Peace Plan

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  • #1604485

    Doing my best
    Participant

    From what a read, Us jews don’t support a two state solution or a one state solution in which the arabs become israeli citizens.

    So what exactly do we want? status quo?

    Don’t attack me, just what i wrote.

    #1604838

    Those who support neither of those solutions might want the Palestinians to be absorbed by Arab countries.

    #1604876

    akuperma
    Participant

    Very few Israelis are willing to live in a Muslim majority country, or to give up Jewish claims to Eretz Yisrael. Very few Palestinians are willing to live in a non-Muslim country, or to give up their claims to territory that was part of the Islamic world for many centuries. The exceptions a few and far between (many Hareidim would not object to an Islamic state if it respected autonomy for the frum community, some non-Muslim and secular Arabs would not object to living under a non-Muslim government), and most of the exceptions are inclined to move elsewhere (e.g. Europe or America).

    So there is really no chance for a peace plan, but politicians have to do something to look busy.

    #1605147

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Akuperma,

    👍😜

    #1605190

    1
    Participant

    The Arabs don’t want a 2 state solution. It’s just one of the games they play to make the PLO a legitimate government.

    #1605193

    philosopher
    Participant

    Isrealis are not against Arabs having Israeli citizenship. Druze and Christian Arabs (and many non-Jewish minorities) are Isrealis and no one objects to that. It is the Muslims who live and breathe violence and want to destroy Isreal, so Israelis don’t want to live next to them because the are threatened by them, many of which are nothing more than wild beasts on two feet.

    Nevertheless, these Muslims are not planning on giving up their “dream” of “reclaiming their land” by bloodshed, c”v. That’s why the “peace-process” is nothing more than a pipe dream for many irrational people.

    #1605239

    many Hareidim would not object to an Islamic state if it respected autonomy for the frum community

    I find that hard to believe (unless their underlying thought is that this would resolve all Arab-Jewish tensions and the Jews would not need any protection from the other citizens).

    #1605251

    Doing my best
    Participant

    Philosopher,
    you’re right that the Israeli’s don’t mind living with Arabs, but they do want to live in a jewish country.
    (which the reason for the nationality law.)

    #1605273

    philosopher
    Participant

    Doing my best, so Jews want a Jewish country? Europeans want European countries, Arabs wants Arab countries and Jews want a Jewish country. What’ so bad about that as long as there’s no persecution of other minorities living in the country? Everyone has a right to protect their culture from those trying erase it. And in Israel’s case it is not only the culture, but it’s the Jews, the Muslims want to destroy.

    #1605354

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I would be okay living here (in Israel) if it were a joint country run by palestinians and Jews that protected both nations and was against any type of terror.

    The only problem is there aren’t many palestinians who would agree to that.
    Palestinians want the entire country, for themselves. AND don’t want any Jews running or living in it.

    #1605368

    1
    Participant

    Philosopher but the Arabs in israel don’t want the Jews to have a country.

    #1605439

    Joseph
    Participant

    What akuperman and, I believe, Shopping613 are saying (and correctly so) is that in a hypothetical scenario where a non-Jewish government would govern Eretz Yisroel and allow Yidden to fully practice Torah Judaism in safety (no fears of attacks) and with freedom of movement, the frum community (Chareidim) would find that to be a much preferable situation (or at least an acceptable arrangement) than the current arrangement of the land being governed by Zionist Jews.

    #1605978

    philosopher
    Participant

    Sure, I think the bloodthirsty, Jew hating liars from Europe and the Islamic fundamentalists who killed hundreds of thousands in recent years, would make an excellent government for the Jews in Israel … The fact that a huge percentage of goyim have a problem with Jews defending our lives from vicious terrorists and they always stick up for the “poor” Fakestinians, and turn a blind eye to the genuine hatred that exists in those who continue to do terror, would make them fantastic rulers over the Jews, they would certainly care about us…NOT!

    Hateful, anti-Semitic people, make up at least 70% of the European, Russian, and Arab Muslim populations. They are descendents, especially Europeans and Russians of the most viscous murderers who murdered and persecuted our ancestors for over 2 millennium and they wouldn’t give a damn if the Arab Muslims, who have been persecuting and killing hundreds of thousands of their own people in recent years, and they have a most violent history too, decide to “take care” of the infidel Jews, c”v.

    The Zionists, even the secular ones, are my brothers and sisters. I feel safe walking the streets in Israel while I wouldn’t want to put my pinky over the Gazan border so I don’t think it’s a good idea to make “peace” with such a “peaceloving” people. I hope and daven that the secular Jews should return to the Torah. I also think the majority of Israeli Jews believe in Hashem. I’d rather they govern Israel, I feel much safer (an understatement) with a Jewish government. Please don’t preach to me how Hashem is protecting us and not the Israeli government and IDF. You can say the same about the government in the USA and the American army…Hashem is protecting us so we don’t need the government…it’s stupid argument, we have to do hishtadlus, and this is the most REALISTIC situation for the SAFETY of Jews in Israel, to have a Jewish government. Of course, only Hashem can guarantee our safety, that doesn’t mean we can be stupid.

    #1606044

    Doing my best
    Participant

    so i think we all agree (on the assumption that a joint jewish-arab cannot happen) that there is no possible peace plan.

    #1606064

    Joseph
    Participant

    In retrospect, the Zionists should never have established a state in the first place. Once you create a mamzer you cannot simply destroy it.

    #1606112

    takahmamash
    Participant

    “In retrospect, the Zionists should never have established a state in the first place.”

    Hashem created the State. The Zionists were just His messengers.

    #1606223

    akuperma
    Participant

    The best chance of peace would occur if: 1) Frum Jews become a majority in Israel; 2) The people in the Muslim world decide they are fed up with constant wars; 3) The Muslims form a large state including non-Arab Muslims.

    If all three things happen, it would be possible for Israel to agree to be a member of that state in a way that makes the Palestinians feel they are no longer stateless (they would have a passport). If other countries in the state have armies, and few would give up their army, Israel could maintain a military. If there are multiple official languages (Farsi, Turkish, Urdu), having Hebrew would be less of a problem (and note that Hebrew speakers have an easier time learning Arabic than any other non-Arabs). Israel would have to offer that in matters where halacha and shariah agree, to make its laws conform to what the Muslims favor (e.g. no interest, no toeiva, etc.). Since a frum Jews is more interested in being able to live in Eretz Yisrael and do mitsvos, rather than building a workers’ paradise or a state “free” from the yoke of Torah, there is room.

    It should be noted that at the end of World War I, the zionists and Arabs agreed to an autonomous zionist entity within a much large Arab state, and the the plan was thwarted by the British who feared such a state would be too powerful (consider an Arab state including all Arabs east of Suez, including Arabia, and including 15 million Jews (the current Israeli population plus six million).

    #1606269

    1
    Participant

    There was a plan in 47 which the Arabs rejected

    #1606410

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Hashem created the State. The Zionists were just His messengers.

    What does that mean? Surely you don’t mean that the fact that it exists means it’s good. There are plenty of things which exist (or existed) which we don’t consider good, yet could only come to be through Hashem’s will.

    #1606403

    philosopher
    Participant

    Doing my best, no peace with the Arab Muslims living in Israel will not be acheived, certainly not the way the Isrealis government is acting with always being on the defensive. The only way to deal with the Arabs is forcing them into “peace” by showing them that there’s severe consequences for their actions, not one day there’s a “peace plan” and the other day they are slapped on the wrist.

    Joseph, what difference does it make that Jews defended themselves against the Arabs who kept on making the Jews’ lives miserable in the early 20th century? The Jews won the wars and that’s only because Hashem wanted it that way and it’s a huge chesed from the Aibishter. If Jews would not gain independence, they would not be able to live in todays’ current atmosphere of Arab violence, regardless if the government would also have representatives of the European and Russian anti-Semites. It is for certain that the Jewsish communities in Eretz Israel would look like the Jewsish communities in Arab countries today, dwindling and shrinking because it would be impossible because of physical safety and mental strain, to live as Jews currently do in most Muslim countries.

    akuperma, give me a break, these Muslim Arabs can be part of Israel as other Arabs are. No one is keeping them stateless but their own actions. Jews live in Muslim countries too, the Fakestinians can live as citizens in Israel. And while I would like every Jew to live like a Jew, I fail to see how peace would be acheived if all Isrealis become frum. The Fakestinians live in a culture of violence, many Arabs are busy killing each other today, certainly they have no issue doing that to Jews, so how exactly will peace be acheived if all Jews in Israel are frum?

    #1606574

    Avi K
    Participant

    I am in favor of a two state solution. Israel and Jordan. Jordan is, in fact, Palestine. It was part of the Ottoman province of Palestine and is majority “Palestinian” (as opposed to Beduin.). The Arabs in Judea and Samaria should be paid to leave to countries that need immigrants with money by an international resettlement fund. Those that do not can be offered permanent residency or citizenship (if they agree to do national service and sign a loyalty oath).

    @DY, there is a Torah obligation to establish a state in EY. This has been discussed several times here.

    #1606417

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    You are wrong when you write that no one is keeping the Palestinians stateless. Israel will not let them become citizens of Israel because doing so would create a situation where there would be enough non Jews in the country to vote in a way that would destroy the Israel’s Jewish character. It would no longer be a Jewish and Democratic state if there are too many Non Jews in it. Israel also won’t let create their state. They are genuinely stuck in a bad situation.

    The problem is that you have 2 groups of people living on a piece land and both believe they have the right to self determination.

    So there are 3 options:

    1.) A two state solution where both groups get their own state.

    2.) A single democratic state in the whole area (It won’t be Jewish though, the majority of those living in such a state won’t be Jewish)

    3.) An apartheid style single state where the non Jews can’t vote or have a say in the character of the state. (Problematic on moral grounds)

    #1606577

    akuperma
    Participant

    If you want peace, peace has to be made with the Palestinians. It doesn’t matter if you make a deal with the dictators in Jordan or Iran or Syria, to end the war the Palestinians Arabs have to approve it. Their minimum will be full citizenship in a country where they feel they belong, and compensation for lost property. You can argue there were no such things as Palestinians 100 years ago when both the early zionists (though Weizmann) and the Haredim (through Jacob Israel De Haan) negotiated with the Arabs, but by partitioning the Middle East, the British and French created Palestinians and they are there now.

    #1606579

    000646
    Participant

    Avi & Philospher,

    Making the Palistinians into citizens of Israel with full equal rights is not an option if you wish to keep the state both Democratic and Jewish. There will simply be enough non Jews who will vote away the Jewish character of the state if you did that.

    You would have to force all the palistinians to move to Jorden if you would want that to be their state. This would be problematic on both moral and practical grounds.

    A two state solution with the Palestinians getting their own state really seems like the only feasible solution.

    #1606716

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    The plan avik mentions seems to be the only feasible one. The compensation will encourage many to emigrate and that, combined with the greater Jewish majority and higher Jewish birthrate, not to mention aliya, would ensure it stays a Jewish state.

    00646 I don’t know how any smart Jew living on this planet would think a two state solution is a feasible let alone ideal solution. The only thing it is ideal for is collective Jewish suicide. Show me one Arab country who’s minority population is growing, not diminishing. They even murder each other. And we mini experimented (bad idea when then) with Gaza. Not exactly utopian relations with Israel although they had all the self determination they wanted. Jordan is anyway 78% of the original Palestine.

    #1606725

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Besides even expelling the Arabs by force is better than what they do – stab and lynch innocent civilians. We can also start by expelling families of terrorists who have been shown to support the terrorists ideologies by education/ incitement, practically, or not trying to prevent it if they knew about it. If we’d get some leaders with some real leadership capabilities when enough Israelis get fed up with the status quo of murders, attempted murders and rockets / balloons/ tunnels etc. it may happen sooner than later

    #1606732

    000646
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha,

    Forcing people to take compensation or move is not practical or moral solution. Besides where would they even move to? They were living in what is now Israel for hundreds of years. Imagine Native Americans coming into Brooklyn and demanding that it’s residents accept a small amount of money and move to Canada or Mexico or something. If you gave the Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank full Israeli citizenship Israel would not be a Jewish state within a year. All the Laws that make it Jewish would be voted out.

    Again if you want Israel to be a Jewish state you either need to have an apartheid state where the Palestinians have no voting rights etc, kill all the Palestinians, or give them a state.

    Maybe this is why some of the Gedolim were against the idea of a Jewish state. It’s a real problem.

    #1606754

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, the Fakestinians were Israeli citizens until the “Oslo “Peace” Accord…where land was given over to these terrorists. It could be a fully Jewish state even with Gaza and the West Bank being part of Israel.

    #1606774

    000646
    Participant

    Philosopher,

    You are wrong.
    The Palistinians were absolutely NOT citizens of Israel before Oslo. Until Oslo they weren’t citizens and there wasn’t even a recognized representative to negotiate with. They were just stateless people living in refugee camps.

    Your also wrong if you think that Israel could absorb about 4 million Arab citizens (that’s about the amount of Palistinians living in the West Bank and Gaza) and still keep it’s Jewish character. All Jewish specific parts of the state would be voted out within a couple years.

    #1606812

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, Israel doesn’t have to absorb anybody. They are already living on the land which Israel should not have given away. Only the Israeli government should have governed Gaza and the West Bank AS THEY DID BEFORE the Oslo “Peace” Accords instead of the Hamas and PLO terrorists and Jews should be able to live on those lands AS THEY DID BEFORE the Oslo “Peace” Accords.

    Whether the Fakestinians had representatives in the Israeli government or not, I’m not sure about that, I assumed were citizens like the Israeli Muslims living in Israel today. Whatever their status was, they should have representatives. But what is for sure is if they would not have a culture of violence and hatred towards Jews and would be good citizens like the Druze, Christian, and Bedouin Arabs, they would have citizenship as well. It’s their own problem that they want to “reclaim” land that was never theirs to begin with. The census in pre-Israel days show very little inhabitants in Palestine in general, it was a very neglected land. That they came from surrounding countries in the late 20th and early 2st century, and that they were earlier were invaders to the region from the Arabian lands, does not mean that they actually owned these lands. And would they not have started wars with the Jews, in the pre-Israel days and lived in peace with them, there wouldn’t be any issues of who owns what because the land was devided between Jews and Arabs but they didn’t want to accept that. They started the war and the victor get the spoils. Today, they have a choice to stop their “struggle” and start living like human beings not like chayos that they are who need to be contained.

    #1606820

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    Again, your wrong. Nothing the Palistinians in the West Bank and Gaza could have done would get them Citizenship in Israel. It was never offered to them, because giving them citizenship would make it impossible for Israel to be a Jewish state. That’s exactly what the issue is. You have a bunch of people who have no say in the government that forcefully took control of the land in which they live , they also can’t travel freely or work in Israel proper because they are not citizens. Naturally they quite upset about all this.

    It’s also why a two state solution is the only moral solution here that will keep Israel as a Jewish state. You simply can’t keep millions of Palistinians stateless under your control forever and can’t absorb them into Israel without destroying it as a Jewish state.

    #1606836

    Doing my best
    Participant

    Why isn’t Gaza a good enough state for those who want a new arab state?

    #1606883

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    There’s nothing wrong with absorbing the arabs and not having a fully Jewish state.
    There is a problem when half the population is trying to kill the other half.

    #1606913

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    00046
    Its sad to see a Jew sounding like they’re reading off a page from Unrwa which even the USA left because of its blatant anti semetism. Or al jazeera. Regardless, unfortunately your posts reflect the above which is a mix of inflated (read false) numbers, falsehoods and distorted facts. I’ll be happy to address one by one. But even if you were correct with the facts, personally I find your misplaced rachmonus to be most appalling. One who is kind to murderers is cruel to the rest of society because any can now be his next victims…

    So let’s say you were correct with your facts. The way they have behaved (intifadas, lynchings, knife attacks etc) has disqualified them from claiming another state ( besides for the fact that it wouldn’t be possible to live side by side within a few miles, peacefully, with barbarians.)

    If a wife wants to divorce her husband, and he feels it is completely unjustified, so he throws acid in her face or honour kills her (as these barbarians do), would you feel bad for him and say its unfortunate she decided to get divorced when it was unfounded? Or would you say lock him up and better yet if there’s clear evidence etc, put him to death?

    Any moral person would say the latter (ok the death penalty is controversial but not the removal from society). No matter what his grievance is, he cannot harm or murder her. He needs to take her to court.

    Same here. When these people say there is a grand injustice going on (which is 99% false) and then go stabbing, blowing up or lynching innocent civilians, they lose any claim to a peaceful side by side state. And having mercy on them is just endorsing the next murder.

    #1606930

    Avi K
    Participant

    00046, almost thirty years ago I heard a lecture on the “demographic problem”. The lecturer said “Maybe the Iron Curtain will come down” and everyone laughed. Moreover, I specified that they will have to sign a loyalty oath and agree to do national service. How many will agree to this? Polls show that a majority of Arab in Judea-Samaria and 80% in Gaza are willing to admit that they would leave if they could. There is computerized testing for American professional exams such as the actuarial exams is available in Ramallah, which shows that there is an interest among young Arabs (they can even apply for jobs over the Internet and once there is an offer a green card is not a problem. Offering them a new life in a country like Canada (which needs 350,000 workers) or Germany (which needs 800,000) plus a generous stake would lead to a mass exodus.

    #1606914

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Now to correct the facts:

    “Forcing people to take compensation or move is not practical or moral solution.”

    The plan avik mentions and I endorsed does not involve forcing people. You can read it again. Many many Arabs have moved out on their own without compensation to other countries. The plan involved OFFERING them financial compensation to move which many would likely accept. The only ones forced to move would be those who are disloyal just like any other country. There is nothing immoral about evicting people who would gladly lynch you given the chance.

    ” Besides where would they even move to?”

    Any choice of the numerous Arab countries starting from Jordan which is anyway Palestinian, the Muslim loving Sweden, Europe…

    “They were living in what is now Israel for hundreds of years.”

    That is false. If you look up history you will see that there were very few people living there and it was mainly in ruins. The vast majority of Arabs only arrived once the Zionists began cultivating the desert land and there was therefore more business opportunity.

    And anyway, regardless, no one would be forcing loyal Arab Israelis out. the Arabs who would agree to remain and be loyal to the Jewish state (no terrorism etc) would get citizenship. No other country harbours traitors whose elected representatives call for destroying the country.

    “If you gave the Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank
    full Israeli citizenship Israel would not be a Jewish state
    within a year. All the Laws that make it Jewish would be voted out.”

    False. We demographically outnumber the Arabs so for sure not within the year, our birthrate is higher, and as for the concern for the future, the main concern is harbouring a large disloyal, bent on terrorism minority, which wouldn’t happen according to the plan. The Arab growth has anyway been slow (the PA inflates statistics) due to many Arabs moving out, without incentive, to live a better life elsewhere.

    The other concern would be that the birthrate may change and it could eventually be a demographic issue. But with the financial incentive to leave,and the removal of traitors, there wouldn’t be so many as to pose the threat.

    “Again if you want Israel to be a Jewish state you either need to have an apartheid state where the Palestinians have no voting rights etc, kill all the Palestinians, or give them
    a state.”

    Nope. Although better an apartheid state (as every Arab country is to its Non Muslims, and apartheid is the wrong word, the Druze have no issues because they’re loyal to the country, its not due to racism as denoted by apartheid, its due to security concerns.

    No one said kill all the Palestinians although with the current situation more Arabs area being killed due to their violent riots, stabbing attempts, rock throwing etc so if you’re really worried about that, you’d be loudly advocating for a feasible plan to change that.

    Or give them a state- well yes they had that option in 47. If that’s all they wanted there would be no trouble. They don’t want another state. They want that we should not be independent, no matter the borders. Ie. No Israel. They also have a state we have them in gaza, a terror state bent on our destruction. We definitely have no reason to give them another state to level more missiles at us.

    “Maybe this is why some of the Gedolim were against the idea of a Jewish state. It’s a real problem.”

    The gedolim were against it was because of halachic problems. But once it was established the Rebbe for example spoke many hours about the importance of not even talking about giving away Eretz Hakodesh as it endangers Jewish lives. There were some who thought otherwise but after the gaza experiment I don’t think there is any major Torah authority today that advocates giving the murderous Arabs more of our land. (No neturei karta doesn’t count.)

    That’s why I was surprised to see your posts which are a page out of the lying Arabs/ anti semites ways of talking.

    One last thing there are no millions of Arab refugees. Refugees are people displaced by war. Not their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren who have been living in other countries. Unrwa lists them as refugees to keep the demographic threat going. Nowhere else would these people be counted as refugees just as the Jews children etc expelled from Arab countries aren’t counted as refugees. The ones who suffer from this lie the most are the Arabs who are detained in the PA, gaza, Jordan, and syria by their fellow Arab brothers in refugee camps, and are not allowed to lead normal lives, just to keep this hatred and threat going.

    #1606935

    000646
    Participant

    AviK

    I’m sure many would be happy to become citizens of and move to rich European countries or the USA (as would many Israelis or citizens of just about any country in the Middle East or Africa for that matter.) You would need to get these countries to take them. Good luck with that. It’s just not practical and frankly those other countries have no reason to take them. The Palestinians had been living in the land that is now Israel for hundreds of years. Like I said earlier imagine if a bunch of Native Americans put together an army came into New York, (their ancestral homeland) took over, and insisted that all the current residents of New York leave and move back to the countries their grandparents or great grandparents came from so they can re establish a Native American state.

    Signing a loyalty oath wouldn’t solve the demographic problem. If the state is democratic the Palestinians would be able to vote away the Jewish character of the state. Signing a loyalty oath wouldn’t help for that.

    #1607105

    philosopher
    Participant

    AviK, most Fakestinians have not been living there for hundreds. Read history books and you will see that the land was mostly unhabitated.

    Don’t compare the Fakestinians to Native Americans. Fakestinians are not native to Palestine. The people called Palestinians were Jews, Christians, other minorities and ALSO Muslims living in Palestine. Muslim Arab “Palestinians” are a made up nation.

    #1607139

    Avi K
    Participant

    00046, very few will sign and even fewer will do national service, which is also a condition. As for countries willing to take them, Canada, especially under Justin Trudeau will probably be happy to do so. With the resettlement package several other countries will also be interested. Western European countries will have no choice as someone will have to support their aging populations.

    Philosopher, I never claimed that they did. However, thirty years ago they certainly were.

    #1607165

    000646
    Participant

    Avi K,

    Non of those countries have ever indicated that they are willing to grant citizenship to 4 million Arabs from the middle east. I’m relatively sure non of them would ever do this. Probably half the world would love to be citizens of the rich Western European countries and Canada. It’s just not going to happen though, it’s simply not practical. The Palestinians were living in the lands the modern state of Israel now controls before 1948 from their point of view and the point of view of the countries you mention they belong in state there. Not in Europe and not in Canada

    #1607170

    000646
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha,

    I keep trying to respond to you and my posts aren’t going through for some reason.

    #1607173

    1
    Participant

    AviK more like NK

    #1607182

    philosopher
    Participant

    AviK, so you can’t compare them to the Native Americans…

    #1607184

    philosopher
    Participant

    AviK, sorry I thought you compared them to Native Americans. I see it was actually 000646 who loves the Fakestinians so much that she made them “natives” of the land…

    #1607187

    000646
    Participant

    Philosopher,

    I compared the Jews in Israel to the Native Americans not the Palestinians. Read what I wrote again.

    #1606928

    000646
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha,

    Non of the facts that I wrote in my post above are false, and non of them in any way excuse the killing of innocent civilians.

    The facts are as I wrote above, and a two state solution is really the only moral option here. Again, forcing them to move is not practical (where would they even go) or moral and I think we all agree that killing them all is morally problematic. They can’t become Israeli citizens because then Israel either won’t be Jewish anymore (it wouldn’t be Israel anymore) or it would have to be an apartheid state, (again a morally problematic situation).

    Shopping613,

    No longer having a Jewish State is a problem for Israel, and absorbing the Palistinians and giving them the right to vote and have a say in the government would make Israel an Arab state. Israel being a Jewish state is the whole point of the Zionist enterprise.

    #1606954

    000646
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha,

    Again, good luck getting any of the countries you list to take in millions of Palestinian Arabs. They won’t do it and frankly they shouldn’t have to. The Palestinians quite literally have nowhere else to go. You also can’t wish away the fact that they did live there before the state of Israel controlled the area. That’s the reason they are there now, they weren’t planted there as some sort of conspiracy.

    The facts are that there are about 4 million Palestinians that are not allowed to have Israeli citizenship due to the demographic problem and aren’t allowed to have a state of their own. This is a problem. Giving them Citizenship would instantly make the country no longer majority Jewish. It would end Israel as a Jewish state. The numbers are what they are, whether you like them or not. So again, if you want Israel to be a Jewish state you can either give the Palestinians a state or kill them all, needless to say killing them all presents a serious moral problem.

    The 3rd option is making a single democratic state in the entire area, in which the citizens of the country both Jewish and Arab can vote and have a say in the laws that govern the land this however would by definition no longer be a Jewish state. I don’t know for a fact but I am pretty sure that some of the Gedolim who opposed the state truly did foresee the practical moral issues involved with taking over land.

    #1607133

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    I was comparing the Jews in Israel to Native Americans. Read what I wrote again. The Palestinians were living there when Israel took control of the land, it does not matter exactly how long before that their ancestors came over there (although for plenty of them it definitely was hundreds of years).

    ChabadShlucha,

    All of the facts I wrote in my earlier post were correct. The bottom line is that there are about 4 million Palestinians under Israeli control that are not citizens of Israel. If they were absorbed by Israel there would instantly no longer be a Jewish majority in the country. It could no longer be a Jewish and democratic state. That’s why Israel can’t offer them citizenship.

    The idea that they should become citizens of another country in Europe or the middle east is not practical either. Why would any other country take them (assuming they want to move to another country)? From any other country’s perspective they should be citizens of a country in the land where they have been living.

    The bottom line is that keeping control over millions of people without giving them a say or citizenship is just not a practical or morally sustainable position. It just makes no sense. You also can’t make a single democratic state and keep it Jewish.

    I’m still unclear what you think is a feasible and moral solution here if not a Palestinian state.

    #1607245

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    See the first Rashi on Chumash. Hashem created the world, and gave Eretz Yisroel to the Jewish people. It’s not morally problematic to not allow non Jews to govern.

    Of course, if you hold that the shalosh shavuos are binding, it’s wrong for us to govern Eretz Yisroel altogether until Moshiach comes, no difference one state or two.

    #1607328

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    646: They already tried a 2 state solution. Jordan is a Palestinian state. The ones left in Israel are just the crazies that nobody wants. You can’t just keep giving the Arabs more Islamic states. Why would that “solve” anything anyway?

    The solution is to let Israel respond properly and harshly to their terrorism. If they had been allowed to do that all these years, your 4 million Palestinian problem might only be a 2 million problem. And, after a few more provocations, a 1 million problem. Eventually, a 0 person problem. Catching my drift?

    And, go ahead, if you’re some goyish college liberal trolling here to get quotes on “how the evil Jews think,” go ahead and use my post. It doesn’t matter because your dreamy terrorist utopia is never going to happen.

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