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APY, but pretty entertaining 🙂
Lomed: you are becoming a laughingstock with your broad brushed calumny about the spiritual health of others. And your comments of “part of Himself and connecting to God Himself are approaching MINUS if not already there, despite the Zohar and kaveyochols. Fundamentalism can lead you in funny directions.
Twisted: I really don’t mind being perceived funny. I am just stating the simple truth. If you would check up the sources I quoted inside, you would see that I was just literally translating the words of Midrashim and Zohar. I guess you just perceive the Chareidim as being backward and too spiritual oriented. However, the MO way of thinking and perception of Judaism seems likewise very shallow/superficial to us Chareidim.
BTW: Noach was also a laugh stock when he preached religion to the people of his generation; so was Moshe Rabbeinu when he approached Pharaoh and spoke to him in the name of God.
Oh well.
“However, the MO way of thinking and perception of Judaism seems likewise very shallow/superficial to us Chareidim.”
Do you understand it? Ever attend a shiur by Rabbis Schachter or Willig or Rosensweig or Linzer? Or read any of the many writings of Rabbi Lichtenstein?
“The same Rav Ahron that said (and is written in his Mishnas Rabi Ahron, vol. 3, in his Hesped for the Brisker Rov) that the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative. “
OTOH he also had Rav Soloveitchik as the featured speaker at the very first Chinuch Atzmai fundraising dinner. And Rav Kotler deferred to Rav Soloveitchik on at least one importent public policy matter, on a bill in the US Congress that might have affected kashrut in the US. Could you ever imagine him deferring to Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan?
I am a strong believer that there are two flavors of MO – that of Rav Herschel Shachter and that of Avi Weiss.
But, it is historically inaccurate to say that ultimately a great divide did not develop between R’ Yoshe Berr and the other Gedoley Yisroel. But how did we get into this?
Charliehall: Your outlook of Judaism is clearly void of recognition of the spiritual components of the Torah and each of its mitzvos. This recognition is central to Judaism, and without believing it, one cannot be considered practicing authentic Judaism.
When reviewing our history, we can find similar precedents to the Mizrachi movement. First, it started with Korach questioning the validity of Moshe Rabbeinu’s interpretation of the Torah. Then, during Bais sheini the Tzidukim questioned the validity of the Talmudic sages’ [in their times] interpretation of the Torah Shba’al Peh. And now we have people in the Modern Era questioning the validity of the Midrashim/Zohar which interpret the spiritual meaning of Torah and its essence.
The Gemora states that the “Nistar”-hidden part of the Torah was given personally to Moshe on Har Sinai. How can one be selective and claim he believes only the “Nigla”-revealed part of the Torah was given on Har Sinai, but not the Nistar-midrashim/zohar?
Lomed, you sound very arrogant. Best by ready if someone actually ask you back up what you are saying. And don’t expect any friendly rachmanus if you’re just quoting your 10th grade rebbe.
Your outlook of Judaism is clearly void of recognition of the spiritual components of the Torah and each of its mitzvos. This recognition is central to Judaism, and without believing it, one cannot be considered practicing authentic Judaism.
What does that mean?
Please define “spiritual components”.
Is Zohar now the only Torah Shel Ba’al Peh (as would seem from your last paragraph)?
Do you believe that all Medrashim (or the Zohar, for that matter) are infallible?
Thanks.
Moq: I don’t intend to be arrogant; I’m just really bothered by influences which the Modern Orthodox movement perpetrates. Actually in my above post I was referring solely to the Modern Orthodox movement not the Mizrachi movement, [they are based on very different philosophies]. Yes, I am open to public debate on this.
Of course Gavra! That’s why Rishonim will never argue with a Medrash…. wait…
GAW: I didn’t mean Zohar in specific, I meant all Agadda of the Talmud and Midrashim compiled in the era of Tanaaim. And I’m only referring to Midrashim that discuss the spiritual world and the spiritual essence of the mitzvos. The Midrashim which discuss science and nature are not included in the “Nistar” of Torah and are therefore for a different discussion.
GAW: I didn’t mean Zohar in specific, I meant all Agadda of the Talmud and Midrashim compiled in the era of Tanaaim. And I’m only referring to Midrashim that discuss the spiritual world and the spiritual essence of the mitzvos. The Midrashim which discuss science and nature are not included in the “Nistar” of Torah and are therefore for a different discussion.
That is even more confusing.
1: Wasn’t the Zohar written by a Tanna.
2: what is meant by “the spiritual essence of the mitzvos”
3: Regarding what are you bothered about “the spiritual world” and some members of Klal Yisroel?
Thanks.
Yes, what is piety and impiety?
GAW:
The fact is that Modern orthodox scholars have never delved into the meaning of the Agaddos in the Gemara, and they never conveyed to their students the significance and importance of this part of the Torah. Therefore, many of their followers didn’t feel that belief in these words of the sages is necessary for their Judaism. And in the same way they ignored the Tamudic discussions about science and nature (a different issue), they also ignored these spiritual discussions in the Talmud, w/o realizing that this knowledge is actually crucial to practicing real Judaism, and w/o it basically one is just doing mitzvos without its intended purpose.
To mention just a few examples: The Aggadah in the Gemora in numerous places stresses how learning Torah in depth is a primary obligation for a man in order for him to connect with God, and this has no relation to his obligation to acquire the know how to practice halachos properly. Still, Mr. Hall states in his above post [reflecting the opinion in his community]
Another example: The Talmud Aggadah states in numerous places that women who are married and support their husbands learning are considered as actually studying that Torah themselves, and they have equal share in that Torah which was learned; if all people in MO community really believed in the truth of these words of the sages [which is actually learned from pesukim]
[contrary to what was conveyed to us in aggadah and midrashim]?Still, Mr. Hall states in his above post [reflecting the opinion in his community], that one can fulfill his obligation of talmud torah through learning Chumash,
It is DR. Hall, and actually it is a Gemorah Nedarim, and all you really need is Shema (8a IIRC).
So I assume Navi has Halachic applications? Why should Navi be any different?
numerous passages of Talmud Agaddah which state that one must learn Gemora solely in order to connect with God.
Never heard of Talmud Agaddah. Can you point me to one such passage, and what Talmud Agaddah is? Who wrote it, etc.
I’m not going to go through the rest of it, just quote a Rashi Regarding Korbanos and Rayach Nichoach:
“I am satisfied, for I have spoken and My will has been fulfilled”.
Nothing about Sefiros or any other mystical stuff going on in Shomayim (which you have still not attempted to define).
Lomed Mkol Adam:
Are you Lubavitch? I ask because specificly they concentrate on Chassidus (which I think is what you are getting at), while Litvaks don’t, and other Chassidim (in general) minimalize it.
GAW: .
1)To see Aggada sources for this understanding of the mitzvah of talmud torah [to connect with God], check up my previous post (page 4) in which I quoted numerous sources.
2) The Gemorah states that when one passes away and ascends to heaven, the second question he is asked is “Kavata Itim L’Torah”; may I ask, if one can halachically fulfill mitzvah of talmud torah with Kriyas Shema, then why are they asking him this in heaven, doesn’t every Jew recite kriyas shema twice a day,(and for halacha questions he may ask his rabbi)? Also see Midrash in Mishlei which states one is obligated to learn in his lifetime and remember as much gemorah as he possibly can; how does this not contradict with the gemorah Nedarim?
The answer is that there is another primary obligation in the Torah: “V’Uhavta Es Hashem Elokecha” and the midrash asks, how can one make himself love God? Answers the midrash, through “V’hayu hadivorim Ha’ela Al Livuvecha”-by placing the Torah words on your heart, that is how you will naturally acquire love (and grow in love) for God. So it’s actually this Torah obligation which obligates us to learn diligently gemorah and acquire as much gemorah knowledge that we can possibly obtain in our lifetime, as stated in midrash mishlei.
3) Of course halachically one fulfills a mitzvah w/o having an actual mystical kavana while doing the mitzvah. However, one must still believe in the truth of the agadda in talmud which states that when one does a mitzvah he creates an angel. Our obligation to believe in this is obviously learned from the mitzvah of “Lidivka Boa” since one cannot possibly obtain defeykus w/o believing in the mystical aspect of the mitzvos. [There is a clear difference between actual mystical kavana and general belief in the mysticism nature of all mitzvos.]
If all people in MO community really believed in this spiritual nature of mitzvos, then they would be naturally “motivated” to do more mitzvos of bein adam l’makom, and they would also naturally have a desire to be “Mehader” in those mitzvos, [and not seek to be merely “Yotzei”].
LMA, you are woefully ignorant of MO thought process and philosophy. Who says MO people don’t believe in mystical aspects of mitzvos? Why does that mean they don’t perform mitzvos because Hashem commanded them? That is WHY we keep mitzvos. We would even if there were no kabbalistic reason.
And why would a woman not want to rely on her husband’s learning? Would you rely on paying someone else to do mitzvos for you? Especially if it helps you connect to Hashem?
In addition, the Gemorah in Nedarim is referring to the daily obligation of talmud torah, which is learned from the posuk in Yehoshua “V’Higisa Boa Yomam V’layala”, which the Gemorah states that in can be accomplished through kriyas shema morning and night. However, the general lifetime obligation of acquiring Torah knowledge which is learned from the posuk “V’shinantum L’banecha”-Sheyihu divrei torah Michudadim Bificha”, obviously requires a lifetime of intense and repeated learning.
he would easily comprehend why it’s preferable to learn Gemora over chumash, since gemora learning requires more intense concentration,
Tell that to the Daf crowd (not that they are not doing something wonderful; they are)
1)To see Aggada sources for this understanding of the mitzvah of talmud torah [to connect with God], check up my previous post (page 4) in which I quoted numerous sources.
Yes, but nothing inside. Please show me where I can look it up for myself. There have been way too many misquotes here.
For point 2, you are differentiating between the Chiyuv of Talmud Torah to Mitzva of Limud. I don’t disagree, but Dr. Hall is not incorrect.
However, one must still believe in the truth of the agadda in talmud which states that when one does a mitzvah he creates an angel.
I don’t think anyone will disagree, but that is not the point of the mitzva. That is actually similar to being Oved to accept reward (i.e. create a “Malach” (also not explained) that will be a Maylitz for you & the world), which is a lesser madraiyga.
. Our obligation to believe in this is obviously learned from the mitzvah of “Lidivka Boa” since one cannot possibly obtain deveykus w/o believing in the mystical aspect of the mitzvos. (sic)
Finally, we are getting somewhere. Lidavka Bo. But you don’t explain why you require the mysticism. Rashi seems to say the point is to do Korbanos because Hashem wants it, not mysticism.
If all people in MO community really believed in this spiritual nature of mitzvos,
Which you have still not explained.
The way I see your point is that you believe without Chassidus, Mitvos are “Judaism that carries no spiritual significance”. (paraphrase).
That is OK for you to believe.
And you did not answer my question regarding Lubavitch.
GAW: 1) “To see Aggada sources for this understanding of the mitzvah of talmud torah [to connect with God], check up my previous post (page 4) in which I quoted numerous sources.
Yes, but nothing inside. Please show me where I can look it up for myself. There have been way too many misquotes here.”
I just quoted a source in the above post: “V’ahavta Es Hashem Elokecha”; inner love and connection are really the same essence. [How else do you tempt t explain this mitzvah to master tractates of Gemorah which totally don’t contain any halachos that are applicable b’zman hazeh?]
2) “For point 2, you are differentiating between the Chiyuv of Talmud Torah to Mitzva of Limud. I don’t disagree, but Dr. Hall is not incorrect.”
I’m not interested in getting into a tit for tat as to whether I stated that Mr Hall is halachically incorrect [which I actually didn’t].
3) “However, one must still believe in the truth of the agadda in talmud which states that when one does a mitzvah he creates an angel.
I don’t think anyone will disagree, but that is not the point of the mitzva. That is actually similar to being Oved to accept reward (i.e. create a “Malach” (also not explained) that will be a Maylitz for you & the world), which is a lesser madraiyga.”
Absolutely wrong, the creation of the angel shows the actual essence of the mitzvah itself. The mitzvah is the angel, and the angel is the mitzvah; this is how the connection to God occurs, since the angel is the connection. The melitz yosher part is a side point. See how people in your circles don’t delve properly into the meaning of aggados.
4) “Our obligation to believe in this is obviously learned from the mitzvah of “Lidivka Boa” since one cannot possibly obtain deveykus w/o believing in the mystical aspect of the mitzvos. (sic)
Finally, we are getting somewhere. Lidavka Bo. But you don’t explain why you require the mysticism. Rashi seems to say the point is to do Korbanos because Hashem wants it, not mysticism.”
GAW, it is not possible to feel actual connection to God, if you don’t believe in mystical belief that the connection occurs. This is simple logic. I explained to you what Rash”i means in the above post.
5)”If all people in MO community really believed in this spiritual nature of mitzvos,
Which you have still not explained.”
I think I explained it very clearly. The spiritual nature of the mitzvos, is the mystical belief behind it.
6)”The way I see your point is that you believe without Chassidus, Mitvos are “Judaism that carries no spiritual significance”. (paraphrase).
That is OK for you to believe.
And you did not answer my question regarding Lubavitch.”
I’m actually a simple chareidi Jew, w/o any affiliation to any chasidus. I really don’t know why you even think I am a chosid.
SJS: “And why would a woman not want to rely on her husband’s learning? Would you rely on paying someone else to do mitzvos for you? Especially if it helps you connect to Hashem?”
If you believe in what the Gemorah says that a man is not complete with Torah w/o him spiritually giving/sharing the actual Torah that he learns with his wife; then how can you possibly deny him this spiritual fulfillment by opting to ignore his learning and learn yourself?
I don’t think there is any point in my continuing to comment on this thread.
ok………. i have not been following the sequence of posts, but there is a much-needed response to the title of this thread!
firstly, there is no such thing as over-education! i have never heard something so bizarre as that description!! we were given brains for a single purpose – to use them. people tend to forget this fact. education is a sharpening of the mind. when one part of the mind is sharpened, all parts are sharpened accordingly.
to add proof to my point, in pirkei avos it says “al tihee maflig l’chal davar.” rashi says there “l’chal dvar chachmah.”
dont say about any subject or matter of intellect “why do i have to know that?” or “what purpose does that have for me?” all educational matters are of relevance because they morph you into a smarter person. this includes the arts, music, the sciences, etc. there is chachmah in all of this. and only study of these subjects can reveal just how much depth is out there…
regarding educated individuals getting married later-
the chicken came before the egg.
girls who choose to advance their education, especially in fields that are not among those chosen by most yeshivish people, tend to be more unique individuals. these girls used their minds and actually put thought into what would suit them best in the future. they didnt simply follow the crowd and go for the easiest field that has been paved by all their friends and relatives. these girls will use the same tactic in finding their spouses. they cant just marry anyone. they need similar unique individuals who follow their minds and hearts rather than others’ shadows.
this is hard to find .. … …
Before one learns any mystical aspect of a Mitzvah, he must know every non mystical detail of that Mitzvah first.
If it is a Rabbinic law, one must know what Biblical law it is to protect.
This is why Kabbalah should only be studied by those already established as strong scholars in the revealed Torah.
I do find plenty of spirituality in the revealed Torah.
Josh31: I pointed out that one cannot possibly fulfill the biblical law of “Viahavta Es Hashem Elokecha” if they do not recognize the spiritual entity of the actual Torah [and that it is an extension koviyochol of God Himself], and understand that when studying it inside, one actually connects/bonds their soul with this spiritual entity. This is demonstrated clearly in the midrash [which explains the posuk] I quoted above, which states that the only way to feel real love/connection to God [and thereby fulfilling this mitzvah] is through “V’hayu Hadevarim Ha’ela Al Livuvecha-placing divrei torah on your heart/soul through continuous diligent study. And since one cannot possibly feel this emotion of love/connection to God while studying w/o them actually believing that this connection occurs, then obviously one requires to first be knowledgeable with the mystical essence of Torah, in order for them to then actually feel this connection, and thereby fulfill this biblical law of “V’ahavta Es Hashem Elokecha” [which is one of the primary obligations of every man and woman].
Similarly, one cannot fulfill the [emotion related] Biblical law of “L’duvku Bo” w/o him/her first being aware of mystical nature of all mitzvos, since one cannot possibly feel this actual connection/deveykus to God w/o him/her believing that it actually occurs.
And God gave us the power of abstract thinking, to be able to grasp this spiritual nature of the world and perceive it as reality, [rather than merely belief].
Lastly, there was obviously a reason why the sages compiled so many passages of aggadah together with the Talmud; since they understood that every Jew must have some familiarity with the reality of the spiritual world in order for him to properly fulfill the Nigla/revealed part of the Torah.
LMA:
The connection we have to Hashem is via Emunah & Bitachon, and that is the Mitzva of L’Davka Bo, to increase your Bitachon (see Meshech Chachma in Devarim) (heard from R’ Yaakov Freidman from Beitar).
Nothing to do with believing in mystical sources.
Which is where I am trying to get. Mitzvos are supposed to strengthen your connection to Hashem by following His will, you increase your trust in Him that He is all-powerful.
It doesn’t happen by magic (as you point out). You have to believe and cause it to happen.
But having Malachim carry/created via the mitzva has nothing to do with your personal connection to Hashem.
I personally do believe in mystical “things” happening when you do a mitzva. I’m not sure who you refer to when you say “you”.
I don’t own a TV!
I just don’t like the ignorance that has developed in the Yeshivish/Charaidi world. I actually think you and I are arguing in semantics, as your “mystical sources” is my “Note Es Haolam L’Chayim” and the concept of Tikun (I hate to use that word, makes me sound reform) in general.
P.S. When I say I would like to see it inside, that means Parsha & Dibur Hamaschil, not repeating it. If you heard it from an Adam Gadol, that is good too.
Thanks, and I am glad we can have a discussion in a civilized manner.
Not that you (LMA) are ignorant (C’V), that is just the reason why I find myself defending the left more than the right.
GAW: The literal translation of the word “Liduvka” means “connect”, in the same way the Torah uses the words “Viduvak Bi’ishto” which obviously means to literally connect spiritually.
The Torah consistently repeats this concept of deveykus; “V’atem Hadiveikim B’Hashem Elokechem Chaim Kulchem Hayom”, and one a similar note: “Ki Hashem Mis’halech Bikerev Machanecha Vihuyu Machanecha Kodosh, which also infers that God is actually present[and thereby connected] where the Jews are present. Also the famous midrash on the posuk “Vishachanti Bisocha”-Bisoch Kol Echad V’echad”, which clearly indicates that God is actually koviyochol present in the heart/soul of each Jew. I don’t think these pesukim and midrashim can be classified as mysticism; rather this is “Pishuto Shel Mikra”.
Now do delve a litter deeper into this concept; the connection to God can occur only through us first believing and then connecting ourselves emotionally with God, since God cannot feel connected to us if we don’t feel connected to him; in the same way that V’davak B’ishto only occurs if the feelings are mutual. This is what the posuk means when it says: “Ki Hashem Mis’halech B’kerev Machanecha V’huyu Machanecha Kodosh..Ervas Duvur V’shuv Mei’achrecha”; meaning that God cannot be present within the Jews if his resting place [kaviyochel] is not holy/spiritual, [just like the bais hamikdash needed to be holy for God’s presence]. This is also “Pishuto Shel Mikra”, not at all “Soid”/mystical.
After one understands that God is actually present within us [if we make spiritual room for him koviyochol within us], then we can understand that our mitzvos/torah/tefilla are our interaction with God which makes us closer to Him, in the same way that interaction between a man and his wife and doing for each other bring upon themselves more closeness.
I will agree to you that Malachim being created touches on the mystical aspect, [which wouldn’t be a bad idea to delve into a little in order to strengthen our spiritual awareness].
I don’t have a chumash in front of me so I didn’t post parsha/dibbur for the above pesukim; I apologize.
I also have issues with the Chareidi world, I’m not a blinded chareidi. However, I don’t think discussing those issues on this forum will be beneficial [since it won’t change anything] and therefore it might be considered loshin hara. I still believe that Charedim represent authentic Judaism [they just need modification in other areas]. (And I don’t know aything at all about tikun or the other book you mentioned).
Thank you for having a respectful discussion with me.
After one understands that God is actually present within us [if we make spiritual room for him koviyochol within us], then we can understand that our mitzvos/torah/tefilla are our interaction with God which makes us closer to Him, in the same way that interaction between a man and his wife and doing for each other bring upon themselves more closeness.
I like this. Just add that Bitachon is the Glue that actually creates the connection. Without Bitachon, there is no Devaykus.
Likewise, LMA.
P.S. The concept I mentioned (Note Es Haolam L’Chayim) is the idea that one mitzva has the ability to move yourself, city, country, & world to life. As per the Rambam in Hilchos Teshuva:
? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????, ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????; ??? ?? ?????, ????? ???? ?????? ????: ??? ??? ???–??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????, ???? ??? ?????; ??? ???? ???–??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????, ???? ??? ????? ?????. ?? ??? ????? “?????, ???? ????” (???? ?,??), ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????.
GAW: Agreed. Just Bitochon has an even deeper meaning when we understand this concept of connection/deveykus, since God will not hurt Himself koviyochel; and God will not part from us if we don’t forsake Him and send Him away. Gut shabbos.
SJS: I apologize that I spoke too forceful to you.
Disclaimer: I am a frum yid, who would consider themselves “yeshivish” and not MO (no t.v., no going out to movies, no secular music, black hatted men and women covering their hair/BY educated ect). Getting back to some comments that were mentioned in the previous pages: Why is it a problem for women to learn, or men to “not learn anything that questions your faith”? I know plenty of people who love to learn (including me)- leaving a question blank would seriously put a damper on my hashkafa. If I had a question on something, whatever it is, I would need to fully learn it out and solve my issue. I could never take the teacher who said “no more questions” or “next question” whenever a serious question was brought up.
By not learning to answer the question, the question still remains. How is it ok to live being a Jew with deep questions? Are we now promoting robots? Robots with no understanding except how to do the task at hand? Robots- who can’t even dream of anything except robotic sheep? (ok, had to put that one in there. =))
About a question posed even earlier- women learning torah: How can we allow them to raise children without knowing what our beautiful religion is all about? Are we promoting illiteracy in tanach? Some posters commented how it would be better for women to learn to make a decent potato kugel or other domestic skills than to learn. Wait- is a women only the sum of her potato kugels? What a generation of lame men we are bringing up here who only care about their stomachs. Can a women be prized for her personality, middos or brains? nope- only her kugel. Better to be able to iron your husband’s shirt than to be able to understand krias hatorah in shul. what kind of children will she be bringing up? Didn’t Sarah Schneirer set up the BY movement because of this exact train of thought? That women were not getting the education from Torah, so they turned to secular philosophy (socrates, plato and the like). In this generation, women need to be taught just like the men. Women need the intellectual stimulation- very few women out there would be happy just learning to cook and not learn a good pshat or a nice ramban. why else would so many women take the time out of their hectic schedules to go to shiurim, listen to tapes or pick up seforim?
😕
“every Jew must have some familiarity with the reality of the spiritual world in order for him to properly fulfill the Nigla/revealed part of the Torah”
Spiritual concepts that are in Tanach, Mishnayos and Gemara are part of the Nigla.
However, there needs to be a sequence to learning.
Chapter 11 of Sanhedrin should not be the first Torah someone learns.
There are strong reasons 8 Masechta’s (Tractates) are focused upon in the Yeshivish world. Berachos is not one of then.
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