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- This topic has 183 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Avram in MD.
December 8, 2022 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #2146100
I mean BideNeroDecember 9, 2022 1:52 am at 1:52 am #2146123
When thinking about vaccine efficacy I’m always reminded to the story poking fun at Hasidic Tzadikim:
A yid walks by a stone wall eating a ham sandwich and is seen by a Hasidic master walking with his disciples.
Years later the disciples recounted the stories of what a miracle it was. it was decreed above the stone wall should have fallen on the sinful Jew but the Hasidic master appealed and had reversed the death sentence.
Much like when I had covid after I had the shots and every masking lunatic let me know how much worse it could of been if I hadn’t had it.December 14, 2022 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #2147908
By mistake (AKA hashgaha) my finger got stuck on a radio talk show in the car, and it helped me understand where is common & other like posters getting so worked up: in five minutes, I heard Fauci/someone died from myocarditis – VACCINATED?/most dying now are unvaccinated/why didnt they test the vaccine!?/ multiple times… I give the credit where it is due – posters here at least try to have a dialog about it rather than just shouting like this guy and his callers.
The explanation for this informational virus seems simple: Trump invited a lot of working/minority voters that were former happy recipients of the “donations” that Dems took from Republicans by asking them “what do you have to lose”, etc. So, now “uneducated” are becoming a arger segment of R- votes and plenty of pols and entertainers address these voters with populist rhetoric. I don’t think it made things worse overall for the country – average citizen IQ (hopefully) did not decrease, it is just that before these people were in the lefty craziness world and I never heard them, and now they moved to the right. Democracy has it’s price, I guess …December 15, 2022 7:50 am at 7:50 am #2147941commonsaychelParticipant
@AAQ, so now i have gone from being a mazik to being uneducated? nice to know, frankly I would prefer either of those to being called a moser.
PS a Democatic Senate committee just released a report on the Covid response, and it said there was a host of mistakes that were done.December 15, 2022 11:22 am at 11:22 am #2148096
“By mistake (AKA hashgaha) my finger got stuck on a radio talk show in the car, and it helped me understand where is common & other like posters getting so worked up”
This is a nice example of an ad hominem fallacy. I don’t know if you’re lumping me in with the “worked up” posters, but I don’t listen to radio talk shows.
“The explanation for this informational virus seems simple”
Simple and wrong. But I agree that it’s fun to create broad theories with preconceived notions and little actual information while accusing your opponents of doing the same!December 15, 2022 11:56 am at 11:56 am #2148104
“Pfizer immediately publicized that and recommended boosters, and was first met with anger from Biden’s people (including Fauci) for bad politics, but then they came around to the facts.”
Not sure that the timeline bears this narrative out. Pfizer sought approval for a single booster on August 25, 2021, as the summer Delta wave was beginning to peak in the US. The FDA convened a public meeting on September 17th and approved the booster via EUA for higher risk populations by September 22, less than a month later, which is a remarkably fast turnaround time.December 15, 2022 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2148106jackkParticipant
You must have more evidence than a talk show segment that by Trump in 2016 saying to black voters “what do you have to lose”, they all became republicans.December 15, 2022 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2148182
AAQ I’m so glad we have elite educated gentlemen like yourself to be a guiding light to the working class and minorities. Please tell me how I should think as I’m not qualified to do so for myself.December 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2148217
common > so now i have gone from being a mazik to being uneducated?
Avram > but I don’t listen to radio talk shows.
has v’shalom, did not want to offend. I have traced how this info-virus was unleashed (and I am sure Chinese and Russian fake fbook accounts helped). Now, after the virus circulates, you can get it from “community transmission” (remember when first covid cases were traced to overseas thavel, and then not). So, heimishe people who would shutter if you suspect them of having a treifa phone, who speak only mama loshen – learn the “ideas” from someone who heard it from someone who received a fbook message.
And, of course, that fbook message was not a random ad, but fbook uses all internal information it has about that person to produce something that that person is most likely to accept/like/forward, or whatever you do with fbook messages.December 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2148218
common > Democatic Senate committee just released
could you summarize? I am not gonna to read thatDecember 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2148220
Avram > it’s fun to create broad theories with preconceived notions and little actual information while accusing your opponents of doing the same!
fair question, but I was really struck by similarity of messages and also by intensity. I will save you rehashing actual information, we discussed this here before. Say, “most dying now are vaccinated”. Obviously, as most, esp elderly are vaccinated, and those who were not already had virus so many times. etc. Not saying that all arguments were obviously ridiculous. Some were plausible, if you are charitable. (some athlete just died! vaccinated?! myocarditis?! ). But, when every say third argument is totally off-the-charts, it is sad.December 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2148227
Avram, your timeline sounds similar to what I recall from Bourla’s book. Delta started like June, maybe by July Israelis reported to Pfizer their findings that vaccine effectiveness against Delta falls after several months which was not the case with Wuhan covid. Then, Pfizer announced a booster idea (probably, several weeks before official request). So, Bourla says they immediately got angry responses (I do not recall now – public or private) as this seemingly did not match official line that Biden defeated the virus. But after Pfizer shared the data, gov accepted the logic. A classical case of emotional partisan reaction later over-ridden by seichel.
while on the topic, there is a feeling of total breakdown of communications under Biden. First year is full of discussions with Warp Speed, Trump calling, Kushner resolving problem with some officials. During Biden times, Bourla is stuck dealing with specific gov people with no calls to Biden or Kamala or Hunter. And it is clear who Bourla likes. Biden told him that he knows other people who lost family in the Shoah and Dr. Jill smiled at him in England …
In addition to the above, US trade rep called him at home before going public with giving away Pfizer’s IP to the “world”. Bourla argued against. Bourla’s teenage son listened to the conversation and commented afterwards: “do you realize that she called you just to check the box she talked to you, she did not care about the points you were raising”. Bourla pickup up the phone and called
Biden and resolved the question. Oops, did not happen.December 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2148229
jackk > You must have more evidence than a talk show segment that by Trump in 2016 saying to black voters “what do you have to lose”, they all became republicans.
not all. Just some. It seems to be an accepted wisdom among sociologists. Look it up.December 15, 2022 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #2148242
Lostspark > Please tell me how I should think as I’m not qualified to do so for myself.
Someone got the point! Thanks. This is exactly what I am (gently) suggesting – think for yourself. Do not rely on random opinions, including mine.December 15, 2022 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2148254
Wait. What? Think for ourselves? You torched every one of us who thought for ourselves. Even if we got advice from our doctors and. Are you sure you don’t want to walk that one back?December 15, 2022 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #2148287
Syag > You torched every one of us who thought for ourselves.
Syag, I recall I was delving into tens of references that people were posting here trying to see what those positions are about. There were other posts that took positions without much logical support. I actually asked a number of them what is the source of these opinion and generally did not get answers.December 15, 2022 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #2148290
Oh, okay. So you didn’t really mean we should think for ourselves. You meant we should make a decision that had sources that had logical support in your eyes. And when you said we were responsible for deaths following us thinking for ourselves it was only because we didn’t think for ourselves in congruence with your thoughts. Right?December 15, 2022 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #2148291
Or are you saying you never torched us, you were just delving and accidently called us bad names.
This is really confusingDecember 15, 2022 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #2148299
Syag > So you didn’t really mean we should think for ourselves. You meant we should make a decision that had sources that had logical support in your eyes
Right. Sorry for the confusion. I define “think” along this dictionary definition “using thought or rational judgment; intelligent”. If you mean “think for ourselves” as “being free to have any opinions we want”, this is not what I was talking about.
I think I quoted above a recent analysis from Yale showing higher mortality among Republican voters after introduction of the vaccine [developed under Republican president]. I don’t know whether this is a fully veritable paper, but I am not sure what “thinking” can be done ignoring such evidence.
Again, as I described, it well may be that you live in the information environment where other information sources are used to the degree that contradicting information is simply discounted.
But back to my original statement that you guys are responding. If you can provide an alternative history of your thinking on this topic, I’ll be happy to hear.December 15, 2022 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #2148312
He walked it backDecember 16, 2022 8:59 am at 8:59 am #2148450commonsaychelParticipant
@AAQ, You are totally not interested in people thinking for themselves, in fact in the 5000 times you posted I never saw you admit you were wrong, you want the people think your way period end of discuss.
PS it typical AAQ fashion you cut and pasted only part of what I wrote, so let me tell you loud and clear I would rather be called a mazik or uneducated then being call a moserDecember 16, 2022 11:16 am at 11:16 am #2148595
“But, when every say third argument is totally off-the-charts, it is sad.”
Do you think the “off-the-charts” arguments are exclusive to those critical of the pandemic response?December 16, 2022 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2148606
Being a mazik because of being uneducated is wrong. Being a moser is wrong. I was saddened to see how many shuls and other institutions flagrantly (or secretly) ignored all COVID restrictions, even at the beginning when people were literally dropping like flies, but it was even more saddening to see how many of these places were raided by the police because of a fellow yid who massered on them.
Ignorance leads a person to being a mazik. Back in the day, people refused to refrain from drinking before driving because “I can hold my liquor”. They were mazikim and caused untold amount of death and destruction to others. So too with people today who refuse to give their children proper healthcare and instead subject them and others around them to diseases like measles and whooping cough. The ignorant mazikim in question are those ignorant of how contagious diseases work and how dangerous COVID is, thus causing hezik to many around them.December 16, 2022 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2148607
On another note, going back, who is Rav Sorotzkin and Rav Dessler? The only individuals I know that bore those names passed away long ago, YBChLCh. I’m curious as to what exactly it was that they said, especially considering how it conflicted with many things I’ve heard from Rabbonim who I know and trust.December 16, 2022 11:48 am at 11:48 am #2148627
Yserbius – right now while the flus/rsv/viruses are rampant, are you masking up your kids? Are you keeping them home from school until all their symptoms are gone? If your kid/you is feeling a bit off are you staying home from work and stores? I am NOT trying to distract or divert, I am trying to get a feel for where you are at so I can respond.December 16, 2022 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #2148644
“your timeline sounds similar to what I recall from Bourla’s book.”
Given that Moonshot is a 240-page infomercial for Pfizer written by its CEO, I’m not surprised that you find it saying that Pfizer was awesome and all badness came from others.
“Delta started like June”
And Pfizer spent June touting that its vaccines would protect against Delta.
“Then, Pfizer announced a booster idea (probably, several weeks before official request). So, Bourla says they immediately got angry responses (I do not recall now – public or private) as this seemingly did not match official line that Biden defeated the virus.”
They announced that they would try and develop a new booster to specifically target Delta (would need clinical trials, etc.) and stated that they’d soon seek FDA authorization for a third shot of the original stuff, which they did in August. And they said people would need that booster around 12 months after the initial series, which Fauci/NIAID/NIH had been saying was likely since April 2021. The only evidence I could find of an “angry” response was a news article in July stating “Federal officials” said a booster wasn’t necessary yet. But by the time Pfizer actually submitted the application, the FDA approved it ridiculously fast.December 16, 2022 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2148665
@syag-lchochma Right now are people dying and getting hospitalized at the rates they were in late 2020?December 16, 2022 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #2148719
“– think for yourself. Do not rely on random opinions, including mine.“
I do not have enough time to do research on every decision I make that’s why I’m supposed to trust professionals. Professionals have taken advantage of that trust enough times that the unwashed working and uneducated masses are becoming wise to it.
No matter how many misinformation campaigns are hosted by establishment media or government agency the cat cannot go back into the bag. Experts have lost trust because they got greedy. Demean any segment of society you want, all you are exposing is the fact you are an elitist clutching what you have left in dignity.
Yale also did an interesting study on how conservatives and educated liberals interact differently with minorities in conversation. You should read that paper.December 17, 2022 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2149310
Lostspark > I do not have enough time to do research on every decision I make that’s why I’m supposed to trust professionals. Professionals have taken advantage of that trust enough times that the unwashed working and uneducated masses are becoming wise to it.
Lostspark, I am with you on that. I see 2 separate questions here: specific trust on covid, especially during early lack of information, and general trust of authorities.
On first one, I know some Rabbis who found a reliable frum public helath professional and listened and referred questions to him. For me, R Meyer Twersky’s letter sounded right – in the time of confusion, it is not enough to follow one doctor, but you need to select a safest of several opinions.
generally, I think, the problem of, especially American, medicine, is a rule-based approach. You give a pill or cut something off and the problem is solved. Nedorim ~50 bring up a doctor who refuses to treat a patient who is eating a bad diet for a sick person – a hard squash. So, you would often need to combine seichel with medical advise. For example, I was told by an observant allergologist that certain test should not be done – it will produce a long list of products to avoid without serious benefit.
At the same time, modern medicine produced undeniable benefits and the testing procedures in US are working. Many researchers complain that they are too slow and expensive delaying treatments.
So, you need to look at the data case-by-case, you can’t make overall judgment.December 17, 2022 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2149316
I do realize Bourla is presenting his side of the story, of course. The thing about such books is that the books is visible and personal, it is not a casual interview, so authors generally adhere to facts that are known publicly or to other people outside of their close circle. So, I would trust him on such facts. To his credit, for example, he brings put a couple (not much more 🙂 of favorable episodes about Trump/Kushner/Bibi, despite overall feeling that his politics is different. And he brings negative stories during Biden admin, but does not connect dots to the top…
As I said, I do not recall now whether he was attacked privately or publicly about the booster and he mentions that they turned around quickly after digesting Israeli data. I think it is a believable story illustrating a mixture of emotions and political leanings interacting with facts and responsibilities.
This story also means, exactly as you say, that before getting Israeli data, Pfizer thought that the vaccine is effective against Delta – and it partially was.December 17, 2022 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2149327
Looking back at Delta/Omicron period (Sep 21 – Feb 22) – that was the longest high-death period in US (taking 1K out of 3K per mln total covid deaths) was the time when boosters started:
US started at significant numbers in October and took it to 30% of population
Israel had 40% of population boosted by Oct 1,
UK started as slow as US but got to 60% of population, others similar or higher.
It is suggestive that slow/lack of boosters contributed to higher mortality during this period, but not a clear proof: UK had peaks before that could have contributed to immunity, some other countries – Poland, Hungary also had peaks (but much shorter ones).December 28, 2022 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2152218
FYI – Currently there is a spike of Omicron XBB variant with high reinfections, especially those who had pre-omicron virus or vaccine.
Figure 1 in paper below shows antibody response from different vaccines to different strains 15 to 40 days after vaccination. One old booster was somewhat effective to previous BA.x and BQ.x strains but not to XBB. Two old ones and one new bivalent booster still effective for XBB.
Neutralization against BA.2.75.2, BQ.1.1, and XBB from mRNA Bivalent Booster
letter to NEJM December 21, 2022 DOI: 10.1056/NEJMc2214293January 3, 2023 8:24 am at 8:24 am #2153494n0mesorahParticipant
The OP started with this line:
“There is no question that there was major repercussions to the lockdown, ”
And leads to a question of amnesty. This assumes some New information was uncovered by having lived through the lockdown that was unknowable before.
But in reality, all of these effects were known and obvious before any lockdowns were implemented. Not only that, but it has been considered part of the policy question for decades. A lockdown is an extreme measure and comes with a significant price.
Also in reality, viruses are good at wiping out civilizations. The cost of ignoring an outbreak is much higher than any single lockdown. Which leads to a whole different question. There is a modern opinion that lockdowns are not the way to go anymore. But I have found nobody who has switched sides on this topic because of Covid.
The thread revolves around that maybe people in charge should have guessed at the outcomes of the lockdown. And that we are worse off because of the lockdown. Being that the powers that were knew all to well that society would be severely impacted, Your offer of amnesty is very generous. But still your perception of tough realities is even more generous.
Maybe we could all be generous enough to drop the topic.January 3, 2023 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #2153615
“Also in reality, viruses are good at wiping out civilizations.”
I don’t think anyone held that Covid would wipe out civilization.
“The cost of ignoring an outbreak is much higher than any single lockdown.”
False dilemma fallacy.
“Maybe we could all be generous enough to drop the topic.”
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