It’s your assumption that they’re trying to broadcast their heilgkeit. Why aren’t you dan l’kaf z’chus that they’re trying to be mechazek their kids (or themselves) in trying to uphold higher standards against the tide?
The fact that people only want to daven in “THAT” shul is very likely because they daven better, there’s less talking, or a better environment. The fact that they only use “THAT” hashgocha is likely because they have higher standards.
I’m sorry if you’re encountering people who are being baalei gsavah about their standards of frumkeit, but it’s so unfair to generalize.August 29, 2018 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1582849
If you want to be mechazek your kids, put the sign on the INSIDE of the door so the whole family sees it, A sign OUTSIDE the door is a broadcast to the whole world, you can uphold higher standards without telling anyone who didnt even ask, and if you only eat THAT Hashghca, you dont need to tell someone who eats from a difference hashcha that most eat from (I am talking about generally accepted hashghcas, not ones most dont hold from) why you dont eat from THAT hashghcaAugust 29, 2018 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1583132
“I have seen people post on their door in a big sign how they lived in a “Cell Phone and Sushi Free House””
How many “people” have you seen do this? Why can’t you just think, “well, that’s an odd thing to put on your door”, rather than “wow, frum Jews in general have a problem”?
“If that is not trying to prove how Helig you are to the rest of the world, I dont know what is,”
I don’t think you can judge with surety another’s inner motivations. What you think is clearly evident may not be so. Perhaps as much as you feel that “they” are lording their chumra-fueled piety in your face, maybe “they” feel that their family practices are insulted and ridiculed, and are making a defiant statement. Or maybe they’re just a little odd. Or they never left the high school identity-on-the-sleeve mentality. Or they think it’s funny.
“And I unfortunatly I see this kind of activity all the time, People only buying from THAT hashghca or only davening at THAT shul etc”
Wait, I thought you said your problem was with people broadcasting those things, not doing them at all.August 29, 2018 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1583134
“you dont need to tell someone who eats from a difference hashcha that most eat from (I am talking about generally accepted hashghcas, not ones most dont hold from) why you dont eat from THAT hashghca”
What if they want to eat by you?August 29, 2018 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1583155
“AND I UNFORTUNATLY I SEE THIS KIND OF ACTIVITY ALL THE TIME, PEOPLE ONLY BUYING FROM THAT HASHGHCA OR ONLY DAVENING AT THAT SHUL ETC”
Wait, I thought you said your problem was with people broadcasting those things, not doing them at all.
Maybe it was lost in a post, but the emplasis was they spoke those words, not just did them quiety. If someone goes to a certain shul and doesnt really say why , its not the same as broadcasting why they go to THAT shul and dont go to THAT other shul.
My point is , if you do a chumra , do it quietlyAugust 29, 2018 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1583194
“Maybe it was lost in a post, but the emplasis was they spoke those words, not just did them quiety.”
You wrote, “kind of activity”, which suggests the acts themselves, not the words advertising them, but fine.
“If someone goes to a certain shul and doesnt really say why , its not the same as broadcasting why they go to THAT shul and dont go to THAT other shul.”
I agree with you 100% on the why I don’t go to THAT shul part (though maybe I shouldn’t say that, because I could be advertising my piety in lashon hara matters), but I don’t see anything wrong with articulating why you go to a particular shul. “I appreciate the serious davening there”, “I feel like I fit in hashkafically with the rav and kehilla there”, etc. Don’t see how that’s bragging.
“My point is , if you do a chumra , do it quietly”
I’ll repeat my question from above. What if I want to eat by you?August 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583264
The issue was not chumros. We never had money for that haha. We had a leibedig house. it’s not only the not keeping Shabbos that bothers me but I was expecting him to be married by this age. It’s not that I want more grandchildren but I genuinely believe in this way of life, rather than him rooming with his work manager whose wife lives in another city etc. It is for his losses, what he is giving up both Ruchniyus and Gashmius that hurts me.
I also on some level feel as I failed despite what I hear that it happens alot. I guess no one expects this. I find it hard to joke about, is it supposed to be joked about ? does that make it sort of not to take it too hard I guess.August 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583254Midwest2Participant
ZD – Sushi free? That’s a new one on me. What could be wrong with sushi? I don’t eat it because I don’t like it, but what shaiches is there to how frum someone is?August 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583225
Maybe it got lost in the post, but THAT was a subsitite for a negative reason not to go to a shul or not to eat from a hashghafa.
As far as eating in my house, the people whom I know are frummer, arent eating in my house anyway,
if you want to eat, Ill tell you what store I am going to and you can like it or lump it. I am not going to Borough park to some chassidish shechtah place when there is a pefectly fine store right near my house (Actually more than 1 perfectly fine store, like 5 or 6 of them). I live in a very frum neighborhoodAugust 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583295big dealParticipant
Rafi: I’m no expert on these matters. I just chimed in to say I’m sorry you’re going through such a trying time. Hashem should give you all strength and courage to face this monster with simcha and the ability to do the right thing. May you emerge stronger and better with your son a chozer very soon. Hatzlacha.August 30, 2018 8:37 am at 8:37 am #1583344
I remember another father whose child was going through this and he took it very hard. His Rav told him that every child has his path in this world – some need to go through certain phases as part of their journey. Your job and responsibility is not to ensure how your child turns out – that’s not in your hands. Your job is to do the best you can with the chinuch of your child – and if you have done that then you should not feel to blame over how the child turned out.August 30, 2018 8:43 am at 8:43 am #1583341
There is a feeling among some that anything from outside “frumkite” will damage the yiddishe neshama. Most people stop at language or dress thats which Lvush or Yiddish is so important to them. However some people take it to another level and add the chumra of not eating “Goyishe Foods” and Goysishe foods doesnt mean treif, it means foods that come from another source beside the Alte Heim. They can be made perfectly kosher, they are just not from the Alte Heim.
Sushi has become the symbol of these foods, Its very popular in the jewish community and some have this idea that if you eat sushi it will lead to going OTD because you have now had a “ta’am” for the goyish world,August 30, 2018 8:46 am at 8:46 am #1583347
” It is for his losses, what he is giving up both Ruchniyus and Gashmius that hurts me.”
Of course. Torah and mitzvos gives us the best life possible. We are not missing out, they are. The lack of direction and morals in the world, sheva mitzvos bnei noach etc in the world today is depressing thousands of secular youth and destroying countless lives rachmana litzlan.
A male relative of mine, who married at 21, went jogging once with another young not yet frum young man, when he was helping out the shluchim on the campus. My relative was engaged at that point.
His jogging partner confided to him that “You’ll probably never understand me, but I don’t plan on getting married.”
My relative asked why.
The other young man responded that there is no trust and faithfulness nowadays, and young married women will commonly cheat with other men. So why should he commit to her, and all the finances etc that he would lose in event of divorce?
My relative responded that he completely understand and if that was the world he lived in, he wouldn’t get married either.
I also have a close relative who went off. In his case he really wants to come back he has just lost his self control. He is planning on saving up money to go to a BT Yeshiva program and marry a graduate of the girls program. He went off at 16 and is now 23.
It can take time. It can be a process. But this relative is happy to come home for Shabbos, and keep whatever family rules he needs to. His life plan is to marry that graduate at 25
things have taken him awhile as his brain was hijacked by drugs and the medication needed to avoid psychosis as a result. But it looks like he’ll head in the right direction iyh.there’s definitely hope. Keep the doors open and your son will eventually come back iyh. We have the richest life there is.August 30, 2018 8:46 am at 8:46 am #1583397DaMosheParticipant
Rafi, you say that your son saw a passion for Yidishkeit from you, because you’ve been a baal koreh for over 10 years, sometimes walking an hour each way for it.
But what about spending time with your son? When you walked an hour, did you take him with you? If you did, how did he feel about the long walk? Did he resent it? If you didn’t take him, did he go to shul at all? Did he have someone to sit next to, who could guide him with the davening and leining?
It’s important for us to remember that our children should be our #1 priority. We often need to give up things which are important to us in order to give to our children.
The #1 thing to do now, as was pointed out earlier, is to show love to your son. Try to spend time with him. Ask him what he’d like, and do it together. It may be as simple as taking a baseball and having a catch. But building that relationship up can’t hurt.August 30, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1583436
I think you might need to have a heart to heart talk with your son without Judgements about his living arrangements unfortunalty R’L even people from hemish homes might have such issuesAugust 30, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1583512
“Maybe it got lost in the post, but THAT was a subsitite for a negative reason not to go to a shul or not to eat from a hashghafa.”
Not only did I understand that, I also agreed with you. Maybe that got lost in my post 🙂 The only place I differed is that I personally think it’s fine to express the opposite – stating why you go to a certain shul, or keep certain food-based minhagim/chumras, etc. Someone who is secure in the correctness of his own practices shouldn’t have trouble encountering different opinions, even if they are more stringent. I do draw a line at bashing other Jews and their (halachically valid) practices.
“if you want to eat, Ill tell you what store I am going to and you can like it or lump it.”
That’s fine. There are many hosts, however, who do choose to accommodate their guests for kashrus, allergy, or preference concerns as much as possible. People can have peanut allergies, eat gluten free, eat yoshon, cholov Yisroel, pas Yisroel, or avoid artificial colors/flavors, sulfites, MSG, trans-fats, etc. Or maybe herring makes them nauseous 🙂August 30, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1583513
In case you missed my question from above: On how many houses have you seen this anti-sushi sign posted?
Thanks!August 30, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1583555
The sushi one Ive seen more in Israel than the US, However in the US I do see the anti-cell phone one even on bumper stickers on cars
When I first saw the Sushi one I was taken a little aback from shockAugust 30, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1583558
by your ID you live in MD, its very possible the frum jews in NY have very different attitudes than frum jews Out of town. I do think there is more commuity and less division out of town.
I dont think for example you have in MD the plague of restaurants with 3 Hashghcas (None of the are anything less than Hemish)August 30, 2018 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1583610just a personParticipant
u say he didn’t do well in yeshiva. probably he has self esteem issues with it and feels he has no place in a frum world. Both lead to depression. feelinigs of rejection. Focus on making him feel welcome.August 30, 2018 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1583625MenoParticipant
The sushi one Ive seen more in Israel than the US
So you’ve seen it at least 3 times?August 30, 2018 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1583633
When I first saw the Sushi one I was taken a little aback from shock
On how many US homes have you seen it, and on how many Israeli homes??August 30, 2018 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1583662
“The sushi one Ive seen more in Israel than the US”
Lol, this is a politician’s non-answer answer. The reason I’m pursuing this question is that I’m wondering where we draw the line between seeing something extreme and thinking “hmm, that individual is a bit odd”, and thinking, “wow, that’s a reflection of some systematic problem in the frum community.”August 30, 2018 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1583822
The reason I’m pursuing this question is that I’m wondering where we draw the line between seeing something extreme and thinking “hmm, that individual is a bit odd”, and thinking, “wow, that’s a reflection of some systematic problem in the frum community.”
To me its just a symptom of many of people trying to out frum each other, and there are many other examples, however the Sushi one is sort of Politcal free and somewhat funny, however other ones are much more sinister , Just look at the YWN news and almost every day now we see articles about kids being kicked out or not let into schools and usually the reason is just nareshkeitAugust 30, 2018 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1583893
Ok, so how many?August 30, 2018 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1584023
The outfrum is possible. but in what context. you can never win. If you go to 2 Shiurim a week, they ask you to go to a third, a fourth. Or some people they are always in the Beis Medrash. U cannot measure what you did against what happened bec in my case 3 are actually more frum then they were brought up. We went for example to the beach as a family, a mixed beach. is that bad? but they dont go to such a beach.
I think it’s impossible to predict this its all causation does not = whatever that phrase is. My question is simply that I want he should marry someone Jewish so that some day he might return. It is very hard to just do nothing. I have to make an big effort. If he’s home on Shabbis when it’s Mincha, do I ask him if he wants to join me? He is coming for RH and will be in the house the whole time. Some of his peers dont do that much.August 30, 2018 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1584045
Inviting him to your house for RH is somethingSeptember 2, 2018 7:52 am at 7:52 am #1584338JNNParticipant
What are his views on this. You haven’t said. What is his issue with Torah life? Is it a matter of belief? Boredom? Frustration? You have to start with his state of mind.
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