December 16, 2008 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #588886Y.W. EditorKeymaster
Received via email:
As of the last few years, there has been a disturbing trend. Many of our respected shadchanim are reporting that girls and boys only want to live a life of learning. People seem to be putting much emphasis on Yisachar. But, what will happen to our society if such a trend keep growing for the next 20 years? What will happen to our our shuls and yeshivas if both yisacher and zevulin are disproportionate? How will we find funding for our institutions, if there are more learners then workers?
I bring this topic up as a proud citizen of the Orthodox Jewish community. I don’t want to cause controversy, but I am concerned. Our community is currently flourishing. It is beautiful to see families with six or even seven children while walking down the street. But what will we do if we run out of money?December 16, 2008 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #629837
Good for the editor for posting.December 16, 2008 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #629838
This has been discussed ad nausea; their must be at least 5 other threads on this subject.
This is a great exaggeration to put it mildly. See the other threads.December 16, 2008 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #629839
I think we’ve all heard this problem before with shidduchim and working boys looked down upon but it hasn’t been solved yet!December 16, 2008 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #629840
“girls and boys only want to live a life of learning….what will happen to our society?”
other similar problems:
too much emphasis on lashon hara
too many Yiddish children (chas v’ Shalom)
too many books on Tefilah recently
too many inspiring speakers
what will happen to us?
can we put a stop to it?December 16, 2008 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #629841
Its overly simplistic to say that we as a community need a 50/50 split between workers and learners in order to remain solvent.
many investors and workers at Lehman, Bear Stearns etc lost their jobs and savings.
many wealthy individuals and tzedakas who invested in the stock market in general lost millions. With Madoff many lost Billions.
When will we learn that parnassa is min hashamayim?
When we learn that we will never know if the Yissachars are helping the Zevuluns (by causing them to have siyata dishmaya and make more money) more than the Zevuluns are helping the Yissachars (by writing a check to a kollel or supporting their kollel kids)?
Yes, we must do our hishtadlus. Yes, in Europe there never was a kollel system as there is bli ayin horah today. But tremendous people like Rav Ahron Kotler ZTL created this revolution because they saw that this is what Klal Yisroel needed. When our Gedolim say that we have too many Yissachars and not enough Zevuluns then the system will need to be changed. Until then, the more kollel yungerleit there are, the better off we all are. Does that mean noone should go work? Of course not. Each person should get advice from his rebbe/rosh yeshiva on what is right for him.December 16, 2008 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #629842
Thank You Feivel.
Beautiful analogy, as always.December 16, 2008 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #629843ddMember
It is truly scary how many young people are being sent out into the world without the ability to earn a living. While the economy was good, we could afford the luxury, but sadly there will be much suffering as the economy sours.
While parnassa ultimately comes from the RBSO, too many people ignore the need for hishtadlus. Hishtadlus means giving your children a decent (secular) education when they are young, and giving them the means to have a career when they grow up.
Chazal and the gedolim of the past combined learning Torah with earning a living. Virtually the entire Torah is based on the assumption that the norm will be for people working instead of relying on miracles to support them. (For example, all the agricultural mitzvos.)
We certainly need kollels – but they should be for the exceptional student and not for everyone.
The original poster mentioned that girls look for a shidduch with a boy who will learn full time. Well, not all. My frum, ehrlich, baalos middos, baalos chesed daughters are approaching that age. They will each be looking for a boy who is frum, ehrlich, a baal middos, a baal chesed, who will be kovea itim l’torah, but will also fulfill the obligations on the kesuba to support his family to the best of his ability.December 16, 2008 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #629844
The economics angle has not yet been disscussed, which is why the letter is worthwhile.
The issue is not more learners, C’V. May we have such problems in Klal Yisroel!
The problem is becoming similar to that at the time of the second Beis Hamikdosh, i.e. the Pharasees vs. everyone else.
We know where that ended, the destruction of the Beis HaMikdash.
The Chiddush of the letter is that having a job is also a “job” needed in Klal Yisroel. It should not be dismissed as “not being important” or unworthy.
After all, don’t Chazal say “al Shlosha dvorim Haolam omed, Kesef, Mammon & Gelt”? 😉December 16, 2008 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #629845oomisParticipant
By the time our Gedolim recognize the disproportionate rate of Yissacher/Zevulun and understand the ramifications of same, it will probably be too late. And it doesn’t HAVE to be a problem at all…. our Yeshivah boys and girls need to be educated from birth with the idea that a learning boy should also be an earning boy. If they would not be brainwashed into believing that work is a four-letter word, and understand that Hashem always intended for the Jewish people to work for a living AND learn (how many of our mitzvos are work-related, how to treat one’s employees, what to leave in one’s fields for the poor, trumah and maaser – where did these concepts come from, my imagination???), then they would not be so resistant and derisive of the idea that im ein kemach ein Torah. My dad z”l got up early every morning in order to be able to learn before going to work. He learned when he had breaks, he learned after work, and he learned before going to bed.When he had a wife and family, he continued to learn, but ALSO spent quality time with his family every day (something I often see NOT happeneing among some of the yungerleit with whom I am acquainted). Maybe he did not sit in the beis medrash all day, but he made a p’shara between his desire to learn and his need to earn a parnassah to help support his family. His father was a Rov, and taught him that while it is important to learn Torah every day, it is also important to provide for one’s family and be well-educated.December 16, 2008 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #629846yitzy99Member
“parnassa is min hashamayim”
Then why bother to send delegations to collect.
Why make support deals with in-laws?
Why look for a “rich” shidduch?December 16, 2008 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #629847oomisParticipant
“parnassa is min hashamayim”
That may be so, but it does not continue to say that the parnassah will FALL from Shamayim. That phrase means that Hashem decides what we will earn during the year. It does not mean that we have no achrayus to put in our hishtadlus in order to get that parnassah. Der Aibishter vet helfen, doesn’t mean we have no responsibility in the matter.December 16, 2008 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #629848
**************”parnassa is min hashamayim”
Then why bother to send delegations to collect.
Why make support deals with in-laws?
Why look for a “rich” shidduch? **************
read Shar HaBitochin in Chovos Ha Lvovos who explains the concept at length.
“parnassa min hashamayim” is a primary fundamental of Yiddishkeit. it is crucial that you understand itDecember 16, 2008 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #629849
I will ask that a certain person/blogger who only criticizes and does not respond when that is refuted or asked for a reason or proof please not post anything.
You are one of the subjects of my post about guidelines (personal criticism), and are the personification of a Troll.
Note to mod: understood if not posted, but I had to try. It disrupts intelligent conversation.December 16, 2008 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #629850
Parnassa depends on what you put in.December 17, 2008 12:36 am at 12:36 am #629851DocParticipant
re: “I will ask that a certain person/blogger”
That post was uncalled for and counterproductive. And whoever you addressed it to, probably has no idea it is he. Whoever it is, doesn’t think of himself in those terms, even if your description is correct (which is a question.) And everyone else started wondering if you meant him, decided you didn’t, and figured it was whoever’s comments they like least.
And if that poster did know you were addressing him, he would most likely do precisely the opposite of what you request. The only one I can imagine you are talking about is y55.
So what exactly do you think that accomplished?December 17, 2008 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #629852
Same idea as other thread. I will only discuss this with you if you will answer me back afterwards.December 17, 2008 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #629853
Most of my friends, and I included actually want a guy that has a plan, and that will go to college or work after a year or so. I think a lot of girls especially during these financial times wants a guy that has some sort of skill because a lot of parents an in-laws will not be able to support the way they expected.December 18, 2008 12:08 am at 12:08 am #629854
The Kollel population represents a small minority of the overall Frum community. If anything, it is too small.
(Doc, I agree with your point in the message to gavra_at_work)December 18, 2008 12:38 am at 12:38 am #629855Josh31Participant
We got to start with the BMG Coffee Room Chevra. They all need to be advised to get jobs or specific training for jobs. Emptying the BMG Coffee Room will energize the actual learners and spread the expense of Kollels among more earners.
BMG Coffee Room is a metaphor for those who do not have the Sitz Fleish to learn full time, even if they are smart enough to get in the most prestigious Yeshivas.
Next we need more positive attitude towards Limudei Chol. Several advantages will flow. The prestige of Talmidei Chachamim with secular knowledge is greater, just like those who dress properly. Almost every area of Torah knowledge needs some other supporting knowledge. Understanding Gemara Chulin needs knowledge of bovine anatomy.December 18, 2008 12:41 am at 12:41 am #629856
And gavra_at_work, since you are hard at work at knocking off other posters, how do you explain your attack on what Rav Miller zt’l said. He said black and white that having a tv will lead to the loss of olam habo, no ifs ands or buts, or any qualifications. So who are you to say you don’t believe he said that (as multiple people on ywn itself bore witness), as you stated on another thread? Go to your local Torah Tape library to hear it for yourself. Or will you refuse to believe your ears as well? And it doesn’t matter if you had a family member who knew Rav Miller zt’l in Rugby. Even if you yourself knew. He said it openly and unashamedly.
On another pertinent matter, how do you seem to have posting time available 9-5? Does your boss permit personal use? Is he aware? Are you truly so free all day allowing you all this free time? Or are you using personal time on the boss’ cheshbon?December 18, 2008 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #629857
Obviously you are very hurt by what I said. That was not the purpose, and I take it all back.
Yes my boss does not mind, I have mentioned this before. It is a good question.December 18, 2008 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #629858
However, if you would like to have a conversation, please rephrase.December 18, 2008 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #629859jphoneMember
1:**************”parnassa is min hashamayim”
2:**************”Then why bother to send delegations to collect.
Why make support deals with in-laws?
Why look for a “rich” shidduch?” **************
4:*************”Are those proper modes of hishtadlus? If yes, who made such a decision?December 18, 2008 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #629860
when was the last time you walked into BMG during seder? If you do so, you will see that it is a myth that a large percentage of the kollel yungerleit spend their day in the coffee room. You will instead see a small number of people in the coffee room while hundreds and hundreds are shvitzing over their shtenders in many packed botei medrashim. Go see for yourself.December 18, 2008 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #629861Josh31Participant
I never said that a large percentage was in the Coffee Room. However, boys with good minds but not the Sitz Fleish to sit and learn are being advised to “stay in learning” anyways. That was my personal experience 35 years ago, and since them the pressure to “stay in learning” has only increased.December 18, 2008 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #629862
Josh, I hear ya and sorry for assuming you meant something else. There are unfortunately ppl out there who do believe the myth that most kollel yungerleit drink coffee and shmooze all day. I’m glad you’re not one of them.December 18, 2008 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #629863
I hear from my friends that some boys that they go out with admit that they are in BMG for the name, so hopefully they are the few that are in the coffee room and not the majorityDecember 19, 2008 1:30 am at 1:30 am #629864
Too sharp? Perhaps in response to your sharp original post. Rephrase? sure.
You say that YOU think its hearsay because YOU didn’t hear Rav Miller zt’l say it? Do you say that about everything YOU didn’t personally hear? Rav Miller said it, and its on tape. Why do you have trouble accepting what multiple people have heard from Rav Miller?
The other point was simply you seem to have a *lot* of free time at_work, based on your numerous posts, reading time required, and the fact its literally spread out widely across the spectrum from nine am till five pm. You seem to have a lot of free time that your boss pays you for to go on yw.December 19, 2008 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #629865
I’m glad you’re willing to talk about it civily and as a conversation, thats all I asked for, to not post unless you will respond. (I’m still waiting for Doc)
As far as the first point, see what I said on the Chumras post, regarding losing all your OH vs. some of it. I believe R’ Miller ZZL would not have said you lose all your OH if you own a TV, which was the inference I got from posters like The Big One. There are also exceptions to every rule.
I also have seen Rishonim misquote other Rishonim, so don’t be surprised if us minor beings misquote the gedolim. I like to see things in print from the source before I believe them.
The second point is valid; it is an outcome of the type of job I have. I can have 2-3 (as many as ten or more sometimes) minutes at a time while I can only wait for other things to happen before I can continue. I can also type and read very quickly.
Thank you and have a good shabbos.December 19, 2008 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #629866
I’m also glad you’re not angry/hurt, there has been enough of that going around over the past week.December 20, 2008 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #629867DocParticipant
You seem to have this bad attitude that if you ask someone something they are obligated to be there and respond to you. Or if someone makes a comment, it is mandatory that they respond to all posters who comment on it. This is far from the case. And additionally, not everyone has a laissez-faire boss who allows them to surf the net the entire workday on non-business related matters.
And who exactly are you anyways to demand that “a certain person not post anything”? Do you own or run this site? You didn’t even start this very thread!
You said “I also have seen Rishonim misquote other Rishonim”, and you are treading on very thin ice there. Who are YOU to say so? Perhaps the Rishonim quoting other Rishonim got it correct, and the quote YOU saw is incorrect.December 21, 2008 5:44 am at 5:44 am #629868mazal77Participant
This has a large amount of bitachon involved here. Someone who is doing his histadlus and working hard and still has a hard time making a parnassa. I was just reading a story to my kids that I had found very relavent to this topic. It in a treasury of sephardic bedtime stories by Shmuel Blitz and Rabbi David Suttton. This story illustrates so well of our need for Bitachon in Hakodesh B’Hu.Rabbi Yaakob Ades told it to his son Yehudah. Once there was a man named Moussa who worked very hard digging ditches. Every day while at work, he say a shephered bring his sheep to graze nearby, and he noticed everyday that one lamb who wander alone and never came back. He wondered what happened to the lambs and decided to follow one. He followed one and it went deeper into the forest. The lamb walked toward’s a cave and then entered. Inside was a sickly old bear who could hardly move. The lamb walked up to the bear and became his meal. Moussa realized that Hashem wanted this bear to stay alive and everyday He sent a lamb to the bear. All day Moussa thought about this that if Hashem could take care of this bear and keep it well fed, surely, If I fully trust in Hashem, He will also take care of me.
The next day, he decided to go the bet midrash and study Torah the whole day. He came home with no money and explained what happen with the bear. His wife thought he was crazy and took him to see the rabbi the next morninig. He remained calm and said
He who takes care of and feeds the bear will also take care of us. The wife told the rabbi and the rabbi tried to reason with him. Seeing he could not succeed with him, he told the wife to sell all her husbands tool’s to feed the family. So she went to a local arab and sold the tool’s and even the trusted donkey that used to bring Moussa back and forth to work.
The Arab took the donkey with him to the forest. While walking, he saw something hidden next to a tree. He found a chest of gold.
On his way home, he was killed when branch fell on his head killing him instantly. The donkey knowing only one way to go home, returned to his old master with the tresure on it’s back. When Moussa and his wife, found the treasure, Moussa said do you not see, He who takes care of and feeds the bear can also take care of us.
Okay, so everyone is taking about on this thread on being able to earn a living. but what it all comes down to in the end is if someone has faith in Hashem. Right now the economy is crumbling and I truly believe it will not recover. Hashem is trying to show us that basically NOTHING is secure anymore in this life accept our FAITH in Hashem. He wants us to trust him.December 22, 2008 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #629869
Whats up (Doc):
1: Demand? How about ask to follow Netiquette.
2: Kedushei kessef BKarka.
3: Thin ice?December 22, 2008 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #629870tzippiMember
Mazal, that story was beautiful, and your conclusions so true. And YET, we do have to do some hishtadlus. We have obligations now that others didn’t. In the past, if a person couldn’t provide for his family, they did without. But now there is tuition, insurance, rent/mortgage, etc. I’m not romanticizing the past. People starved, to death sometimes, or their children went off the derech, enticed by missionaries, etc. For starters.December 22, 2008 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #629871squeakParticipant
Mazal, have no fear – the economy will recover. The details might be new this time, but the situation has been here before many times. Ain chodosh tachas hashemesh. Trust the old timers, who have seen it all before. The magic word is “cycle”.
May you one day be zoche to be an old timer and cluck knowingly at such statements.
However, what you said about trusting Hashem is true. And if you or others learn this from your gut feelings about the current economic state, then you have gained tremendously and hopefully it will stay with you when the “fat” years return.December 22, 2008 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #629872
100%! Geat story! Just I am not on that level of Bitachon (yet).December 22, 2008 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #629873mazal77Participant
I know, I am not on that level of Bitachon either. My point was that we all have to realize that must have bitachon in everything. From paying tuition and bills. Times and situations have changed of course. But bitachon in Hashem must never change. Everything is coming from Hashem. I am working on this. On bitachon, something happened to me this week. I don’t drive and I didn’t want to bother my husband to take me to a shiur (he was sick). Before I left my house, I said to myself and to Hashem, “Hashem, I am going to trust that you will send someone to give me a lift to the class.” I got to the corner and saw a friend who I waved at. I didn’t even ask her for a lift, asked me if I needed a ride. I was so thankful to Hashem. B’H, my sister-in-law was at the class and she offered a ride to my girls’ chanukah workshop. I did not ask anyone except Hashem. He provided people to ask me if I needed the ride. Start with small things to work on. But, you must truly believe. Ain Od’ Milavdo.December 22, 2008 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #629874
Chuck: no, it’s not too small. It’s too big. For thousands of years, the only ones who were sitting and learning the entire day were the leaders, and those who would become the leaders. It was the best and brightest that were supported while they sat and learned all day.
In many speeches you could hear about the “glory days” in Europe, and all the yeshivas which existed before the war. Rabbonim talk about the tremendous loss we had when the yeshivas were destroyed. How many people were in those yeshivas? They weren’t even close to the size of yeshivas now! There were maybe a few dozen students, that was it. The Mir yeshiva in Yerushalayim now has over 4,000 people learning there! Yes, it’s great, but it’s not feasible. It was never done in thousands of years, so why should it happen now? Judaism is supposed to be based on what we learn from our parents and grandparents, build on the traditions of previous generations. Why is this changing?
For thousands of years, only the best and brightest sat and learned in kollel all day. That is how it should be now. Let’s follow the traditions of our grandparents.December 23, 2008 4:40 am at 4:40 am #629875
Feif Un, Unfortunately you seem to knock the Torah at every which opportunity. You wrote that “Judaism is supposed to be based on what we learn from our parents and grandparents, build on the traditions of previous generations. Let’s follow the traditions of our grandparents.” Yet you admitted you yourself disposed of the traditions of your parents, grandparents, and previous generations. You previously stated you discarded your parents, grandparents, and previous generations mode of dress. You replaced their hat with your ring. Where are you practicing what you preach?
gavra_at_work, Where is it written in the holy grail of “Netiquette” that one must respond to every inquiry? You deny posters the right to make a point and move on? Who is bound to this so-called “Netiquette”? And Doc makes a good point that you neither initiated this thread nor administer this site. Why do you not trust in the good job the mods and editor is accomplishing in posting only appropriate material, that you find it necessary to tell another poster off, not to post? Nor do I see you responding to his point that perhaps the quotes from Rishonim that you saw were incorrect, and the Rishonim quoted their contemporaries correctly.December 23, 2008 4:47 am at 4:47 am #629876TOHIGHSCHOOLGUYMember
Economics = Supply vs. Demand … or the allocation of scarce resources
The system is constructed in such a way that eventually it will fail, as it is INHERENTLY flawed.
Don’t get me wrong … I am all for people learning, and if yeshivos decide to push that, what can I do? However, I have seen that “Ba’al Ha’batim” are treated as second class citizens … shivim Panim latorah people … while i don’t mind arguing the nuances of all the various shitos, these arguments have become so archaic that I believe they don’t really have a point anymoreDecember 23, 2008 10:35 am at 10:35 am #629877
Chuck: I wear a black hat on Shabbos still. My grandfather, in his first marriage (to my grandmother, who passed away when my father was very young) did wear a ring. My father has it now, although he doesn’t wear it.
In fact, one Shabbos when I was visiting my parents, an old man in their shul (he’s almost 100 years old) asked me if I was European. He said that when he was young in Europe, most married men wore rings. He wanted to know if I was from Europe, and that was why I was wearing one.December 23, 2008 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #629878
1: “who only criticizes”
2: see #2 to DocDecember 23, 2008 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #629879dovid_yehudaParticipant
“girls and boys only want to live a life of learning….what will happen to our society?”
We are taught that it will improve – Baruch Hashem.December 23, 2008 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #629880kiruvwifeMember
Mazal77–great story–it’s also adapted on a tape for kids by Rebbee Hill called “Berel and the Berel”….halevai we should all be zoche to reach such levels of emunah and bitachon.
If we go back to the history of Klal Yisroel’s birth as a nation, and even back when they were in Mitzrayim, the majority of the shevotim were not sitting and learning. It was reserved for the few. The shevotim whose tachlis it was to sit and learn, were lovingly supported by the rest (see ma’amorim by R’ Elya Lopian who expounds on this topic in Lev Eliyahu–discussing also why shevet Levi wasn’t subjected to slavery), which earned them very special merits. Everyone though was osek in Torah learning, where the amount of time that was put into it, paralleled the tachlis Hashem gave them.
We as a nation are interconnected and depend on each other because that was how Hashem wanted it to be. We should all strive to have as much of a chelek in Torah as we can and realize that it comes in many different forms, and they should all be respected.December 23, 2008 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #629881squeakParticipant
I don’t mean to get involved in this argument, but I thought it would be interesting to mention the history of men wearing wedding rings. According to sources that I’ve seen, men wearing wedding rings is a pretty new-fangled thing.
I’ve heard that it was an idea that jewelers came up with in the late 19th century so as to double their sales (this should go in the “yiddishe kop” thread). The idea picked up momentum during the Depression and by the 1940s the vast majority of weddings involved giving a ring to the man. So a man close to 100 would have been around marriagable age back then. A man close to 150 would give you a different story.December 23, 2008 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #629882
The Mishna Brurah discusses whether a man needs to remove a ring to wash netilas yadayim. He makes no mention of it being assur, he simply discusses whether it’s necessary or not.December 23, 2008 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #629883
Feif, The M.B. discusses on the Shulchan Orach O.C. 161:3. The discussion pertains to women. To the best of my knowledge neither the mechaber nor the M.B. refer to rings on men. (Obviously it would also be a mechitza on a man.)December 23, 2008 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #629884
Actually, I believe the MB says a man does NOT have to remove his ring. I have to verify it (161:3:19,I believe)December 23, 2008 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #629885
“He makes no mention of it being assur”
complex problem whether or not it is assur (in the narrow sense)
it is certainly a goyish custom
the problem is, since so many of us Yidden have become estranged from our roots, from our fathers, from Yiddishkeit, from Hashem, and even though some observe technical Halachah, we have adopted many customs and mannerisms from our goyish environment.
do those customs become somehow then absorbed into the lowly world of Yiddishkeit today, as it is practiced by so many?
or do the embers of Har Sinai, still alive in every Yid, holy, pure and untainted by the Nations, define what is a Yiddish way of behavior?
for the Holy Poskim to determine.
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