November 8, 2010 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #713004
If I was intentionally trying to be deceptive I wouldnt have told those who were confused that I am not in fact an attorney. I am not ashamed that I havent taken the Bar yet and I make no excuses for it, so why would I need to mislead anyone?
I am not sure why I should apologize that you werent able to differentiate my status in the words I chose, my intention was never to mislead anyone, and I dont know why this personally offends you.
“Carefully going over language is ONLY a strong point, especially in law.”
That was my point.November 8, 2010 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #713005
And even if it is, you have a kasha on that; it doesn’t change halacha.
Which is why the Brisker Mehalech avoids at all costs a Machloykes in Metzius.
In fact, the question is asked (for example, by Yesh B’Gidin Nosen Ta’am) why not go out and check the Metzius? And the answer is not “That’s the halacha, you have a Kasha” 🙂November 8, 2010 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #713006
Rashis daughhters wouldnt stand a chance on todays shidduch scene. They wrote on shas, wore tefillin, and were probably smarter than many of the bachurim in France.November 8, 2010 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #713007
Myfriend. I did. As I suspected. You misrepresent Rashi.November 8, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #713008phrumMember
There are many frum men who believe “over educated” is an oxymoron and would jump at the chance to be set up with Yoheved, her sisters, their current gilgullim, and other firey, inteligent, engaged, accomplished,and earnest women with so much to offer to their husbands as well as their children, as we have in this thread and on this board. I believe family should always be the ultimate priority, but that is also true for our men and I don’t see a thread complaining about Over-Educated Boys.November 8, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #713009myfriendMember
APY: Before hurling false accusations a) brush up on your Hebrew or Aramaic reading comprehension and b) note I didn’t quote Rashi.November 8, 2010 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #713010SJSinNYCMember
Wolf, if her masters is in an acceptable Jewish profession (like OT/PT or speech), its ok.
Otherwise, its important to divorce her immediately and find a new wife through the shidduch system.November 8, 2010 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #713011
GAW: Learning Torah is an obligation for a man not a privilege. Obviously Chaza”l meant to explain why a women does not require Torah learning in order for them to reach perfection, and that is why the Torah has not obligated them to study Torah, as we learn from the posuk “Vishinantum L’banecha V’loa L’binosecha”.
Of course women may study as much Torah as they wish, the same way Rash”i’s daughters have studied. However, one may question what their true motives are when studying; is their sole purpose just to send a feminist message to the Frum world? Or is it their sincere desire for spiritual fulfillment that urges them to study Torah?
BTW: Are you a Gavra or a woman? If the former, then why do feel compelled to defend your opposite gender? If the latter, then you should be well aware that the Torah recognizes a women as having the same spiritual status as a man. And in many areas in halacha and agaddah it is the women rather then the man who is given unique status.November 8, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #713012
You agree with my outlook 100% (why women don’t have to learn (obvious, it is halacha), and the Feminist agenda vs. Leshma concept).
I just don’t think women are dummies, and Metzius has proved that to be the case (which is why I strongly disagree with Popa, not you).November 8, 2010 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #713013
Who said women are dummies? sheesh, everyone just brings up their agendas and ignores any resemblance of a conversation based on facts. Come, let’s blame this on…kollel…or yeshivish people…because you need to respect all opinions and people and be open minded…expect yeshivish ones…yes, I’m venting.November 8, 2010 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #713014
Lomed Mkol Adam,
In today’s Daf Yomi we learn that whoever learns torah for the wrong reason will eventually learn for the right reason.November 8, 2010 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #713015
SJS, WOLF –
Typically, if she’s get the degree with shiniu, then the poskim are matir bdieved, as long as she doesn’t actually know what she’s talking about – because then it would be meleches machsheves.November 8, 2010 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #713016
Charlie Hall: the Gemora is referring to obligatory mitzvos not optional ones. Regarding optional mitzvos it may not be halachically permissive to practice if one’s intentions are “shloa lishma”.
Additionally, see what the Gemara says regarding one who learns with an intention of “Likanter”; it may very well be that sending feminist messages to the Klal, fits under the category of “Likanter”.November 8, 2010 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #713017
This law is based on the Mishnah (Sotah 20a). Rashi says that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning.
By so right (sic) on page 2.
Sounds like a dummy 🙂 Now if you said a woman’s role in Yiddishkeit is not meant for serious torah learning, I would agree. It is the “minds” part that bothers me.
BTW, it is all the fault of Kollel. Women also want to sit and learn and have their wives or FIL support. It is, as the Mishna says one should work doing, an “Umnus Kalla U’Nekiya”. 🙂November 8, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #713018
I think sacrilege went to an international law school, and so is able to practice in NY if she takes the Bar.
Sac: I think some schools offer a 2 year JD program for international law students. You may want to consider that one day.November 8, 2010 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #713019
I hope that what he meant that Hashem didn’t design them for it , and gave them talents that men don’t have for other areas. Hashem gives up what we need for the mission we have. It’s a pretty good way to figure out your mission.
Again, Beruriah was pretty darn smart – more then her husband R’ Meir ( she seems to bested him in every argument they have. Except for their last one, which unfortunately resulted in her death and R’ Meir eternal embarrassment, so I’m not sure if he chalked it up as a victory.)November 8, 2010 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #713020
gavra; charlie; anyone else who dislikes Rashi:
That is not how it works. We don’t observe what is successful and decide a rishon was wrong. And if we happen to pasken like one rishon over another, we don’t call the other wrong.November 8, 2010 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #713021MrsMember
As an overeducated woman (there is, by the way, no such thing) and coming from a family of overeducated women (we are all doctors, lawyers, dentists and cpas) im amazed to hear the stupidity that is coming from people. Firstly, i was married by the age of 21 which i dont think is old and none of the prof women i know – and i knwo many – were married older than 23). Secondly choosing to have fewer kids is a personal decision and maybe a brighter one at that – Im choosing to have only as many children as I can afford meaning i pay full tuition for camp and school and dont accept medicaide welfare etc. maybe its because im educated that i can come to the conclusion that the goal is to have a happy family not to have as many kids as your body will allow while you worry about the bills every month because neither you nor your husband are making a living bec its not kosher to go to school (gd forbid someone should go to college or heavens no medical school!!!). the reason why so many yeshivos are in debt is because no one is making a living. i knwo the recession has hurt a lot of pple but what about before the recession? what about the women (and of course men) who felt no need to go to college and grade school so they can better provide for their families? isnt this one reason why so many yeshivos have no money for mortgages and salaries? stop considering an educated girl over educated, instead look at her as a prize. And an educated girl doesnt want your uneducated son to ride on her coat tails. go to school and make something of yourself so you have something to give to future generations….November 8, 2010 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #713022
I hope that what he meant that Hashem didn’t design them for it , and gave them talents that men don’t have for other areas.
I can live with that. It is like comparative advantage, even when one party is better at both things, it makes sense for one party to do one and the other the other.
If so, I retract the dummy comment. But since I haven’t been able to find the Rashi (help?), so I don’t know what he really said.November 8, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #713023
LOL! What made you think I am an International
Law Student? (Although that would be pretty cool)November 8, 2010 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #713024HelpfulMember
Perhaps the unstated concern with “overeducated girls” is that they may expect to “wear the pants in the house”.November 8, 2010 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #713025
Myfriend. If you didnt quote Rashi, why did you jump down my throat when I made a comment that I doubted the veracity of the quote attributed to Rashi? You then tell me to look at a Rashi in sotah. I did. Again, no Rashi on daf chaf in sotah says what was claimed Rashi said. Neither does the gemara in kiddushin, according to either opinion, Ben Azzai or R’ Eliezer (elazar?), certainly not according to the way Rashi explains the gemara. If you did not say anything about Rashi, then my comment wasnt pointed to you and you should chill out. I’ll ignore your snide remarks I’m not looking to get into a tit for tat with you.
Since you are giving these 2 sources. Why don’t you tell me what you believe they are teaching us?November 8, 2010 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #713026
“The Shulchan Aruch follows this approach of Rambam.”
And the chofetz chaim says that this halacha was applicable to the singular circumstances prevelant back then. Those circumstances are not found “these days” (the CC said this in his day).November 8, 2010 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #713027lawgirlMember
As a 24 year old single and female law student I can relate to the some of the things mentioned in this thread. In addition to being able to relate to some of what was said , I disagree with some of what was said in the thread. I will attempt to point out the statements I agree with, the statements I disagree with, and then finally set out a theory as to the “single female law student/lawyer crisis of 2010.”
1- I agree with asyyeger’s claim that many guys do not want to seriously date and marry women who are smarter than they are. I had this conversation with a young man I was on a date with yesterday and he agreed and admitted to having many friends who feel intimidated by women that are smarter than they are on dates. Because I am a smart woman I have often been told (generally by my father) to be less obvious about my intellect on dates. His theory is that men are intimidated by smart women and it is best to slowly let the man see your intelligence. My constant response to him is, “I don’t know how to control it.” I’d like to think that the man I marry will be appreciate my intelligence. Perhaps this is too much to ask…
2- In addition I agree with asyyeger’s point that law school teaches you how to think like a lawyer and that overflows into other parts of your life. Recently I’ve been receiving comments that I need to “stop talking like a lawyer.” Again, this is not something I can control and if I actively find myself “talking like a lawyer” I attempt to stop myself. However, I am (or will be) and shouldn’t have to quash tha aspect of my personality.
3- A third point where I agree with asyyeger, time to date. Clearly I have or make the time to date when I mentioned above that I had a date with a guy last night (who was not intimidated by my intelligence) and have another guy flying across the country to date me tomorrow (yes I double date- at “my age” you can’t afford to give up an opportunity that arises). There’s enough time to date. Did I mention I had a boyfriend my entire first year of law school? Like anything else in life, if it’s a priority you will make time for it.
4- I very much hear the point of apushatayid. If I were 24 and had no job or career at all I would be considered a moocher. But did we forget about the guys that are moochers? I was talking to a guy I went out with a few years ago who at that point didn’t like me because he was intimidated by my intelligence. On the date he told me the only reason he went to college is so girls wouldn’t say no him in shidduchim. He’s now 31 years old, still single, and something important on his list is an accomplished girl. How is that fair to the girl to be accomplished when her husband isn’t her equal? A friend of mine said to me earlier today that a person is happiest when they think they have something of value and even happier when they don’t fully believe they deserve that item. How can a girl be happy if she doesn’t believe she has something of value?
5- Whoever said OT/PT/Speech is harder than law school has clearly never been to law school. This not meant to minimize the difficulty of OT/PT, but I’ve watched my therapist friends and I’ve been through law school. There is no way and no comparison in the difficulty of the schooling of the different careers.
6- As for establishing my own theory of the “female law student shidduch crisis of 2010,” I think it’s a triangle. The same rational that is applied to the agism in shidduchim applies to the intelligent female. Let me start by explaining the age triangle for those who are unfamiliar with it. A popular theory is that there are so many more “older” single girls than “older” single guys because as a guy gets older his pool gets larger while as a girl gets older her pool only gets smaller. A 30 year old guy can easily be set up with a 22 year old girl while a 30 year old girl will (almost) never be set up with a 22 year old guy. This creates somewhat of a triangle, as the guy gets older he climbs to the peak to look down at his potential mates while as a girl gets older she climbs to the peak only able to look up to her potential mates. The same is true for men and women and intelligence. A smarter, more educated, male can be set up with a smarter, more educated, female while a smarter, more educated, female will generally only be set up with more educated men. Again, this creates a similar triangle affect.
Now, imagine combining the two triangles? You can see how as an educated guy gets older even if the width of the base of his triangle remains the same the width of the peak of the girls triangle has just become vastly narrower.November 8, 2010 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #713028HelpfulMember
Good points. Though you mentioned having a boyfriend for a year, so we can assume you are M.O. That makes some of your other points different than Chareidi girls.November 8, 2010 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #713029
Lawgirl – You’ve won your case, that’s for certain. And the gap only gets wider; while we hope you file for a marriage license soon – in two year (one?) you’ll be an associate at…oh, ENY or something and then what?
As you said, the gap only widens. Then what?
The only thing I can tell you is that men often thrive after marriage; frankly, as I said before, girls do better then men in their single years. Perhaps seeing a guy’s potential may be worthwhile. Healthy marriages energize men, and they often accomplish far more then they do in their single years, with someone relying on them. But yes, it is absolutely essential to marry some you genuine respect.
And some guys do indeed seek intellectual equals (or better). I did back in the day. Shadchanim redt me “the strange” girls (do you know what it is like to take a chemist to a chinese restaurant?) My friends though, weren’t interested.
I would like to tell myself that it has something to with self-confidence and self-image, but I honestly think it has to do with their image of the ideal feminine (flighty, ditzy, oh so cute) & type of marriage they want. In other words, not better or worse. Just different. B”H my story ended well.
Hatzlacha!November 8, 2010 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #713030fabieMember
Without reading the entire thread. There is no such thing as an overeducated woman. If a woman is respectful to her husband regardless of his intellect, then we’re fine. If she abuses her intellect, then that’s another story.
Honestly, a smart Yeshiva Man is better off with an educated woman, not that that’s the only or main part of the relationship, but it surely helps, even when, and maybe better yet when her expertise is in another field as his is, e.g., a lawyer – Talmid Chacham.
Good healthy intelligent discussion!November 9, 2010 12:01 am at 12:01 am #713031
“And if we happen to pasken like one rishon over another, we don’t call the other wrong. “
This isn’t a matter of paskening, this is a matter of facts.
“His theory is that men are intimidated by smart women and it is best to slowly let the man see your intelligence”
Not all men. My wife regularly beats me at Scrabble.November 9, 2010 12:04 am at 12:04 am #713032
‘Regarding optional mitzvos it may not be halachically permissive to practice if one’s intentions are “shloa lishma”. ‘
And that is pretty irrelevant to torah study because women are obligated in all but about a dozen mitzvot from the torah. It is not an “optional mitzvah” for women to learn torah. I my neighborhood we have many women who regularly attend either daf yomi or in-depth gemara shiurim.November 9, 2010 12:05 am at 12:05 am #713033
” If she abuses her intellect, then that’s another story.”
That applies to men, too!November 9, 2010 12:29 am at 12:29 am #713034
“Whoever said OT/PT/Speech is harder than law school has clearly never been to law school. This not meant to minimize the difficulty of OT/PT, but I’ve watched my therapist friends and I’ve been through law school. There is no way and no comparison in the difficulty of the schooling of the different careers.”
If you’ll go back and read my comment you will see the parentheses:
“(and in my opinion it is much tougher)”
I didnt say it has been proven that an OT/PT degree is harder, all I did was state my opinion. I am terrible at science. When I hear my close friend talk about what she learned I am amazed, I dont think I would have ever been to do what she does, that is why I chose law. I find it interesting and it challenges me in all the right ways.
Dont flippantly disregard someone else’s accomplishments because of a differing of opinion.November 9, 2010 12:55 am at 12:55 am #713035gradaMember
this is insane. a girl can be as educated as she wants and if a guy is intimidated by her….then he shouldntt go out with her or whatever it is. she is too good for him and he doenst deserve herNovember 9, 2010 12:59 am at 12:59 am #713036gradaMember
what does MO stand forNovember 9, 2010 1:24 am at 1:24 am #713037Simcha 44Member
Very well said.November 9, 2010 1:48 am at 1:48 am #713038HealthParticipant
As a professional -I disagree with the term over-educated. I have experience in law and medicine. I think once upon a time, people had to be intelligent to get a graduate degree. Nowadays, it’s way overated. I find a lot of professionals coming out of schools that are incompetent. (Men & Women.) Partly because they just memorize to pass tests, amongst other reasons. I think boys have less self-confidence than girls for a variety of reasons, therefore they are reluctant to seek educated girls for spouses.November 9, 2010 1:50 am at 1:50 am #713039myfriendMember
grada – nice in theory. But in practice these girls get stuck when it comes to shidduchim.
charlie – girls are halachicly prohibited from learning gemorah. Only YU and non-Orthodox types engage in that.November 9, 2010 2:17 am at 2:17 am #713040tzippiMember
MO is an acronym for Modern Orthodox.
And about law school vs. OT or PT (which now requires a PhD IIRC): while the former is more vigorous the latter still takes some serious smarts and commitment and results in the kind of over-education the OP referred to.
And about women learning, gemara or otherwise: There are many serious learned women in the BY world, and I don’t mean gemara. They have the kind of curriculum that used to be offered the boys in terms of well-rounded nach knowledge, as well halacha l’maaseh, hashkafa, and history; and the ability to learn sifrei hashkafa inside if they’re so inclined. And, many women now are fairly committed to continued learning, formally, in classes, and on line or on the phone. Again, even without gemara, resulting in very educated young women, which could be intimidating.November 9, 2010 3:08 am at 3:08 am #713041TantaMember
and girls that went to Bnos Chava.November 9, 2010 3:47 am at 3:47 am #713042WIYMember
Theres nothing wrong with being smart. Either way, in my experience most smart girls prefer smart guys anyways. I dont know you but you should think about if you really want to be married to a guy who is significantly less educated and less brainy than you are.
Theres one thing to be uneducated, but a guy can make up for that with sharp wits and a fast intellect. However if he has neither I think most smart girls will just find that the chemistry is off and that he lacks “substance.”
Intelligent people tend to enjoy intelligent conversation and therefore should be paired up with intelligent people. Most smart guys wont be intimidated if they are less educated but are still plenty worldly and have a good head.
Its the feeble minded guys that tend to be scared off by educated brainy girls.
Thats my opinion anyways. Maybe only date smarter guys or guys who have degrees or whatever it is…smart people have a reputation and the Shadchan will be able to find you smart guys to date. Either way your whole theory with the triangle and all that makes fun reading but isnt based in Torah reality.
We Jews have Emunah and we believe that Hashem has a zivug prepared for us and when the time is right the 2 of you will meet and and connect. It can even be someone you once dated but it didnt work out because the time wasnt right. It has nothing to do with male female ratios and all that other garbage. No offense but if you have Emunah you will understand that in an extremely theoretical case where there is only one single guy left in the world every other single girl can date him but if he is meant for you, he wont click with the others and you will get him and no other girl will.November 9, 2010 4:10 am at 4:10 am #713043
Who are your views representative of? Do other modern orthodox have a similar attitude towards Rashi?
Feel free to chime in, any other MO posters; is it ok to argue with a rishon?
Minyangal, how about conservative, what do you say?November 9, 2010 4:39 am at 4:39 am #713044
“charlie – girls are halachicly prohibited from learning gemorah. Only YU and non-Orthodox types engage in that. “
Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l said that it was a *chiyuv* on Jewish communities to teach women gemara. He *personally* taught women gemara. The rabbis in my community all learned from The Rov or his students and they all hold by that position. It is certainly possible to pasken otherwise, but we are entitled to follow The Rov — as is anyone who wishes to follow his derech.November 9, 2010 5:48 am at 5:48 am #713045
Poskim, especially Ashkenazic ones, will argue on *halachah* with rishonim, even when they don’t have a competing rishon to back them up. Kal v’chomer on a matter of empirical fact. We don’t follow Rambam’s medical advice when it disagrees with modern science. We don’t follow Ibn Ezra’s geography when it is clearly at odds with the actual geography of Eretz Yisrael. The rishonim were great, but they didn’t have access to the facts we have today. They were experts in Torah, not science or geography.November 9, 2010 11:15 am at 11:15 am #713046
Charlie Hall: “And that is pretty irrelevant to torah study because women are obligated in all but about a dozen mitzvot from the torah. It is not an “optional mitzvah” for women to learn torah.”
Torah learning is one of the dozen mitzvos which a woman is not obligated in, as the Gemara learns from the posuk “Vishinantum L’banecha V’loa L’binosecha”. Of course women need to learn the practical halachos which are applicable to them in order for them to practice them properly; however, actual studying in depth is not an obligation for them.November 9, 2010 11:28 am at 11:28 am #713047SJSinNYCMember
myfriend, women are allowed to learn gemara. The question is really whether or not you can formally teach them.
Really, would you trust a religion where more than 50% of its members were cut off from major chunks of information? I wouldn’t.November 9, 2010 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #713048
Could someone please point out where this supposed Rashi is?
I don’t think it actually exists.
I would love to be proved wrong.
EDITEDNovember 9, 2010 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #713049
Charlie Hall: You state from Rav Soloveitchik Zt”l that he paskened that women have ‘chiyuv’ to actually study gemorah; are you implying that Jewish women over the past millennium have repeatedly transgressed this obligation by merely practicing halachos w/o actually studying them inside from their sources?
Also pretty interesting to me that you believe that following blindly a Rav’s instructions constitutes a Mitzvah never mind an obligation, especially when it runs counter to what it states in the Gemorah which I quoted above that women are NOT obligated to actually study gemorah in depth.
My Friend: Women are not prohibited from learning Gemorah, it’s not any different from Mitzvos Sh’zman Grama which women are not obligated in, but may nevertheless practice on their own will.November 9, 2010 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #713050
Poskim, especially Ashkenazic ones, will argue on *halachah* with rishonim, even when they don’t have a competing rishon to back them up.
No. They don’t. Some achoaronim were willing to, but there is no contemporary posek who will. And even when an acharon did, it was not with the glee of; “and B”H he has been proven wrong”.
Kal v’chomer on a matter of empirical fact.
While I don’t think we need to believe everything any rishon said when it does not relate to halacha, it is hard to consider psychology a matter of empirical fact.November 9, 2010 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #713051
“Some achoaronim were willing to, but there is no contemporary posek who will.”
Not true. An obvious example of this is the unwillingness to accept the Ethiopian Jews as Jews despite the fact no rishon agrees (and the Radvaz paskened otherwise). Another obvious example is the ban on university education; I’ve seen no rabbinic objection prior to the 19th century (and Sforno earned his medical degree at the University of Rome).November 9, 2010 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #713052
“You state from Rav Soloveitchik Zt”l that he paskened that women have ‘chiyuv’ to actually study gemorah”
Please reread my post and you will see that is not what I said (or what The Rav said).November 9, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #713053
“it is hard to consider psychology a matter of empirical fact. “
Some psychology *is*; I’ve personally published a lot of psychology data. But that isn’t what we are talking about here: The fact is that there ARE women who are outstanding torah scholars and teachers.
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