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Why do so many singles these days depend on solely on their mothers to make their dating decisions and reference calls? Or let alone communicate with shadchanim?
Why won’t they do any of that for themselves?When Rav Gifter was a bochur, he dated without having his mother call up all of his then-future rebbetzin’s references.
What is so different about today’s דור of singles?Why is it so hard for singles to leave their parents out of the picture until after the third date?
Why is it so hard to have shadchanim solely communicate with singles, and not communicate with parents until it is time for the vort?
The Chasam Sofer said that it is better to have a girl than a boy. We cannot ensure that he becomes a talmid chacham but we can ensure that she marries a talmid chacham.
It has always been the Yiddishe way, for millennium, for the parents to make the shidduch decisions.
The kids making these decisions, to the extent it even happens (hopefully not too extensive), is a purely American thing without precedent in Jewish history.
Of course the boy and girl must agree to marry each other, that’s always been the case, but virtually everything up to that point always has, and should, go through the parents and shadchanim.
It’s more efficient.
simple; parents have 20 + years of real life experience , hopefully are not distracted by minor flaws..
shidduchim is a learning curve ..paert of the process is hoping for … and than slowly being more open and accepting .. as u are of yourself despite your weaknesses..
of course parents need to know their child & avoid their own agendas…
IN EACH SHIDDUCH AT LEAST 6 PEOPLE NEED TO AGREE so its a miracle when anyone gets engaged@meir, technically they can elope and pay for the own wedding but that is never going to happen
If your parents are not as efficient as you are, then by all means, speak to shadchanim directly. I spoke directly with shadchanim in addition to my parents doing their thing, and they were much more efficient than I was.
@ari there is a yiddish expression ver hut der mayer hut der dayah, in other words the one who holds the purse strings calls the shots, unless the single is ready to pay for the entire wedding he/she is best off keeping quiet.
When I was dating I was getting suggested to way too many more people than I had the time to look into. My parents had in mind what they were looking for in a daughter in law so it was in my best interest to let them do the research first to filter out every one that they didn’t want me to marry anyway and then see what the research showed on the rest.
My Mom enjoyed calling all the references and shmoozing with them for hours on end while my father was able to ask brilliantly worded questions to sniff out the lying shadchanim- two talents that I wasn’t blessed with.
Eventually, after too many disasters, we all realized that I wasn’t going to meet my bashert through a shadchan and stopped taking names from them to focus on suggestions from friends and relatives. The next person I went out was my wife.
The story of Rabbi Akiva’s marriage in the Gemara is a lesson that parents need not be involved in shidduchim and should certainly not use the threat of withholding monetary support to try and control who their children marry.
follick2, You’re declaring that 3,000+ years of how our Yiddishe Zaidas and Bubbes made shidduchim, starting from Avrohom Avinu for Yitzchok Avinu all the way through European Ashkenaz, Eretz Yisroel, the Sefardic communities, Teimanim as well as all sectors of Klal Yisroel all got it wrong and, finally, after 3,000 years you figured out the right way to change things?
@frolick2 Try peddling that to the kollel crowd who demand x years of support from the shver, but we are getting off subject.
The Kallah’s family providing the Choson a dowry is a very strong Yiddishe minhag from ancient times through modern times that is well established and proper.
You asked “Why are singles so lazy?”
When I was dating I was also in Yeshiva full time, going to college part time and teaching part time as well. You’re entitled to your opinion but most people wouldn’t consider my schedule at the time (or the schedule of any serious Yeshiva guy) as “so lazy”.
If you apply for a corporate job, chances are the supervisor will have a Human Resources representative vet your application before taking a look at it. Are you going to ask why the hiring manager is so lazy that he / she needs to have HR do the background checks?
The obvious answer is that the supervisors time could be worth over $150 per hour and he / she doesn’t have the proper training and tools to do adequate background checks. The HR representative, on the other hand is probably making less than $60 per hour and has the training and skills to do background checks.
So to answer your question- when I was in Yeshiva I didn’t have the time or skills necessary to do the required background checks for the multitude number of names I was getting on a regular basis. My parents, on the other hand, did. We worked hand in hand to filter out the majority of names that weren’t relevant and saved lots of time and aggravation that way.
The system is far from perfect and everyone needs to do what works best for them. If it bothers you when someone has their parents doing the research- don’t go out with them.
Some benefits of doing it this way is that when you’re going out you won’t have other people in mind and if you do have to end the date you don’t have to worry about the shadchan criticizing you or harassing you to give it another chance.
Ari: Because then you might become smitten with infatuation before finding out the match is inappropriate due to background reasons.
My answer to your question (regardless of whether you agree with me or not) is that just because someone doesn’t do something- it doesn’t mean that they’re extremely lazy. I had my parents do the research because I didn’t have the time and they were able to do a better job at it.
You seem to be stuck on your opinion that anyone who doesn’t do their own research is extremely lazy so I brought in a different scenario regarding the hiring manager who has HR do the research because they can do it better, faster and more efficiently.
Let me ask you some questions-
Do you bring your garbage to the city dump or do you let the sanitation department pick it up?
Do you pick up your mail from the Post Office or do you have the USPS deliver it?
Does that mean that your extremely lazy or that you let them do it because it saves you time and money?
Even if they were extremely lazy why does that bother you- just don’t go out with them?
I’m going to assume that you were being sarcastic in your last post but in case you weren’t I’ll give you a serious response.
While I was dating I was learning in an out of town Yeshiva. Except in the rare situation where I was dating someone local a typical date cost me around $150 and took up around 36 hours of my time. Far more than the one hour (or many times a mere few minutes) that it took for my parents to do the research and determine that someone wasn’t for me.
Also, from a בן אדם לחברו point of view- I thought it was extremely unfair when someone said no to me and gave a reason that they could have easily inquired and found out before the first date.
I can’t fathom the עונש in the next world for someone who does this on a regular basis and causes avoidable hurt feelings to people at such a sensitive time in their life.
Excuse me for saying this but you seem to be bitter about something and unable to see this from another point of view. If you’re willing to have a respectful dialogue I’m willing to try to show you another point of view- which you may or may not agree with. I’m going to end this discussion with this post if you purposely miss the point I’m trying to make and respond with insults.
In general the tasks that someone needs to take care of in life (regardless of the importance) can be broken into the following categories:
1) Tasks the person completes themselves,
2) Tasks that others can complete for the person more efficiently:
a) Tasks where the person has an interest in how the other person completes the task
b) Tasks where the person has no interest in how the other person completes the task as long as it’s completed.I was not implying that dating and marriage are equated with taking out the garbage. I was trying to show you that just because someone doesn’t do something it doesn’t mean that they’re lazy.
As I said before and I’ll say it again- I let my parents do the research because they had more time, they had more worldly experience and thus could do better research than I could have done. Once they completed the research and gave me the green light I sat down and discussed the results of their research and usually had some additional questions or did some research myself.
The things that my mother can do better than me (e.g. picking out gowns for my daughters to wear at a cousins wedding)- I’m happy to have my mother and wife discuss it together and leave me out of it.
When I was dating I wasn’t fully aware of the amount of disfunction that went on within our community- my parents were. My mother knew the right questions to ask (something I would not have known how to do) and when my mother sensed deception in the conversation she would have my father take over and strategically ask innocent questions to see if the reference would trip up (again- something that I would not have been able to do).
(In one particular case my mother asked a reference if there’s anything else she needs to know about the family and was told that there’s been a long standing feud and Din Torah between them and another family- but it was 1,000% the fault of the other family and 0% the fault of the family in question. She then provided the name of the Av Bais Din who was handling the case. My father called the Av Bais Din who claimed that the family in question was totally innocent and the other family was totally full of sheker. My father steered the conversation elsewhere and can back a few minutes later by saying- “So it seems like both are ehrlech families but they had a dispute so they brought it to Bais Din, is that correct?”. The Av Bais Din answered, “Yes, they’re both ehrlich families but one’s milchig and one’s fleishig so they’re ok by themselves but they’re both ruined when they’re together”. When informed of this blunder the person admitted that he wasn’t even on the Bais Din but was a dayan on a different Bais Din and familiar with the case since they’re family friends.)
With all due respect to my parents- the decisions that I feel that I can do just fine on my own (e.g. choosing a shul that I’m comfortable in, deciding what to learn with my chavrusa…)- I decide on my own.
If someone C”V needed surgery would you suggest they do it themselves because it’s very important or would they go to someone who’s trained in that area and can do the operation as best as possible?
Dr. Pepper, I must say that, firstly, your most recent comment is absolutely on target, appropriate and correct. But more pointedly I I feel compelled to note that this comment is the strongest, sharpest and most stinging comment I’ve ever seen you post in all your 13+ years of posting to this site — and I’ve certainly read the vast majority of what you’ve written here.
Again, justifiably so.
Are you serious or is this and April Fools joke?
Dr. Pepper, you are the kindest, most gentle, sensitive and thoughtful poster on this forum. By a wide margin. That’s without even speaking of your superior intelligence. (No offense intended towards squeak.) I’m very confident that telling a poster that he’s bitter (or worse) isn’t something you’ve previously directly said to anyone here. And doubtlessly you’ve had ample opportunities in the well over a decade you’ve graced us with your special presence.
If I’m wrong about the above I’ll eat my words. But I know that I am not.
All that said, addressing a person’s bitterness isn’t necessarily a negative. Indeed it can be helpful in assisting your interlocutor address that very issue that you’ve identified to him. Also note that while it was strong and sharp comparative to your previous comments, in the grand scheme of conversations it certainly was far from being a harsh comment. I merely noticed that it was outside the typical tone of a comment coming from yourself.
Ah Gut Shabbos and ah Gutten Chodesh!
For a shidduch where the choson/kalah are in their late teens/early 20s, it may be appropriate for the parents to assist in the search process. As they get older and more emotionally/economically secure the parents would become less involved. For young men and women in their late 20s/30s, presumably they would take the lead in the search for their beschert, while perhaps seeking their parents’ opinions of their own choices.
My two cents
I have no hesitation about parents being involved and conducting the research. As a structure, that’s fine. However, I must emphasize that this investigation often focuses on trivia, and often produces heaps of bias and frank lies, rendering all the efforts meaningless. And unless the boy and girl themselves have amazing people skills and midos with a hefty dash of Syatta Dishmaya, we have created a potential divorce with its fallout.
Just what questions are being asked? How about useless ones like, “Tell me about the boy’s or girl’s personality.” Or “What levush does he wear?” “Why did he/she go to that camp?” Or another favorite joke, “Does he plan to sit and learn?” After answers to such questions, we know nothing that addresses preparation for marriage, or we have pat answers that are uninformative or plainly dishonest.
Do we know how either party deals with adversity or challenge? Are they groomed for lives of dependency, as our kollel system preaches? Do the kids have a spiritual connection or are they just robots with compliance to the community and a helping of chumros to impress others? Do they resolve conflict, or are they apt to find petty disagreements as threats to their dignioty or sense of control?
It is often that a boy or girl have life goals that differ greatly from the parents’ aspirations. Even with proper research, we are set up for conflict and trouble. No, I don’t believe kids generally do good research. But parents are not a whole lot better. The divorce rate in our community has jumped much higher than it’s ever been. One of many reasons is the dearth of accuracy in information available to the two sides. And without a huge amount of Syatta Dishmaya, it would probably be a lot higher.
Thanks for your kind words. I definitely wasn’t trying to hurt anyone, I was hoping @AriHaleviRosman would realize that he is bitter about something and set his hurt feelings aside for a moment just to look at the other side.
If you’ve been reading my posts for over a decade you probably know that squeak wouldn’t be offended as he’s a genius and his intelligence is far superior than mine. He is very modest about it and claimed that he had a team of Polish cryptographers break my cipher while in actuality he did it in his head.
After he bestowed upon me all of his designations for solving his riddle with the monkeys and coconuts I was so honored that I made a Kiddush in Shul (to be transparent about the Kiddush I did have a girl born that week as well).
We need to get him back to the Coffee Room, it’s been way too long since I last conversed with him here.
The divorce rate in Frum communities where the parents are less (or not) involved in the Shidduch research and selection is significantly higher than in the communities where the parents are more involved.
re: superficial questions. They might be useful given the large number of potential candidates available with current mobility. Why not limit the candidates to those who eat or not gebrochts, daven same nusach, vote the same way, pine for the same team, and squeeze the proverbial toothpaste from the same side. After reducing the friction, parents can consider other more important factors after that or leave it to the youngeles themselves.
That said, here is some useful advice I heard:
– from a Rosh kollel: “I asked only one question – are the parents honest in business”. Of course, this might be too humble. It leaves unsaid that he expected the family to have a business and probably multitude of other things that a Rosh Kolllel may take for granted
– from a Lakewood Rebbetzin: she inquired with families where the hasan was paying attention and good with their children, and she went to his shul to see how seriously he is davening. (This was not for her children’s shidduch, but for her own).I don’t recall the name of the Rov who guided parents to assess whether the prospective mechutanim were the kind of people one might be able to handle a gett with. If yes, they could be suitable mechutanim who would get along with them.
AAQ: You listed issues that are of really dubious value as superficial matters that can be used to knock names off the list, such as nusach, politics, sports, gebrokts, etc. I hope you were injecting a drop of humor here. I need to say that because I have seen otherwise great shidduchim bypassed irresponsibly with these trivia as the breakers. Conversely, I have seen shidduchim where these factors all matched that became disastrous, ending up in bitter, highly contested divorces.
“I don’t recall the name of the Rov”
Rabbi Steven Pruzansky.
Dealing with the prospect of a get before even getting married is a recipe for disposable marriages that are more common the more modern one becomes
Ari, I notice the vast majority of your post are shidduch related, and reason for that?
Ari why not post your shidduch resume or a link to it? Or tell us a bit about yourself, what you do for a living, your aspirations of a torah true home, will you work after marriage or expect support?
Is it OK if the boy’s mother to inquire how much of a dowry the girl’s family is prepared to offer for the privilege of having them as in-laws?? Auctioning off your son to the highest bidder sounds like a game plan. Starting bid of a donkey, two goats and a 2 BR condo in BP or Willy??
It seems like your issue is not who’s asking the questions per se, rather the poor quality/ relevance of the questions being asked.
Would you have been just as bothered if it was the boys themselves who asked the questions and then threw out the shidduch before going on a first date?
When it first happened to me I was disappointed until I realized the silver lining- why would I want to have to deal with a family like that anyway?
Avira > Dealing with the prospect of a get before even getting married is a recipe for disposable marriages
I deduce your wife’s kesuba did not include financial stipulations?
TLIK > You listed issues that are of really dubious value
I was only partially serious indeed. But why not? One of the problems in modern world is too many choices that makes it hard to commit, expecting a better something later on. So, why not eliminate possible friction items off the table? We have here otherwise reasonable people not being able to agree on whether Hunter Biden is Joe Biden’s son or not. Could you imagine Hasan and Kalla having this argument?! Even if their positions are both unsupported (or maybe especially then), it is better for them to have the same opinions.
You can also say that same opinions and habits are simanim that their middos and attitudes are similar. For example, do we have many families where spouses disagree on a bitter topic of covid behaviors. There are some but most are closer to each other, I think, than two random people from the same community. This is a novel issue that was not discussed at the shiduch but some commonality leads to similar thinking.
@ AriHaleviRosman
I don’t understand why you’re only bothered where it was the mother of the single who nixed the idea for their kids because the references didn’t return the call fast enough. Would you have been just as bothered if it was the single himself / herself who nixed the idea for the same reason?
Would you be bothered if the mother of a single called references and asked questions that you agreed were relevant?
A few years after I graduated high school there was an unfortunate incident there and the place ended up closing down. Someone refused to go out with me, five years after I left, because I went to high school there. I told the shadchan that not only wasn’t I there when it happened but anyone is welcome to check my medical history to see that there was never any sign of me being involved in drugs. I was also in respected Yeshivos since then and had many Rabbeim who could vouch for me.
The girl responded that if she could just get someone from Chaim Berlin or Torah Vodaas why should she date me and then have to explain to her friends that I was in high school there although I wasn’t there during the bust?
At the end I was relieved that she filtered her name out for me as I wouldn’t want someone like that anyway.
Please answer this though- do you feel differently about the situation because she said that as opposed to her mother?
> your sister is bombarding each of the dayanim
Why would people call dayanim all the time? Most likely, the talmid was repsectful to the dayan. I would rather ask friends and baalei batim and even the school cleaners (presuming they speak English) how the person interacts with them.
Ari, you’d benefit from having your father strange a shidduch for you with a girl’s father. Once the two fathers agree, you’d meet the girl. After the meeting and both agreeing, they set a wedding date for you.
Two words: BITUL TORAH!
Look at my username for the answer
To AAQ: Your comment of April 5, at 10:21, implies that school cleaners are unworthy of your interest. What makes you think that? And what makes you think that you are worthy of my interest, other than my comments on your posts.
My first Jewish teacher in a public school made a point of teaching us that the school janitors deserved respect, including the colored one.
@ huju, your first Jewish teach had you color in class? Interesting so did mine, we use to color every day in kindergarten.
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