July 6, 2008 10:54 am at 10:54 am #627669ZachKessinMember
For the person who bashed the Cleveland school bosses, the other side of that story is that the amount of scholarships that are given at the Cleveland Schools is AMAZING. One school in particular has a guarantee that no child will be turned away for inability to pay and plenty of kids go there paying virtually no tuition. </i>
great but it seems a bit unfair to pay for this by not paying the teachers.July 6, 2008 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #627670oomisParticipant
While it is true that Batei Din exist, unfortunately as anyone who has been forced to take someone to Beis Din has found out, it is very hard to get satisfaction from the experience. My husband after much anguish, made the decision to take his Yeshivah employers to BD for owing him over $2,200. He had not been paid his salary in months, but being a dedicated teacher, continued to work, believing the lies he was told. Finally when he respectfully requested that he be paid the several months’ back pay, he was issued three post-dated checks. They were written against an account that had NO money in it. That was what put him in the mode of going to Beis Din.
While the BD acknowledged in their p’sak that he was totally right and owed the money, a very simple decision to reach, they had no power to compel the Yeshivah to do the right thing. The yeshivah pled poverty and “agreed” to pay him ONLY half the amount owed, over the course of the year, and he should eat the rest of it. My husband was owed more than 4 times the amount they offered, and he refused to take the money. He had no reason to trust those checks would not bounce also. He also was not letting them feel they were now off the hook, so to speak, to ease their conscience that they paid him, when in fact they were saying,”we know we owe you, but we only want to pay you half.” As I said in my other post, there is a din v’cheshbon after 120 years, and the people who did this will have to explain to Ha-Shem how they could be so dishonest as to issue three checks to someone, knowing their were absolutely worthless. My husband did his job well, in spite of not being paid. I am saddened to see history repeat itself 20 years later with my daughter being shafted in the same manner.
As to the person who has made the comment that we are motzi shem ra on these mosdos – well, that is specifically why I have not mentioned their names. But truthfully, you are castigating the wrong people here (and in doing so, are guilty yourself of a form of lashon hara), with all due respect. The ganavim, the liars, the fraudulent employees of these Mosdos – THOSE are the people to whom you ought to be directing your remarks and mussar. All any of us has done is bring to light the fact that having a certain amount of power can be corrupting,and just because a person has the title Rabbi or Principal, does not exempt that person from mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro.
When a person promises a salary and then fails to pay it, he is oveir on SO many lahvim, that one would think that a truly “frum” person would be quaking in his boots. It also breeds ill will towards these mosdos and towards frumkeit altogether, to tell someone basically that this is G-d’s Will for him to suffer. EVERYTHING is G-d’s Will, but that does not mean we should lie back and allow people to make a shamttah out of us. We also have an obligation of “hochayach tochiyach es amisecha.” If you see a wrongdoing, or are aware of it happening in the community, we have every right to speak out against that wrongdoing, especially in a public forum, where those people may see themselves in the discussion, and possibly take steps to rectify their outrageous behavior. Please do not blame the victim or his/her support group for bringing these issues to light.July 6, 2008 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #627671e2Member
Avos 4:7 – “Do not make of the Torah a crown with which to aggrandize yourself, no a spade with which to dig”. Why are the two metaphors necessary? The first is an injunction to the student of Torah not to misuse the Torah for his own glory- a “crown”. The second is quite the reverse: a warning to the scholar not to permit himself to be abused- a “spade to dig with”- and thereby dishonor the Torah…do not teach yourself only the simple things that everyone needs to know and go forth..to teach..the simple things for a small sum and rely on their measly gifts, given in an undignified manner…people will say woe to this person who studied Torah and earns as much as a woodchopper…rather take a salary that provides income for you..to live honorably…”
-R. Yechiel Michel b. Zvi Hirsch in Le’Zecher Le’Yisroel (as quoted by R. Norman Lamm in Torah Lishmah)July 7, 2008 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #627672emanParticipant
Parents of students- I was once in the situation where the school was hopelessly behind in paying the Rabbeeim, and the Rebbe called the parents to pay him. I asked a shailoh and was told , I was pottur mdinei odom but possibly chayyiv b’dinei shomaim. I was advised to pay him if I could afford it which I did. I pulled my kids out of that mosad and my children have been matzliach, more than I could have expected. I attrribute there hatzlocho to my not handling the rebbe.
All parents should make sure that their children’s rebbees,moros and teachers are paid b’yahsrus. If parents demand it, it will happen.+July 7, 2008 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #627673
Yid613- Obviously, you are not the owner of the school and are in the same situation as the teachers and other staff. You’re attitude and anger, however, is misdirected..it should be against the owners of your school, not the children and parents. If I were you, I’d go back to the “comfortable well paying job” you had before when you were happy. The parents and children are not the cause of your matzav.July 7, 2008 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #627674PuhLeaseParticipant
Frankly, with the attitude you have, you have no business being in any form of Jewish education, administration or otherwise. You would put children in public schools, the very worst places for children with delicate neshamos, and punish the children because the parents are suffering?
Somehow, I doubt that you are in PERSONAL (as you put it) debt, but if you are, than join the rest of us that work three or four jobs, and still cannot afford tuition and groceries and utilities.
Teachers, Rabbeim, and Moros work very very hard. We take telephone calls during dinner, bedtime, children’s time, our time, before school, after school, etc. We grade papers, do paperwork and make up exams, many times for multiple types of learners, and spend far more than 40+ hours doing it. We do not get paid extra for it. Yes, it is our jobs, and yes, it is our choice, but understand that you sit behind a desk. Occasionally you might deal with discipline issues, but for the most part, you sit behind a desk, go to luncheons, have air conditioning, drive nicer cars, often do not have to pay full or any tuition for your children, deduct your many “business” trips to Florida or Israel as business expenses, even when you take your entire families. We work (and I am an English teacher, and Frum) up until the day of Yom Tov, or late on Fridays (yes, there are still schools, frum Yeshivish ones, that still have full days on Fridays) and every day in between, at the sacrifice of our families and our personal lives, and frankly, often our sanity.
Many don’t realize this, especially administrations, but the teachers that really care, those of us that are doing this to make a difference, even though we cannot afford it, we take our jobs home with us. We cry over our students at night. We see domestic violence situations, drug and alcohol abuse, and undiagnosed or mistreated learning, health, or behavioral issues. We are always thinking of our students, and how we can make their lives better, and just because the bell rings and we leave, does not mean that we leave our students behind.
So, frankly, the fact that you can even say that a person DESERVES to put their children in public school, because you feel that the parents are ingrates, when in truth they are more than likely just looking for a way to put food on the table without having to beg, borrow or steal, in addition to paying asinine amounts of tuition, is disgusting, and you have no business being in education.
Everyone else. Thank your teachers. No one else does.July 8, 2008 3:00 am at 3:00 am #627675oomisParticipant
To Yid613: Your harsh remarks about parents being ingrates and deserving to send their children to public school, really appalled me. What on earth did any of that have to do with the fact that people are complaining that their children or spouses have worked in Yeshivahs and not been paid – or have been outright cheated of their pay? You need to re-think your position, and try to understand where your own anger is coming from.July 10, 2008 6:33 am at 6:33 am #627676Bentzy18Participant
There really is two sides of the coin here. On one hand there are some administrations that do not act in the way of proper derech eretz and mistreat the teachers and parents alike. Yet there are many who don’t fall into that catagory. Where I live there have been 3 yeshivos where I have been involved with (in many capacities) and yet I have witnessed great examples of derech eretz that the adminstration bestows on their staff. Yet I see in other places first hand where they don’t.
Then there is the other side of the coin “the parent body” where you will find many parents for what ever reason not want to pay their dues in tutuion but expect (or better yet demand) the 5 start level of attention for their kids. Imagine the scene where a set of parents where begging for tuition breaks for thier kids, but then found in a 5 start hotel in Aruba. (with the entire family) Or the mother that has the 3,000 dollar sheitel, 2,000 dollar purse, all the kids in designer clothsm 2-3 cleaning ladies (one live in) and yet not have the funds to pay tuition. So I see where Yid613 is coming from (but still was rude and uncalled for the way he posted).
The bottom line the parent body is what makes up a school. If we tolerate a staff that is insensitive or refuse to pay what we can (apose to paying only what we want) then we will get the type of school where such terrible things happen. If we are to speak up and be involved, then the level will increase and all will benifit.July 10, 2008 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #627677gefilta fishMember
yidel613 – i’m not the worse type of person – ur worse!!!
i was not maligning anyone – i was stating facts as they were and as i mentioned – my former employer and children were living on a high standard while the teachers werent getting paid!!! I was in threat of being evicted from my home cos i could not pay my rent!!!! and how cud i even be expected to pay childrens school fees!!
you dont know me so dont say ‘But when I ask you for help…’ cos i help wenever i can wenever i am asked!!!!
just the fact that you say my children deserve to go to public skool shows u do not belong in the administration of yiddishe chinuch – go back to your well paid job where you can talk to ppl however you want and treat everyone like garbage!!
i do sympathise with your family – but certainly not with you – and jus the fact that you allow your family to suffer by having their utilities cut off shows that wen u dont pay ur teachers its cos u DONT CARE. unlike others hu cant!!July 16, 2008 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #627678mom18Member
To the mom of 2 daughters.
I’m sorry your daughters had the experience they did.
And I am not justifying it in any way.
Dishonesty in business dealings is one of the BIG questions asked when we go ‘UPSTAIRS’
But since they’ve experienced the disillusionment, 2 things will come out of it.
a. Just because people DRESS or TALK a certain way, doesn’t mean they ARE that way. This is a hard lesson, but if you’ve experienced it firsthand, you’ll NEVER forget it.
b. There are rotten apples in every basket, but it doesn’t mean every basket is FULL of rotten apples (even though, you may always be ‘lucky’ in picking a rotten one!)
Where is the quote that says that there is no bracha in stolen money?July 24, 2008 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #627679favishMember
to mom18 page 4…egrah d’perka ois 82 in hagoas htzvi latzadik..August 5, 2008 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #627680December 11, 2008 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #627681
What is a school supposed to do if there is just no money? Close?December 11, 2008 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #627682squeakParticipant
Ahh, the mailbag. Makes me remember when there was no CR…December 11, 2008 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #627683
Better than starting a new topic.
There has been much talk about this in the recent days. When should a school close due to lack of money, if ever?
Should the parents make the decision? The teachers? The board?December 11, 2008 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #627684
Why does YWN not post anything about Bais Faiga and the situation in Lakewood?
Mod: OK to delete if that is still in effect.December 16, 2008 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #627685GivPerfMember
After reading through this thread, I feel that I have to say that I worked in 3 different frum girls’ schools over a period of two years. I was paid every month, on time, and when I worked overtime, I was paid extra as well. No, the schools were not rich (at least two of them are known for lack of funds), but they know that the key to good chinuch is having teachers who are happy to be working for them. I truly feel for the people who have had negative experiences working in chinuch, but I must say that I really enjoyed it.
Gavra_at_work: A school that teaches Torah should stay open as long as it is able to. Only competent daas Torah can decided that the cons of staying open outweigh the benefits of teaching Torah.December 16, 2008 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #627686
Yes, but when you have conflicting parties you will have conflicting opinions as to what Daas Torah is (as we have seen in the CR!)
There is also the issue of the board having the fidicuary responsibility to the school, and that might be something to take into account.
Ask your LOR is always a good answer.
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