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So I was thinking this morning that in some ways we may be just as bad as the dor hamabul. They were committing toeiva and many states are legalizing toeiva marriage. Their fate was sealed because of petty theft – wouldn’t our copying music constitute petty theft as well? Baruch Hashem we have many more tzaddikim than one Noach, but we also have much more Torah easily accessible than he did…
Any thoughts?
By the dor hamabul they stole pachus mishaveh prutah. It is technically worthless. Nevertheless non Jews are chayyiv on that as well.
If you steal someone’s music cd movie or computer program game… that is real gezel. A cd costs $19 not 2 cents or whatever the real value of a half prutah is today. Its not petty. Illegal downloading steals Billions of dollars out of people’s pockets. (Not to say that Hollywood doesn’t deserve it as well as the musicians who create filthy music) however take note it’s far from petty money.
S’dom had the same issues…
Imma613 – I think this country is worse than the Dor Hamabul. You can’t say the whole Dor because countries like Iran – Toeiva is still illegal. And why is it worse? Because even though in the Dor Hamabul they wrote marriage contracts on Toeiva and they do that here too -it doesn’t say anywhere that this was forced on the public. In this democratic? country the public voted against marriage (California), but the Gov. through it’s Judicial branch is now forcing them to have Toeiva marriage.
I hold anybody who votes for a politician who is pro-Toeiva is Oiver a very big Issur!
If I don’t see a rainbow, I assume we’re not as bad.
As long as the Jewish community doesnt legalize or condone such marriages you shouldnt worry.
Althought with regard to the theft, some say the dor hamabul stole less than a pruta so they couldnt be held accountable in beis din. Wonder if copying music would be similar….
i have little doubt that this dor is by far the worst when it comes to things that are sheketz in the eyes of hashem and that we have long passed the dor hamabul and sodon and ammora in that regard. i also believe we have the most and the greatest torah learning and observancy since the beginning of time, both in terms of sheer number and in terms of quality. we are the most polarized dor since the beginning of time.
The main reason for the mabul was that there was no shalom
Health, if a toeiva marriage contract was enforceable in the Dor HaMabul, then it is no better or no worse than legal toeiva marriage today.
P.S. Saying that today’s generation isn’t worse than the Dor HaMabul is certainly “damning with faint praise”.
RK -“Health, if a toeiva marriage contract was enforceable in the Dor HaMabul, then it is no better or no worse than legal toeiva marriage today.”
In this regard, the US and the Dor Hamabul are the same. But my point was -that it was the will of the Dor Hamabul to have these marriages -it wasn’t forced down their throat, like we have here in the good ‘ole USA! This makes our country worse than the Dor Hamabul!
mommamia22 -“If I don’t see a rainbow, I assume we’re not as bad.”
What -you have never seen a rainbow here in the US? I’ve seen many.
yungerman1 -“As long as the Jewish community doesnt legalize or condone such marriages you shouldnt worry.”
Wrong. First of all, there are Jews who do condone these things, but they call themselves Reform and the like.
Second of all, I posted here many times, that Chazal say once they write Kesubos on this (marriage contracts) that this (automatically?) brings about destruction. I live in this world and I shouldn’t be concerned about its’ destruction?
coffee addict -“The main reason for the mabul was that there was no shalom”
Prove it. Chazal never gave a main reason. They gave different reasons.
Anyone who thinks that our generation is the worst yet in terms of zima has very little sense or knowledge of history.
Anyone who thinks that the problems of the dor hamabul can be summed up by saying “toeiva” and “gezeilah,” or that the problems of Sodom were similar to those of the dor hamabul has an overly simplistic appreciation for Torah.
Anyone who thinks that the state of “our generation” can be extrapolated from what one sees in their own city, on the internet headlines, and by focusing on the worst people/things among us has a very simplistic awareness of the world.
It’s true. I have seen rainbows on occasion, but not for a long time, b’h.
Honestly, it was a silly answer on my part, not meant to be proof of anything, just a passing thought.
Why are you bringing a kitrug on us Yidden? Every individual has to work on this they feel they need improvement on.
Health,
Doesn’t the gemara say that the reason the dor haflaga was scattered while the dor hamabul was killed was because the dor haflaga had shalom?
RSRH -“Anyone who thinks that our generation is the worst yet in terms of zima has very little sense or knowledge of history.”
This is exactly what I think. Do you have any Proof that I’m wrong? And I know history. Are you living on some Island (Not NY)or are you just in denial?
coffee addict -“Health,
Doesn’t the gemara say that the reason the dor haflaga was scattered while the dor hamabul was killed was because the dor haflaga had shalom?”
So what? This just means why they got one punishment over another. It isn’t one of the reasons why they were punished in the first place!
If I don’t see a rainbow, I assume we’re not as bad.
When I went to Niagara Falls, I saw a rainbow every day. I suppose that’s simply because I am terribly wicked and when I went to Niagara Falls, I guess I became so wicked that God displayed a rainbow in the falls every day I was there.
The Wolf
I don’t know, I personally think it’s hard to say whether we’re the worst because we’ve got a skewed perspective, having (naturally) only lived in this generation. I can only say that it’s probably true due to yeridas hadoros and our being one generation further from Har Sinai.
Well informed: The amount of the gezel may be higher, but that does not necessarily make the maase gezel gamur. First of all it is not being motzi mamon from anyone. It is only minui revach. And second, There is no maase gezeila, as in vayigzol es hechanis miyad hamitzri.
NOT CHAS VESHALOM saying that its muttar. The poskim have already ruled, and I do not consider myself a mechutzef enough to argue. But you said that what our people do is worse. I say that is debatable.
i hate this dor. i hate this dor. this is the worst dor i ever lived in. pttht. i spit on this dor. gross. worstest most disgusting dor ever. pththt.
i hate this dor. i hate this dor. this is the worst dor i ever lived in. pttht. i spit on this dor. gross. worstest most disgusting dor ever. pththt.
It’s true that this is the worst generation, but that’s only because I’m in it.
The Wolf
It’s true that this is the worst generation, but that’s only because I’m in it.
The Wolf
I was just about to write the same.
I was just about to write the same.
Ah, someone else who knows what a rotten, pathetic excuse for a human being I am.
The Wolf
Wolf – If you want Zecusim because you are so bad -marry your daughter to a learning guy and give him all your money. 🙂
Wolf – If you want Zecusim because you are so bad -marry your daughter to a learning guy and give him all your money. 🙂
My daughter will marry whom she wants to marry, not whom I pick for her. And I have no money to give away anyway.
The Wolf
Wolf – “My daughter will marry whom she wants to marry, not whom I pick for her.”
A child is Mechuyav to Mezakeh the parents -that’s why they say Kaddish. Tell her to marry a learning guy for you.
“And I have no money to give away anyway.”
Go get a second job!
A child is Mechuyav to Mezakeh the parents -that’s why they say Kaddish. Tell her to marry a learning guy for you.
You don’t get it, do you?
I would never presume to dictate to anyone — my child or otherwise, whom to marry. So, I will not be doing so. If she marries someone who learns, wonderful. If not, that’s also wonderful.
And if the fact that I won’t dictate my daughter’s choice of spouse makes me a rotten, horrible Jew, then so be it.
The Wolf
Ah, someone else who knows what a rotten, pathetic excuse for a human being I am.
The Wolf
You seem to have misunderstood me, I was writing the same regarding myself. However if you feel the need to act like i do, then your more than welcome to.
You seem to have misunderstood me,
My apologies on the misunderstanding.
The Wolf
Wolf -“And if the fact that I won’t dictate my daughter’s choice of spouse makes me a rotten, horrible Jew, then so be it.”
It doesn’t make you a horrible Jew if you don’t, but you lose that Zecus. Acc. to you – you are going to be in hot water in the next world -so I gave you an idea how to lessen the pain.
And there is no reason not to dictate, if anything since you are trying to be as bad as possible, dictating things against people’s will -will you help you go in that direction.
Wolf
Are you a bt?
Wolf
Are you a bt?
Yes and no.
Became frum when I was ten. So, not FFB, but not a BT in the classic sense either, in that I did grow up frum. So, I’m neither this nor that — a mongrel, if you will.
Why? What difference does that make?
The Wolf
what point is the op making?
I do not think we are anywhere close to the Dor HaMabul and Sedom, and I amazed that people can be motzi laaz on the entire uma haKedosha of Hashem like this.
Society has degenerated to the point of condoning and legalizing Mishklav Zachar, and this is a serious concern. But it does NOT reflect our values but rather that of a liberal nation that, for all its maalos and being a medina shel chessed to us and others, does not have the Torah as its life-source as we do, and is therefore prone to making grave errors (even lishitasam) such as legalizing mishkav zachar, Hashem Yiracheim.
Regarding gezel, there is a machlokes whether copying CDs/music is or is not gezel, in certain circumstances. Regardless of this machlokes, the chamas of the other doros mentioned was far worse. There, they, in groups, stole a physical object until there was no inventory left, and with that exact intent, and did so as a “naval birshus HaTorah”; meaning: since it was less than a shaveh pruta, that it was lichatchila muttar. Whereas today, someone who has a taava to copy music, AND knows it’s not proper (regardless of whether or not it’s gezeila as there are other issurim to potentially contend with) may not gain additional olam haba for doing so, but I wouldn’t dare compare that to sedom.
Klal Yisrael has much, indeed, to be proud of, B”H, as we wait the geulah sheleimah BB”A.
Good point, crazybrit.
Hakatan -“Society has degenerated to the point of condoning and legalizing Mishklav Zachar, and this is a serious concern. But it does NOT reflect our values but rather that of a liberal nation that, for all its maalos and being a medina shel chessed to us and others, does not have the Torah as its life-source as we do, and is therefore prone to making grave errors (even lishitasam) such as legalizing mishkav zachar, Hashem Yiracheim.”
Any particular reason you decided to defend this generation?
The fact that there are Frum Yidden living in this Dor doesn’t change what is going on in the Dor. Take off your rose colored glasses. With your defense -you could say S’dom wasn’t so bad -“Nebech they didn’t have Torah so made some grave errors”.
The Dor is full of Reshayim and the cancer in the western world that all this Pritzus that only really became openly visible is only in the last 30 -40 years. And it’s getting worse everyday.
E/o has to make a Machoh against this.
The hypocrisy of some is amazing. Some say don’t use the Net because of Pritzus, but will vote for a candidate that’s pro -Toavieah. 40 years ago had they had the Net -Pritzus would Not have been allowed. The problem isn’t the Net -it’s the people running the Western countries who have brought us down to this extremly low level! The solution isn’t stop using the Net -it’s to get rid of these politicians! Did they Assur talking on telephones because there are some whom speak LH on them?
I’m not sure what happened to my other response, so I’ll be brief here: my “defense” of today’s generation has nothing to do with a shot-in-the-dark limud zichus nor can it be compared to Sedom.
Please read the relevant peirushim and midrashim. Sedom was evil, as in E.V.I.L. While it is wrong to condone and legalize this toeiva, this is a far, far different culture than sedom. This country has been very kind to its citizens (and gives citizenship rights to anyone born on its soil). Whereas Sedom savagely and torturously murdered any guests who happened to pass through.
Again, please don’t be so foolish as to blame secular culture’s morass on the very people, Hashem’s am HaNivchar, who do what they can to rise above it, BE”H. And, similarly, it is a chutzpah and a tremendous lack of hakaras HaTov and/or simple surface-thinking for one to write off the USA as another Sedom because of a particular failing when there is so much more good that it does and that which sedom never dreamed of doing.
Health
Don’t blame the politicians. Blame Hollywood and the rest of the entertainment industry and the media. If you are brought up on heavy doses of movies…and corrupt media you will end up having very krum morals.
regarding earlier posts about causes of mabul:
meshech chochmah (parshas b’shalach)suggests that while the individual is mainly punished for bein adam l’makom, communities are punished for bein adam l’chaveiro (see there many sources). Therefore, he says, the arayos of dor mabul, while making them deserving of punishment as individuals, would not have caused global destruction, but as a tzibbur they deserved punishment for gezel, shalom etc.
As far as our generation, I don’t think we need worry about the global effect, because it is clear from all the sources that after Matan Torah, only Jews have a cosmic spiritual effect.
Can someone explain to me why we feel the need to protest laws against mishkav zachar ? It is not the only thing labeled as ervah for bnei noach, and others are quite legal and common, and yet we don’t lobby for legislation for them!
HaKatan -“I’m not sure what happened to my other response, so I’ll be brief here: my “defense” of today’s generation has nothing to do with a shot-in-the-dark limud zichus nor can it be compared to Sedom.”
Of course it can be compared to S’dom. As a matter of fact you agreed in previous posts to this. I just did a search of your past posts. Stop being a hypocrite.
“Please read the relevant peirushim and midrashim. Sedom was evil, as in E.V.I.L. While it is wrong to condone and legalize this toeiva, this is a far, far different culture than sedom. This country has been very kind to its citizens (and gives citizenship rights to anyone born on its soil). Whereas Sedom savagely and torturously murdered any guests who happened to pass through.”
Just because they aren’t exactly the same -in the main problem they are!
“Again, please don’t be so foolish as to blame secular culture’s morass on the very people, Hashem’s am HaNivchar, who do what they can to rise above it, BE”H.”
Who blamed Klal Yisroel for this? Don’t put words in my mouth!
“And, similarly, it is a chutzpah and a tremendous lack of hakaras HaTov and/or simple surface-thinking for one to write off the USA as another Sedom because of a particular failing when there is so much more good that it does and that which sedom never dreamed of doing.”
Sorry, this Avlah isn’t just “a particular failing”, like you say. This causes destruction of the world. It doesn’t matter that they do some good. Their evil outweighs any good.
I even found a MO guy who disagrees with you and agrees with me:
“Feif Un
Proud Modern Orthodox
Remember also, that it says the generation of the mabul was finally punished because they recognized gay marriage. It says it also about Sedom. The Greek empire, the Roman empire – they both also recognized gay marriage, and both are gone now.
It’s clear that, as sammyjoe said, a society only maintains its right to exist if they do not recognize this abomination as legitimate. Let us try and help our medinah shel chesed by fighting against this abomination. The US has been a tremendous help to the Jewish nation, let us help protect the country when we can.
Posted 2 years ago “
WIY -“Health
Don’t blame the politicians. Blame Hollywood and the rest of the entertainment industry and the media. If you are brought up on heavy doses of movies…and corrupt media you will end up having very krum morals.”
You’re not serious are you? Hollywood is just the tool of the Soton. Did the Supreme Court have to say their Pritzus is protected by the Constitution? No. Of course not. Did the politicians have to write laws protecting Pritzus and the public display of it? No, of course not! The blame falls squarely on these politicians shoulders. Call a spade – a spade. They had/have Bechira like anyone else!
Unfortunately we have seen some groups vote for politicians and ignore their views on Pritzus. They were probably blinded by some promise of some kickback/Shoychad – if he/she got their vote!
Personally I’m beginning to think that a big problem with today’s generation of Jews is their ga’avah— they HAVE to think we’re the worst ever.
Only partially tongue in cheek.
lol
Health
Member
I hold anybody who votes for a politician who is pro-Toeiva is Oiver a very big Issur!
Notwithstanding this assertion of Health, even bigger Issur to vote for Obama or any Democrat this November, as this helps Obama’s cause to be even more anti Israel. First assess a candidate’s position vis a vis the B’Nai Yisroel, before worrying about his leaning vis a vis his marital beliefs & passions.
Health, please don’t label me anything, including a hypocrite, as I think you’re being a bit out of line (and wrong, both in the technical definition and in this particular case as well).
Yes, I was and still am very against any government legalizing this toeiva, and even the goyim know it is maaseh sedom. I have not changed that position, CH”V. But that does not make it correct to lump such governments in the same GENERAL and OVERALL category as Sedom. It is also a gross lack of Hakaras HaTov to do so.
Hashem runs the world, and He can be sovel this avla that THE UMOS HaOLAM committed, too, if He wishes. He can also put it into their hearts to realize how stupid and brainless this bill really is when children are considered, as I wrote above. That would solve that.
But we, Klal Yisrael, who dwell on this Earth **AND WHO EVEN VOTED OUT A JEWISH PROPONENT OF THIS TOEIVA (and favored instead his Catholic opponent who was against it)**, as I mentioned, can only do what we can and certainly cannot be blamed for this avla the Umos committed despite the OP’s erroneous suggestion otherwise.
The OP wrote 2 points which I thought were very off and incorrect. I didn’t “put words in your mouth”, but rather explained to you what I was defending. Again:
OP wrote: “we may be just as bad as the dor hamabul”. Again, we are absolutely not in the same league, sport, etc. as the evil barbarians of that wicked dor. We have unbelievable Torah, Avoda and Chesed, which are the three pillars that uphold this world, and it is this incredible Am HaNivchar, as it yearns for the geulah, that does so 24/7/365. We still desperately need the true geulah shileimah, may Hashem redeem us BB”A. But we are not at all what the OP wrote.
She also compared an unknown number of people who allegedly engage in “CD copying” to the wicked Sedom practice of a large group of people intentionally ganging up together and each taking less than a peruta’s worth of merchandise until the physical merchandise was all gone. Again, there is no comparison between CD copying and that evil, not in the act itself, nor the scale on which the respective acts were committed nor on the respective intents. Once again, to take the unknown number of these particular Jews and extrapolate that to comparing our entire People to Sedom is clearly very, very wrong.
Klal Yisrael has suffered so much already, R”L. If anyone feels the need to be mikatreig, cH”V, let them please ask their Rav for answers instead, rather than being mikatreig in a public forum when, at the very least, they could frame their concerns with words like “IT IS bad to do…” rather than “WE ARE bad”, CH”V.
No comparison. Our animals are much better behaived. When’s the last time you saw the cats and dogs …
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