Pandemic amnesty

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  • #2138609

    Re: shuls that “did not enforce rules”

    I am thinking there is a difference:
    at one extreme: rules are very conservative (masks outside), most people follow them, and easy to avoid rule-breakers (big shul, ventilation or open windows, part marked for masks, etc).

    at another extreme: rules are written up for the health department, most people do not follow them and no consideration given to elderly, etc (small hall, closed windows)

    #2138671
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, my guess is the Rav Heineman has a following of 800 people, Rabbi Billet has a following of 500 people that leaves you about about 1 M who have other daas torah, and who gives these two rabbonim the right to dictate the way for other rabbonim to run the kehillas?

    We are still paying the price for being overprotective both internaly and the world at large, the state that reopened the quickest had the quickest economic recovery, and yeshivas who had a quick reopening in spite of the despot Cuomo had almost no gap in the childrens learning.

    #2138689
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @common-saychel

    You seem to be unaware of who Rav Heineman SHLITA is if you think he has a following of 800 people. Besides, “his” pandemic decisions were the unanimous decisions of virtually all of the several dozen Rabbonim in his community.

    #2138874

    common, If you have your own – so far unnamed – posek, follow him, gezunte heig (sic!).

    I brought R Heineman to show that such positions are legitimate. I am somewhat flabbergasted that you dismiss the Rav this way. Next, you will say that Chaim Volozhin had only 400 students, R Akiva ended up with only 5, and Rashbi was OOT homeschooling his son…

    #2139055
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, I am not about to have this thread hijacked with my rav is bigger then your rav etc.
    But lets be frank Aguda of Balitmore has how many members? hardly a powerhouse, his opinion outside of Balitmore has minimal impact and for the record some shuls in balitmore open every early in the pandemic in spite of a huge political cost.
    My big issue is the hubris of people telling others on how to run their lives, shuls, yeshivas.

    #2139263
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “Besides, “his” pandemic decisions were the unanimous decisions of virtually all of the several dozen Rabbonim in his community.”

    Unanimous and “virtually all” are not the same thing.

    #2139432
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @common-saychel @Avram-in-MD Virtually all of the Rabbonim were part of the decision, and their vote was unanimous. I think those that were not involved were places that don’t follow them anyway, like the two Open Orthodox rabbis, or the one Chassidish place. This isn’t just the Agudah, this is pretty much the entire frum community of Baltimore. We’re talking hundreds of thousands of Yidden. And it influenced many other places, including a large percentage of the New York and Lakewood shuls. The earliest Baltimore places opened was Elul of 2020 and every shul had masks and social distancing for at least the first few months.

    #2139520
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @yserbius123, at the risk of sounding like a chauvinistic new yorker, go daven shows a grand total of 35 shuls in the greater Baltimore Area, hardly 100s of 1000s. Baltimore has no influence in Lakewood or NY with the expectation of Pride of the Farm Ice Cream. about half of Lakewood reopened by Shevous and didn’t give a hoot about what someone in Baltimore, Miami or LA thinks, goes without saying that most of Brooklyn pretty much ignored whatever outsider’s opinions were.

    #2139690

    common, repeating, I only wanted to show that the careful position has serious Rabbis behind it. So, you can’t call people names for holding by it. R Heineman was answering shailohs that someone asked hi, he did not call for people to storm Lakewood. Continuing saying that you and your chevrah “do not give a hoot” to opinions of other Rabbis just underscore the sad picture of where are communities are.

    #2139827
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, please don’t take my words out of context, in fact you said on a number of occasions that you dont belive in daas torah or that one should ask a rav, what I said is that I ask my rav and I follow him, I think is way over the top for a Rav to tell another Rav how and what to do, I dont care if its Black hat like Rav Heinmann, MO like Rabbi Billet or the Pupa Rebbe, and yes when you had Rabbis and lay people terrorizing people who felt differently they the did on Covid, these people need to ask mechila in a public setting

    #2140035
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @commonsaychel There are probably about a hundred thousand frum Yidden in Baltimore who are members of shuls that followed the psak of the Va’ad HaRabbonim. Unlike New York and Lakewood, it was a unified front of the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivos of Baltimore putting out very clear piskei halacho and guidelines about COVID. Because of that, many shuls outside of Baltimore in smaller affiliated communities followed it too. There are plenty of Rabbonim in New York and Lakewood that took the psak and actions of the Baltimore community to heart. About half of Lakewood reopened Shavuous, but many more did not. And of those that didn’t, many kept closed because they listened to the Baltimore Va’ad. That is all.

    #2140055
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “So, you can’t call people names for holding by it.”

    What names did he call people who held by “being careful”?

    #2140440

    Avram, see the starting post, where common demands accountability for covid protection measures. He possibly modified his position now to only blame those who “terrorize people in other communities”, which is a welcome adjustment.

    #2140441

    Common,
    I said that before that I am in a pickle regarding daas Torah – the Rav I ask such questions, told me long time ago that there is no “daas Torah”. So, I am following DT in not following it. And if I were to follow DT, I would be in violation of DT _and_ show disrespect to my teacher, which is mefurash b’ Gemoro. But, anyway, the question on DT was for you, not for me.

    #2140468
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AQ, I still stand by what I said, FYI I was not the one who brought up covid amnesty, It was some college prof, in a magazine and quickly pick up by the UFT who did not want held accounable for the actions, I still think there should be a full accountabilty across the board for the Covid rules and reg.
    Now how does that add up to this? “SO, YOU CAN’T CALL PEOPLE NAMES FOR HOLDING BY IT.”
    When did I call anyone names?

    #2140566

    Common, apologize, I took your accountability mention as a fighting word rather than direct meaning. So, let’s do accountability in earnest. What are your estimates of lives lost and what balances it in different places?

    #2141332
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    about 1 Millon lives were lost in the US and about half were caused by covid rules, ie hostpital neglect, nursing home deaths etc, fyi I never called anyone names while I saw a everything from a rotzach to a mechallel hashem for suggesting the rules went overboard, and everyone should do what they feel is best.

    #2141443
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @common-saychel That’s a terribly dishonest way of putting things. The people that died because of COVID rules still died from untreated COVID due to overcrowding hospitals, etc. The reason they died was because of how poorly understood the situation was initially. Which only goes to show how important it was that people followed at least the basic COVID precautions, like wearing masks in public not going to crowded indoor places, or staying away from people when you felt sick.

    #2141476
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @yserbius123, actually it’s a very honest and factual way of putting things, My FIL and my BILs father were both hospitalized with moderate covid symptoms, and both came out in worse shape than the way they went in, both have stories of terrible neglect, not getting food, care etc.
    Nursing home operators let people die, i had people from chavra kaddisha tell me what filth the people died in.
    Yes, we need a full accounting, including the dismal drop in test scores, killing the economy and people, all for the sake of a silly piece of cloth that never helped anyway.

    #2141493
    jackk
    Participant

    Common Saychel,

    I am sorry that this a bit lengthy.

    First of all , everyone in the CR was alive during covid and we all have first hand experiences of family and friends that suffered terribly from covid. Some of us suffered ourselves from covid and thought we were ready to go to the next world.

    Some of us still have family and friends that have not yet fully recovered from the ravages that covid did to their bodies.

    Second, I would not trade the zechusim that Klal Yisrael gained during Covid through trusting in Hashem, listening to their Rabbanim and Medical professionals, and being moser nefesh for normal daily Jewish activities. All the talmidim and talmidos that were moser nefesh to continue learning over the phone is a tremendous zechus.

    Third, as we all experienced , everything was different during covid than during normal times. The hospitals and medical community were overloaded by the amount of people that needed urgent medical care. There were medical professionals (Nurses, Doctors, Hospital WORKERS ) who DIED due to covid exposure. There were nursing home WORKERS who DIED due to covid exposure.

    Before there were vaccines, the medical community was still trying to figure out how to treat it.

    Everyone was deathly afraid of the virus.
    One of the miracles that I heard of is that even though Hatzalah transported thousands of covid patients, none of the Hatzalah members got sick due to their exposure.

    I agree that there should be a auditing of what went on during covid. But because we know more about covid now, it is too easy to look back and second guess people for their errors and inactions done while the pandemic was raging.

    Rabbi Reisman shlita told of 2 amazing stories that occurred due to the camp that he made in New Hampshire during covid. One was a baby born after many years and a second was a marriage after many years.
    He said that he sent a few people to check out the camp before the summer and they all said it was not possible to open. It needed a lot of work and was too far away from Jewish areas.
    Only one person answered him that it might be possible. He told that one person. “OK, me and you are going to open a camp.”
    Due to the camp, hundreds of bochurim were able to learn with menuchas hanefesh.

    #2141563
    Lostspark
    Participant

    If there is Covid amnesty for the liberal cathedral there should equal Jan 6th amnesty for the right wing populists. Nobody will cede any ground hence the situation we are all in here in America.

    #2141714
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    A majority of Americans dying from the coronavirus received at least the primary series of the vaccine.
    Fifty-eight percent of coronavirus deaths in August were people who were vaccinated or boosted, according to an analysis conducted for The Health 202 by Cynthia Cox, vice president at the Kaiser Family Foundation.

    It’s a continuation of a troubling trend that has emerged over the past year. As vaccination rates have increased and new variants appeared, the share of deaths of people who were vaccinated has been steadily rising. In September 2021, vaccinated people made up just 23 percent of coronavirus fatalities. In January and February this year, it was up to 42 percent, per our colleagues Fenit Nirappil and Dan Keating.

    “We can no longer say this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated,” Cox told The Health 202.

    #2141729
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @commonsaychel I don’t understand your logic. Hundreds of thousands of people died because of COVID which was made worse because of the huge initial wave and lack of knowledge as to how to treat it, and you’re saying that somehow we should have made that wave bigger and allowed more people to catch the virus by not locking down?

    #2141758
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Nope. He definitely didn’t say that

    #2141783
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @SyagLchochma Point out to me where he didn’t say that.

    #2141797
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    😄😄 point to where he didn’t say it? Somewhere between your visual cortex and your ego.

    #2141798
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    what I am saying is that we should give the same scrutiny to the decsions that were made that were bad the same way we do to anything else, not give a blanket pass saying they meant well.

    #2141833
    jackk
    Participant

    CS,

    I will quote the end of the article for you.

    “Being unvaccinated is still a major risk factor for dying from covid-19. But efficacy wanes over time, and an analysis out last week from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention highlights the need to get regular booster shots to keep one’s risk of death from the coronavirus low, especially for the elderly.

    Anthony Fauci, the nation’s preeminent infectious-disease expert, used his last White House briefing yesterday ahead of his December retirement to urge Americans to get the recently authorized omicron-specific boosters.

    “The final message I give you from this podium is that please, for your own safety, for that of your family, get your updated covid-19 shot as soon as you’re eligible,” he said.

    #2141843
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Jack, you really shouldn’t make unsupported sweeping statements. I know at least 1 Hatzala person who contracted covid by treating/transporting a covid patient. The person who transported me. I’m sure there were others.

    By the way, how would you handle Andrew Cuimo? One of his biggest financial supporters was the Greater NY Hospital Association ( GNYHA ). They are the primary lobbyist for Downstate voluntary not for profit hospitals . The hospitals were filling up with covid patients who couldn’t be discharged. The problem? Hospitals don’t get paid by the day, but by the discharge so, as long as the beds stayed occupied, hospitals couldn’t bill n or admit new patients . The GNYHA came up with a solution. Prevail upon Cuomo to force nursing homes to accept the patients as transfers, whether they had covid or not. Despite protests that they weren’t set up for it and that their residents would be at great risk, Cuomo made it happen.
    To noone’s great surprise, thousands of unnecessary deaths ensued

    #2141862
    jackk
    Participant

    Anonymous ,

    Everyone in America (and it is almost exclusive to America ) knows that Hospitals, Urgent Cares, Ambulances, Health Insurers, Drug and Vaccine Manufacturers, etc… are ALL BUSINESSES and they all constantly have money as their main goal.

    It was that way before Covid, during Covid and after Covid.
    Every decision that is made in a hospital has a monetary motive.

    If you think that they went to Cuomo and said “We need to make more money so lets force nursing homes to accept the dying patients”, I have a bridge to sell you.

    #2141931

    I don’t recall whether I told this story before. There was a gentleman in a nursing home in Ohio who did not have a family and was reasonably healthy. He watched when Covid started the building divided into with/without covid and gradually the covid part was increasing with more people seriously sick … he was first trying to make personnel to be more careful, but then switched to extreme measures. He would let only nurses he trusted into his room. One guy came “just to take his temperature”, so he called the manager to get the guy out … when things became even worse, he simply sealed his room leaving an opening for food and slept with open windows … They had to convince him to open the door when the vaccine came … all of that to confirm the Gemora that hakol b’yaday shamayim except cold and heat …

    #2141986
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, I don’t recall if I told this story before, it was before peasch of 2021 and I was shopping at a grocery store and a random stranger walks up to me and says wheres your mask, so I tell him how about minding your own business, so he starts yelling, so I asked him how many times he donated covid plasma I donated 8 times, he started sceaming I got the shot and turns to his wife and said ayzho chutzpan, so I told him asee le tovah stum et ha peh.

    #2141993
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I’m sure the guy wasn’t a hate filled hypocrite, he most definitely held his breath thru the whole exchange. Because I know that if someone is a potential danger to me the last thing I do is enter his dated Amos.
    Total fakers and hateful scam artists.

    #2142080
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Jack, while I’m not interested in bridges, you’re being naive. The nursing homes had patients who, by definition, had low resistance to infections. They weren’t set up to isolate their patients from the covid patients. They begged the NYS Dept of Health for prep time. Instead, the DOH, under pressure from the GNYHA, issued a March 26 directive that not only mandated that the transfers be accepted, the homes were forbidden to administer covid tests prior to admission. The directive was rescinded in May but the damage had been done.

    #2142101

    common, was this when your state had indoor business mask mandate?

    #2142106
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Nice attempt to lose the point.
    Bottom line, if he really believed commonsense was a danger, he wouldn’t have approached him. Fakers and hypocrites.

    #2142176
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, I dont remember if the state did or did not and even more so totally and absolutely irrelevant, he was a customer same as I was, this sanctimonious moron did not stand in the parking lot yelling at people to buckle up in spite of being a state law.

    PS after the third time of him giving me his unsolicited opinion I told him what he can to with both his mask and opinion.

    #2142181

    common, if you were doing it in violation of state low, then the irony of you complaining about someone else’s behavior is too much here …

    but let’s ask the serious question – what is halakha when 2 people have different opinions and need to act together. Say, you invite me to your house and your food is perfectly kosher by you, but I hold by some chumros. Would you feed me the food according to your standard or mine?!

    another way to look at this: you treat the person according to what he needs/wants. If you like to tell funny good-natured jokes, but you know someone is a sensitive person and will get offended – then, you do not tell him the joke. You do not say – my jokes are good, and he had to deal with it … Similarly, we support a poor person according to his former standard (if we can). Same thing here, you have a person who is afraid of something – why would you not accommodate him just because you have some machlokes with the government. Just show some chesed.

    #2142182
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I was in the library yesterday and I heard a lady say. “Chani, how are you? You were out yesterday and today weren’t you?”
    Chani said, “yes, I have strep”
    I have a very new grandchild and strep can be dangerous so guess what I did? I made sure NOT to go anywhere near her. Because that’s what you do when you actually believe someone could be contagious and could harm you.
    Actions speak louder than words.

    #2142191

    Syag, you are right. and mazal tov. I am not sure what is the point discussing the person who went mishugene and about whose existence we know second-hand. At the same time, we have here a sensible person admitting to his behavior …

    there is also a difference between you meeting one person with strep who is also not expecting to meet someone who is vulnerable and a pandemic situation where everyone is surrounded by potential dangers. Just put yourself in the shoes of someone who might be vulnerable, and then he needs to go to the store, and people around do not do a simple thing, required by law (NY store mandate was lifted Feb 2022).

    To use your analogy, say, I know I had exposure to strep and I see a little baby in the library. I am going to avoid that baby or where a mask if I need to pass by.

    #2142202
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I didn’t bring the baby to the library and no, there is no difference between worrying about exposure and worrying about exposure. If the man really and honestly believed commonsense posed a danger he would have kept his distance. But he didn’t. Why didn’t he? Because he wasn’t really worried about covid, he just wanted to be a baal machlokes. How do we know this? Because if he really believed that an unmasked man posed a danger he would have run in the other direction. He was just a baal machlokes.

    #2142204
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Side point- if you had strep and went out with a mask, I still wouldn’t let you near me because masks were proven to be useless.

    #2142236
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, very different scenarios, your talking about if I invite someone to MY house and if I should go the extra mile to make him happy.
    Here are three closer scenarios, a total stranger approaching children riding bikes yelling at them to wear helments, someone walking up and down the sidewalk telling people to cross the street at the light because jaywalking is illegal, someone stopping cars in the parking lot reminding people to buckle up, here are some examples of someone just being civic minded after all they were in violation of state law.

    #2142248
    Lostspark
    Participant

    Common I have a similar story: my wife was in the grocery store and she was wearing a mask, while my three year old was not. This was a little after the merciful overlords told lifted the ban. A purple haired troll of a woman yelled at my wife and daughter telling my terrified daughter her mother was a bad person while filming them both telling them it was going on YouTube.

    My wife tried to remain calm but eventually went for the jugular and told the nut job that just because no one didn’t want to have children with her doesn’t mean she has the right to raise other peoples children.

    My daughter is still weary of masked people now, I think that will serve her well in life.

    #2142391

    Common, you are focusing on apparently one person who attacked you for not wearing mask. Think about probably hundreds of people that you encountered while being a mazik. Most of these dignified people walked around you (and possibly murmured something anti-Semitic). This still does not explain why you were behaving this way..

    #2142399
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Even more chilling, I was reading from a book called “The End Illuminated” by Rabbi Sortzkin. He brings a few paragraphs about how during covid the people who focused on pointing fingers at world leaders, doctors and politicians. “How critical were we of those whom we felt were too lax about safety measures? How much did we rely on those protective measures?”
    He then continues in this vein regarding the vaccine being met with flaming rhetoric. He quotes rav Dessler in saying that this display is “kochi votzem yadi” and is the main characteristic of the eruv rav.
    If that doesn’t shake you into making some changes I don’t know what will.

    #2142406

    Syag,
    your quote is not fully clear to me, but I found a couple of quotes from R Yisroel Moshe Sorotzkin online, very interesting, thanks. I am with you (and him) that Covid was (is?) an unusual punishment that has serious messages to us – especially when people were isolated, public institutions closed…

    so far, I do not see public reaction that answers this message.

    One type of reaction is to ignore the restrictions and continue “as usual”. This seems to ignore the message R Sorotzkin underscores. “Thanks for your message, Hashem, we are going as usual”.

    Another approach from some – to double-down, increase learning, better davening, increase outreach, etc. This is very respectable approach, but I am not sure it is still responsive to the message. It is like when Hashem is punishing mitzrim with blood in the water – they respond with more blood … If Hashem closed all shuls, did he davka want them to daven louder?! I presume he wanted a qualitative change.

    The approach that resonated with me was the one that Yidden should look with a fresh eye at their family, strengthen their connection, sometimes learn how to live – and to learn – with your family members, who you used to see for only 2 hours a day; strengthen connection to your friends, making sure they are OK; consider safety of others, including strangers. This last part sounds like a most profound religious message – you may unknowingly harm someone, whether a close elderly relative or a totally unknown person, via a routine interaction. Many people would be willing to do this in limited case, say when visiting a hospital, but being careful on a daily basis seems to be too much for most of population.

    #2142409
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Here, let’s try again without your summation, reinterpretation and denial. Are you ready to accept from someone much greater than you how wrong your behavior was?

    Here you go.

    “He brings a few paragraphs about how during covid the people who focused on pointing fingers at world leaders, doctors and politicians. “How critical were we of those whom we felt were too lax about safety measures? How much did we rely on those protective measures?””
    He quotes rav Dessler in saying that this display is “kochi votzem yadi” and is the main characteristic of the eruv rav.

    #2142411

    you would need to expand on what he is actually saying for me to understand this intriguing quote.

    what is it about vaccine met with “flaming rhetoric” – by whom, flaming which way. given that the whole world is flaming one way or the other, I am not sure what is he saying.

    #2142413
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Cute. I deliberately left that out of the recap to prevent you from getting distracted by it. Here it is again. Not too confusing.
    “He brings a few paragraphs about how during covid the people who focused on pointing fingers at world leaders, doctors and politicians. “How critical were we of those whom we felt were too lax about safety measures? How much did we rely on those protective measures?””
    He quotes rav Dessler in saying that this display is “kochi votzem yadi” and is the main characteristic of the eruv rav.

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