May 25, 2011 2:56 am at 2:56 am #597082
I once heard from a parent of a potential OTD child, who went to a well known Rov, and told the Rov that the child enjoys secular music. The Rov answered- it’s your achrayus and tafkid to pretend you enjoy it with the child, and listen with the child and go along with it, to form a bond.
Does this backfire, by the child thinking that the parent isnt genuine, and is a faker, or does the child appreciate the parents acceptance and “picking the battles” (Treif -no, secular music- yes).May 25, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #770880
the parents need to have a bond with the child for him/her to take the parents seriously and want/not be opposed to spending time with them. Then real issues can eventually be discussed, once there has been a relationship formed.May 25, 2011 3:40 am at 3:40 am #770881
Assuming there’s nothing intrinsically assur about it (which you did stipulate), I think the latter. I think it would be better to form a bond through something more neutral, though, if possible (e.g. if the child enjoys chess).May 25, 2011 4:01 am at 4:01 am #770882
DY, someone very reliable told me that after WW2 a well known frum woman went to churches that were taking care of Jewish children, to scout the places out and reclaim Jewish children. She got a heter to dress very not frum, so no one would ever suspect her. Today she is a well known Rebbitzen. Sometimes (to save Yiddishe Neshamos) people are given Heterim for things that are Assur. They dont decide on their own. Ais Laasos LaHashem Heferu Sorosecha.May 25, 2011 5:02 am at 5:02 am #770883
It is possible, however, that that case was an exception because christianity is largely considered avodah zara, and therefore would be yehareg v’al yavor, as opposed to “regular” issurim like violating shabbos kashrus or not wearing a black hat (sorry I had to).May 25, 2011 9:00 am at 9:00 am #770884
When I was growing up, I went through a stage of listening to secular music. What made an everlasting impression on me was when I once had the music on loud, and my mother walked into the room and told me that at least if I listen, I should not be proud of it, and should keep the volume down. She did not tell me to shut it, but she made it clear that she expected better of me. I shut it on my own. As Daas mentioned one is probably better off finding common ground in a healthier area. The message should be that while you do not necessarily condone or enjoy their actions you still love the person.May 25, 2011 11:17 am at 11:17 am #770885
I can’t speak to the issue of the OTD child, but I am a BT with a secular family that I get along very well with. I think there are two major things to keep in mind:
1) Boundaries… You need to establish that My life is lived this way your life is lived that way. As long as there are clear boundaries it makes life easier. Of course this is easier if you are not living in the same house.
2) Communications, keep them clear and honest. In general people who go OTD do so for reasons, don’t just dismiss them but listen, really listen to your child.
I realize that this might not be popular adviceMay 25, 2011 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #770886
Sometimes (to save Yiddishe Neshamos) people are given Heterim for things that are Assur.
On the other thread, you seemed to show that you feel that a major factor in OTD is hypocrisy. Joining your child in doing something assur in order to get him or her to stop doing d’varim assurim would therefore not be an effective tool.May 25, 2011 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #770887
Make sure that you are real. That is part of the Tafkid, not to fake it, but to actually enjoy doing what your child likes doing.May 25, 2011 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #770888
ZachKessin: Well put.
I’d think, though, that establishing boundaries are important when dealing with secular family. But when it’s a ‘not quite’ OTD, it may push him further away.May 25, 2011 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #770889
You have to pick your battles. Going to war over small issues especially when kids are sitting on the fence is like putting your foot on the middle of their back and shoving them in the wrong direction.
It is important to respect your child and love him/her no matter what. Love the child no matter what you feel about what they are doing. Love the child unconditionally. That is the point. If the child is listening to secular music, ask them which group they are listening to. Ask them to turn the volume down so you can hear it too. Ask them what they like about it and sit down and listen. Is it the melody or the words. Ask them what is it about the melody or the words they find enjoyable or they are connecting too. Discuss it with them.
It is better to be “in it” and be a part of what is going on than have them be in a bubble with you on the outside. If you are involved they might open up or you might have a clue as to what is going on and what is troubling them. If you fight them on it, you become the enemy, the one who refuses to understand and then you shut the door on communication with them.May 25, 2011 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #770890
aries, you hit the nail on the head.May 25, 2011 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #770891
On the other thread, you seemed to show that you feel that a major factor in OTD is hypocrisy. Joining your child in doing something assur in order to get him or her to stop doing d’varim assurim would therefore not be an effective tool.
You’re right! Its complicated. Thats why it’s best to have a really understanding Gadol to advise them. Firstly, a Gadol has seen and heard it all, and secondly, if the outcome isnt exactly as desired, no one beats themselves up.May 25, 2011 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #770892
i think the rov’s advise was pretty good….I know I’m going to get flak for this, but secular music isn’t as bad as eating treif and breaking shabbos. The parents should be happy about that; it could be much worse…May 25, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #770893
And here lies the major problem, most of what is being labled as assur is not so clear cut so. If most poskim say assur (and it has to be from a halacha standpoint,not hashkafa)(e.g. Reb Moshe assured the eruv in brooklyn halachikly, there were chassidhe rebbe’s that assur an eruv hashkafakly) it is still most not all, therefore there is an opinion allowing it. Why would we then force a kid to stop and further antagonize them. If all a kid hears is assur, assur assur then where is the beauty in yidishkeit.May 25, 2011 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #770894
Aries has a fine take on it. Judging by the words in the original post by Ofcourse, it seems that the parent currently does not have a great bond with the child. That being the case, doing anything to strengthen that bond would be beneficial. Once a bond a forged, then the parent can decide where to make boundaries and where not.
Also, it depends on what type of secular music the child is listening to. If it contains lyrics that promotes immorality, drugs, or anything potentially harmful, having a parent listen to it with the child may not be the best way to create a bond. There can, and will, be other ways to create it. But if the lyrics are fine, or any sort of instrumental music, a parent can do well to join the child by listening and having an interest in it, even temporarily, to create that bond.May 25, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #770895
rescue37: you can’t pick and choose kulas. if the family mesora and rov holds something is assur, a kid can’t still do it cause another rov holds its not assur.May 25, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #770896
I know of a mother who used to go with her son to movies. She said ” if he’s already going i may as well go along to make sure he’s ok” Not those words exactly, but, something to that effectMay 25, 2011 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #770897
What is a “potential OTD child”? You mean he (or she) is not really OTD but the parent is concerned that he or she might be in the future? Is this a case of counting chickens before they’re hatched?
Good communications between parent and child are just part of good parenting. You don’t have to wait until you think there’s a problem before you pay attention to your kids. Openness and communication are good parenting traits even if the bachurel is the local ilui, come to think of it, that’s when you need good parenting skills most.
As far as “potential OTD” goes, General Patton said it. “Do not take council of your fears.”May 25, 2011 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #770898
and general omar bradley said “patton is an idiot”May 25, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #770899
Let’s not forget whats OTD for some, isn’t for others…I.E. secular music and movies aren’t viewd OTD in some communities…don’t attack I’m just saying….May 25, 2011 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #770900
Thats why it’s best to have a really understanding Gadol to advise them.
I agree, of course. Since each case is unique, it’s hard to have a discussion about specifics here in the CR. In each case, the affect on the rest of the family also must be considered.
And here lies the major problem, most of what is being labled as assur is not so clear cut so.
You addressed your post to me, so I assume you think I disagree with your point. In a general sense, I don’t disagree, although we may disagree about specific application.
rescue37: you can’t pick and choose kulas. if the family mesora and rov holds something is assur, a kid can’t still do it cause another rov holds its not assur.
That same rov may take a more lenient position for a particular situation (sha’as had’chak).May 25, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #770901
1day, I know of a mother who used to go with her son to movies. She said ” if he’s already going i may as well go along to make sure he’s ok” Not those words exactly, but, something to that effect
Interesting that the boy wanted his mother along. Good sign!May 25, 2011 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #770902
Listening to the lyrics of the music the child is listening to can clue you in to trouble before it starts. If kids are listening to music about drugs you had better beware and start to discuss drugs with them. If they are listening to music about suicide you had better pick up on that and look for signs of depression in your child. Sometimes what they are listening to is indicative of their mood and underlying issues.May 25, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #770903
As a parent, you should be taking an interest in what your children are doing, regardless of whether or not you like it. My mother does not enjoy baseball in any particular way, but always took us to games growing up because WE enjoyed it. Its just a part of good parenting to take an interest in your children’s interests.
Now, of course, when it comes to halacha, things are a bit different. But if their Rav allows them to listen with their children (specifically in this case for this family), then they absolutely should.
Know your children. Forget about on the derech or off the derech, its important to create a good bond with them for healthy growth into adulthood.May 25, 2011 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #770904
aries hit the nail on the head. if you’re a parent please read my post, im sorry its long-ish
im a young woman in my twenties now, and i’m B’H solidly frum, etc…when i was a teenager i went through a long phase of dressing not so tznius, wanting to be cool, and gobbling up secular music.
i pretty much gave my parents a lot of grief…and i credit my father 100% for why im still frum today. sadly, if he would have reacted like my mother, i for sure would have rebelled even more.
here’s the key: my mother reacted by telling me how “its not good, why are you listening to such garbage, you’re a bas yisrael, this isnt befitting for someone with such a beautiful neshama, the people whos sing this are lowlives, turn it off, its pure shmutz, etc.” all of what she said was 100% true, but did not connect with me whatsoever. i did not want to hear that, i just wanted to listen to good music.
my father however…oh what a smart man. he emphathized with me over it, and tried connecting as much as he could, and when he did have to draw the line, did it very very nicely. examples “wow, what is this music, i heard it from downstairs, what a catchy beat, terrific rhythm…ugh, but their message is ridiculous. shame we dont have such nice music with a normal message at least…oh well, enjoy” or “sweetie, try keeping it a little lower, i dont want the kids hearing this, because once they really hear it they’ll be hooked cuz its such great music…i just would rather them not know of it.” or “hey! i remember this song from when i was a kid! oh boy, now i wont get it out of my head for a week…i used to sing it all day. so much for me not listening to secular music, now i’ll be singing it for the next week!” when we’d be in a store and a song went on he’d say”i recognize this. werent you listening to it the other day?” instead of ignoring it completely or making a fuss.
basically, what my father did was identified with me and agreed that yes, the music was awesome, yes, when he heard it he couldnt help but listen. he acknowledged that i was normal for liking it, and that he too used to love listening. but that its not really ideal, and its something to work on.
you have no idea how smart that was. i felt like i could trust him because he understood me, and i opened up to him a lot.
by doing this, he also made his mussar, when he had to give it, MUCH stronger and more listened too. because he didnt flip when he heard me listening to most music, there were a few times when he heard me listening to songs that were, lets just say, really not so nice. then came “kid, throw this cd in the garbage and put on whatever you were listening to before, this is really not nice, ur probably not even allowed to listen to it halachicaly. they would never have been able to produce a song like this when i was your age, things have really changed.”
please, parents, i know it’s a lot more natural to take my mother’s approach. i see way too many ppl do it. but believe me, its not worth it. if i hadnt had my father counteracting her (TRUE!) words, i would have gone far, far off. B”H, because my father was chilled and tried connecting, i got a lot of things in a normal perspective, grew up,stayed frum and now am trying to keep my husband in kollel, while not listening to secular music.May 25, 2011 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #770905
Smile E. FaceMember
I don’t want to offend anyone, or interupt, but teh op said taht a rov was asked. If that is what the rov paskened, then what’s the question? It depends on the child and a shailah should be asked. Zehu. :0) sorry for talking out of place… :0)May 25, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #770906
Aries- Agreed. I would even say that the content of the lyrics almost ALWAYS will be indicative of their mood, thoughts, and issues. One will then have an easier time finding the source of the problems the child may be dealing with. I wouldn’t however find it so beneficial to actually forge a bond using such material. There should be other, healthier ways to create that connection.May 26, 2011 10:29 am at 10:29 am #770907
Hey Mod, Bradley never said that and Patton was, most assuredly, not an idiot. Clearly, when dealing with danger or difficulty, Patton was the foremost authority. P.R., on the other hand, was not his forte.May 26, 2011 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #770908
Smile E. Face
We’re not discussing whether or not the person in the story should have listened to their rov, we’re discussing the overall issue. Not everyone has the same rov, and, more importantly, not every situation is the same.
If someone reading this thread who has such an issue can be made to consider a factor which otherwise would not have come to his/her attention, it can be included in the discussion with his/her rov.
BTW, no need to apologize, your point was a good one (even if I don’t agree).May 26, 2011 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #770909
Belev Echad: that’s a fascinating story & very important point.
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