October 2, 2008 4:36 am at 4:36 am #624575
Explain how “we” don’t take care of our animals. Yes there are a lot of methods that I don’t agree with either, but from what I see, animals have never had it better. Besides who says that we are capable of determining what is in the best interests of animals? Who are we to determine if the right to eat animals has been rescinded or not. There is a big difference between Tzar Ba’ali Chaim and an animal that has been been raised for the purpose of being slaughtered for it’s meat.October 2, 2008 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #624576
“Explain how “we” don’t take care of our animals. Yes there are a lot of methods that I don’t agree with either, but from what I see, animals have never had it better. Besides who says that we are capable of determining what is in the best interests of animals? Who are we to determine if the right to eat animals has been rescinded or not. There is a big difference between Tzar Ba’ali Chaim and an animal that has been been raised for the purpose of being slaughtered for it’s meat.”
You said “Yes there are a lot of methods that I don’t agree with either…” Doesn’t that answer your question? Animals are tortured from nascence till departure from this world to the next.October 2, 2008 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #624577
Please read the following article:
[To Y.W. Editor:
Please put up this post.]October 2, 2008 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #624578
gmab: saying that bentzy doesnt agree with all methods, so he shouldnt agree to all would be akin to not agreeing to murder, and also not agreeing to be able to defend oneself while being attacked in ones own home. o right, you liberals also dont like that one either. lemmings!October 2, 2008 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #624579
“Animals are tortured from nascence till departure from this world to the next.”
GMAB, So animals have Olam Habah as well?October 2, 2008 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #624580
You said “Yes there are a lot of methods that I don’t agree with either…”
Doesn’t that answer your question? Animals are tortured from nascence till
departure from this world to the next.
Nope. There are also a lot of practices that parents do (or don’t do) while raising them but that doesn’t make them abusive or horrible parents. So while I don’t buy veal I’m not anywhere near to saying that eating meat is bad or that we should discontinue it’s use. (I will be honest, veal is a personal thing for me that I have chosen but at the same time I kind of get it too. Meaning, cows of which have many purposes in this world, one of which is their use of meat for food. Veal is incredibly delcious and the only way to get such results is to restrict the baby cow from moving it’s entire life. So for myself I think that this is not a nice way to treat an animal and decided not to spend on money on veal to promote this particular form of raising animals. I don’t need the meat and live a very comfortable existance eating the many other forms of meat and poultry. However, while it bothers me that this is the only way to produce veal I have yet to see complete proof that this is Tzar Ba’ali Chaim. After all this cow’s purpose was to wind up as a delecacy on someone’s plate and when done it’s fulfilling it’s tafkid. So who are we to say that this is wrong. It’s an animal. It doesn’t have the same sort of rights or expectations that we humans get.)
Next animals in general. I have been to many farms and slaughter houses and I’m not bothered one bit about the conditions. Many (of not most) of the cows sent for meat have lived thier prime as old milking cows. They have lived on a farm with plany of food and water (something that animals don’t always have in nature with the droughts we have had recently). They have heated shelters so that they don’t freeze, and for those who know cows, they pretty much don’t do all that much except eat. I’ve never seen an animal suffering and for the most part the farm wants to keep the meat healthy so it can turn over the biggest profit.
The same thing for chicken and as far as fish, it’s just a matter of catching them.
So I don’t see things being pretty bad.October 2, 2008 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #624581
“”Animals are tortured from nascence till departure from this world to the next.”
GMAB, So animals have Olam Habah as well? “
First of all, it’s an euphemism for death. Second, yes, I believe there is life after death for animals.
Then you are simply hardened to what you see. “They have heated shelters so that they don’t freeze, and for those who know cows, they pretty much don’t do all that much except eat.” Exactly. All they are is a bunch of eating machines. “However, while it bothers me that this is the only way to produce veal I have yet to see complete proof that this is Tzar Ba’ali Chaim. After all this cow’s purpose was to wind up as a delecacy on someone’s plate and when done it’s fulfilling it’s tafkid.” An animal’s tafkid is to be eaten? What’s that supposed to mean? And what was the tafkid of the animals before Noach’s time, may I ask? “Nope. There are also a lot of practices that parents do (or don’t do) while raising them but that doesn’t make them abusive or horrible parents.” Parents don’t starve their kids for two weeks to make them lay eggs, and they give them room to move, and they certainly don’t castrate their kids.October 3, 2008 12:13 am at 12:13 am #624582
GMAB, Do you envision sharing your afterlife with the dogs?October 3, 2008 1:10 am at 1:10 am #624583
Saying that I’m “hardened by what I see” is basically another way of you saying “I don’t have the facts to back up my claims so now I have to work on putting you down.” It was a mild put down and I appreiciate it since name calling only diverts from the topic at hand but it still was a put down non the less. You don’t know me well enough to make such a cliam but entitled to your “opinion”.
I also was busy reading the link that you provided and was very unimpressed. It made a lot of strong claims and accusations but failed to bring any solid proof to back up it’s statements other than a Former chief Rabbi from Ireland and a lot of Jewish names with phd’s (and the like) following their name. From what I see it’s also just a lot of opinions stated to promote thier cause.
Tafkid: What is the purpose of an animal in this world? Well they are given to us in our service to Hashem. They pull our heavy loads, watch over our sheep, pull our wagons (in snow and hot weather) make furrows so we can plant our wheat, make excellent winter clothing, brought as offerings to Hashem (In the time of the beis hamikdash) compainons to the elderly and lonly. They also have their wool shorn off for clothing, thier feathers for pillows and downcoats, horsehair for violins, the skins for sefrei torah, and teffilin, fur for striemels, amoung the many uses that are on the top of my head. Plus, they make an excellent and tastey source of protien. We make a bracha on the meat and the animal is then raised to a higher level of existance.
Before the mabul? Nothing different the potential was with in so that when mankind would rise up to the level worthy to receiving the Torah it would be there available. Mankind did not reach that level and thus were destroyed.
As far as the torture can you please give examples of where and when this takes place. I have been to several shlacht houses as well as the empire plant. I have yet to see anything like you have described. No they don’t get a lovely pasture to romp and roam, but then again they don’t seem to mind either way.October 3, 2008 5:33 am at 5:33 am #624584
gmab: where do you get that animals have an afterlife.October 3, 2008 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #624585squeakParticipant
Of course animals have an afterlife – otherwise what will WE eat in Olam Habo or at the seudas livyoson? Some after-world wild ox, right?October 5, 2008 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #624587
squeak: i hope you are joking. the seudas livyason is here on planet earth, and the livyason is a sea creature, a whale of sorts. it has a fight with some other creature, a unicorned bull or rhinoceros. we dont eat the livyason, we sit under its shade, since the full power of the sun comes back. (global warming and the depletion of the ozone?)October 5, 2008 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #624588
I’d love to share my Olam HaBah with dogs! They’re such fun!
“They also have their wool shorn off for clothing, thier feathers for pillows and downcoats, horsehair for violins, the skins for sefrei torah, and teffilin, fur for striemels, amoung the many uses that are on the top of my head. Plus, they make an excellent and tastey source of protien. We make a bracha on the meat and the animal is then raised to a higher level of existance.”
“…fur for striemels [strEImels]…”: Wearing a streimel is a European custom that has NO basis in Torah or ChaZaL.
“…and the animal is then raised to a higher level of existance [existEnce]…”: But if, as you people believe, that animals don’t have souls, then what is there to “raise?”
Apathetic imbeciles.October 5, 2008 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #624589
Give me a break: “Apathetic imbeciles.” …..?????
I’m actually speechless. For an individual who is trying so hard to get his opinion across to have to resort to name calling (or like I said before, when your logic isn’t strong enough to hold you up you have no choice but to start putting down those who go against you).
So the fact that fur striemals/streimals has no Torah basis is irrelevant. It is a “tool” that is worn by Chassidim to enhance their levush/dress for Shabbos and Yom Tov. So, while I’m as Litvish as they get, there have been a lot of really special and holy Chassidim who have no problem what-so-ever killing and wearing it’s fur. (You haven’t provided one either. All I have seen is an opinion based on the permission given to mankind before Avroham Avinu and matan torah’s time and why you think it shouldn’t apply now)
The point of being raised to a higher level of existence has been discussed already and I invite you to look through the old posts.
With that being said I wish you a G’mar Chasimah Tovah and all the best with your life. I on the other hand will be throwing my lot with the countless “apathetic imbeciles” (including the Gedolei Hador and Rabbonim of now and the past 3,000 years of whom you seem to know better than.)October 6, 2008 12:16 am at 12:16 am #624590Lkwd2newyorkMember
Gmab: quote “I’d love to share my Olam HaBah with dogs! They’re such fun!
Becarefull what you wish for you may just get it.October 6, 2008 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #624592
Firstly, I wasn’t calling any one an apathetic imbecile. I was “muttering under my breath.”
Secondly, “The point of being raised to a higher level of existence has been discussed already and I invite you to look through the old posts.” Where?
Thirdly, “(or like I said before, when your logic isn’t strong enough to hold you up you have no choice but to start putting down those who go against you)” My logic is fine. It’s just that people here have been so brainwashed with this “servants of people” thing that they won’t listen to logic.October 6, 2008 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #624593squeakParticipant
ah, dear mariner. always replying before understanding. at the seudas livyoson we eat the “shor-habor” (aka wild-ox, the livyoson is a fish), but we need animals in olam haboh too in case we get hungry. But yes, I was joking so there is no need to reply.October 6, 2008 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #624594
I don’t think we’ll be hungry in the Afterlife.October 7, 2008 5:08 am at 5:08 am #624595
squeak, what source do you have for us that we will eat the shor? all i know, and all i can research is that each will shecht each other. the only ones who seem to say we will partake of the shor, is lubavitch, and they are speaking in esoteric terms only.October 7, 2008 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #624596
I repeat, I would love to spend my Afterlife with friendly canines (and humans).October 8, 2008 12:13 am at 12:13 am #624600
gmab, sorry, animals have no afterlife, they have no neshoma, hence no gan eden/gehinom. they are no different then a piece of wood.October 8, 2008 9:13 am at 9:13 am #624601yoshiMember
I’m not sure if anyone has addressed this yet, so please forgive me if this is a repeat. This is a question for the original poster, (and others who wish to sound their opinion). I’m curious what your views are on the scientific studies and experiments on animals for reasons such as finding cures for many diseases that have sadly inflicted many people, their loved one’s, and friends. I support those who will not eat meat, or wear animal material, (I myself eat meat, and enjoy it tremendously). I, however, do not support those who protest against scientific experiments on animals for the purpose of finding treatments, and cures for diseases. You should also think about that before taking any over the counter, or prescription drugs, for many are there for you and the public, because of the studies they performed on animals. (There are several other products out there that have been tested on animals, some will say whether it was or not, but not all).
mariner, I’m only replying to you, because you are the last to post, and it caught my attention. Some animals are a gilgul, and I for one believe in that concept (from a very personal and emotional experience).October 8, 2008 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #624602
yoshi, what in the world does gilgul have to do with anything. he said he wants to sit in the afterlife with dogs. dogs have no afterlife, plain and simple.October 8, 2008 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #624603
Please read my original post. I said that I support animal testing for cures. I do NOT, however, support animal testing for cosmetics, because it’s a waste of life.October 13, 2008 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #624607head in the sandMember
I am not a vegetarian, but even if I was I would still eat veal because veal is too tasty to give up for anything. And if veal was outlawed, I would buy baby calves and veal them myself.October 21, 2008 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #624608zevi8Member
How can so many people be this ignorant? First of all, let me address the concept of eating animals and whether it is right or wrong. God originally created a world where humans and animals lived in peace and harmony with each other. Every one was vegetarian. After the flood, god gave people permission to eat meat, probably because there was no vegetation left after all the water destroyed everything. Once people started eating meat, its very difficult to get them to stop. The rules of eating meat were revised for jewish people, only allowing for certain kinds of animals (kosher). Just because god gave permission for people to eat meat, doesnt make it right and doesnt make it good in his eyes. If God originally thought it not to be good for people to eat meat when he created humans, he still thinks that way. God doesnt change opinions of what is right and what is wrong. He may have conceded to humans in desperate times but doesnt make it right. I am a vegetarian but i dont tell people whether they should eat meat or not. Lets not go and say that its a mitzvah to eat meat. Let nobody kid themselves and think that animals raised for kosher food are treated any better. Its the same factory farming. Chickens are cramped. Cows are fed food that they are not supposed to eat, that upsets their digestive system. The only difference is the killing process. All the torture before is the same in kosher as it is for non kosher. When god gave permission for man to eat meat, he didnt have the idea of factory farming in mind. Doesnt matter which animal, all are treated poorly. I dont agree with peta on alot of things, but people should respect animals. And the dim wit who said that animals have no soul, better look into the torah more closely. Unless you think you are smarter than king solomon because apparently he knew that animals have souls. They are not like a piece of wood.
Another issue, Animals do not need to be tested on. People would have you believe that good comes out of testing on animals. They tell you it finds cures for diseases and medicines are tested for safety before given to people. Firstly, Animals are not people. Diseases are not the same and cures are not the same. Medicines dont have the same effect on animals as they do on people. Secondly, There has never been a disease cured that has been directly related to testing on animals. Additionally,drug companies wont tell you that 30,000 people a year die from taking the right amount of pharmaceuticals. See how effective animal testing is? on a closing note, if you want to eat meat and you are moral and ethical person, you cant in good faith eat regular meat or chicken.Find a local farm. Factory farming is just wrong.October 23, 2008 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #624610
Ok Zevi it’s time to break out the chumash and separate opinion from fact.
First all of us ignorant folks here have a posuk in the Chumash where Hashem gave all of mankind the right to eat animals due to the fact mankind was responsible for saving them. Nothing to do with the lack of vegetation. (In fact Hashem gave a special bracha to the vegetation after the mabul of which Noach first planted a vineyard, got drunk and wound up cursing his grandson as a result of what was done to him in his drunken state.) Hashem takes care of the needs of all living creatures and would not have to change a law to provide for his creatures. So that logic just went out the window. Besides if there was 2 of each kind of non kosher and 7 of the kosher (minus the korbonos that Noach offered) there wouldn’t be much left to repopulate the animal kingdom)
Ok, back to the world where animal and mankind lived in peace with each other…..ummm when did that happen? Only for a few hours in Gan Eden did such a world exist but alas Adom sinned and was kicked out. From that point and on mankind degraded to the point where immorality took over and it perverted animal and nature in kind. Hashem waiting so ever patiently for mankind to be the worthy of one day getting the Torah, failed it’s mission and was destroyed leaving only Noach, his wife, 3 sons and 3 daughter-in-laws.
Ok, next, why would Hashem say it’s Ok to eat meat with countless halochos connected to it if we shouldn’t . Mitzvohs were given for our benefit to strengthen our neshomos. So with every shechitah, and the mitzvah of covering the blood, and making a bracha before we eat, and so on we are improving ourselves…. so to say we shouldn’t just doesn’t add up. This is an opinion which has no source. Mankind inability to eat before hand is not a proof that Hashem doesn’t want us to eat meat. I can say just as easily, that mankind was not on the level yet where they could eat meat and therefore they were denied that right to do so, when Noach built the tevia and saved their lives (not to mention took care of them 24/7 in the tevia) mankind was elevated through that act and thus now worthy.
The fact that we are worthy is because we are descendants of Noach and thus get the same benefits (and also the same fact that the animals owe their existence to us as well since if we were to stop learning Torah the world would no longer exist)
Ok lets talk about factory farming. I disagree on what you feel is torture. There is a big difference between kicking an animal then having it live in cramped quarters. Once I’m given the right to eat animal for food I am also allowed to make provisions to mass produce and market them and their meat on a large scale. Soul or no soul they are on a different level of existence and we were given the right to eat them. I have taken the time the past few weeks to speak with several people who work on farms and slaughter houses and I have not heard of anything horrific or close to torture. Yes visions of cows and chickens running in large pastures gently eating the grass and hay is a wonderful thought, yet it’s not a reality for most animals even in nature. So you are entitled to your opinion of what you think Hashem would think, but until you have a source of some sort it doesn’t make it so. ( I also don’t know if the cows care all that much or even have the capacity to care, about their living arrangements.) Plus I would like to see data of places where the diet causes problems for their digestion.
Ok next issue testing on animals…..I would like to see where you get your facts but if you ever met someone who has diabetes, the fact that they are alive is due to the efforts of several dogs who gave up their lives after they had their pancreas removed and thus started the focus on administering insulin into blood. (over a hundred years ago) Plus yes animals are different, but enable us to learn treatments that have resulted in lifesaving vaccines and treatments. The research on cancer and Alzheimer would never progressed to their present day levels without testing on animals.
Next I am going to conclude as well that as a G-d fearing and religious Jew (following in the steps of thousands of years of Tzaddikim who eat meat) I will eat my meat on Shabbos to elevate the seudah to something more special, I will also eat my meat and make a bracha on it which will then physically and spiritually elevate my body when I eat it. I as well as millions of others will become all the much greater for it, be better Jews, and get closer to Hashem as a result. (despite your opinion of what makes a person a good Jew)October 23, 2008 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #624611
Thank you for your beautiful post. It was eloquently written, and drove home a powerful point. I hope some people will read what you wrote and stop being so selfish about their culinary desires.
head in the sand:
Your head really IS in the sand if that’s the way you think.October 24, 2008 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #624612Feif UnParticipant
Which part of zevi8’s post was beautiful? Where he called someone a dim wit? Or asked if someone is smarter than Shlomo HaMelech? Remember, Shlomo ate meat (when the Beis Hamikdash was built, he brought many korbanos).October 24, 2008 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #624615Lkwd2newyorkMember
Let’s see here, on one side of the coin we have an actual source located in the Torah that allows us to eat meat, no clause anywhere stating that it was conditional, over 3,000 years of Torah personalities that ate meat and various mitzvohs in the Torah connected to shechitah, korbonos and kashrus. On the other side have a few individuals who have strong opinions, no sources (despite being asking to provide one) other than a prohibition that was given to a world that was destined for destruction and lets not forget the name calling and trying to make people feel bad about themselves for not agreeing with them.
So I’m sorry that I haven’t bought into this bologna.October 25, 2008 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #624617zevi8Member
I am not doubting the permission that god gave for man to eat meat. It does not state anywhere in the chumash that god gave man permission to eat as a reward for saving them. This is simply a commentary opinion–Its not law.
Just because man sinned, and was kicked out of gan eden, didnt change the fact that man was still vegetarian and all animals as well. Nobody ate meat. Yes, sin was introduced into the world, but there were still no meat eaters. Meat eaters only appeared after the flood.
If it was perfectly good, and ok, to eat meat in the eyes of Hashem; would there be such an emphasis on ritualistic slaughter? These laws are meant to make it MORE difficult; for the person to REALLY have to think about taking a life. Regarding your comment about the pre-flood world not being “on the level” to eat meat: People in those times were closer to Hashem in that generation, than we are today (Yes, even here in “Lakewood ir ha kodesh”). Why are we eating meat based on that opinion? How does saving animals lives equate to being able to eat them? That claim is ridiculous. Basically, he was saying, ok animals, i am going to save your life and then when we get out of this boat, i’m going to eat you. Makes lots of sense.
The level of factory farming these days is unprecedented. The amounts of animal products that people consume has never before been seen. I do not wish to post on a yiddishe forum sources of kosher animal cruelty, but I assure you, a simple use of google’s powerful search engines, and you’ll find what I’m talking about. Animals living in cramped quarters, eating other animals purchased from veterinary hospitals after being euthanized (often from being diseased), IS against the Torah. Poultry being fed such fattening foods that their legs break because they cannot support their own bodyweight, is not against some law? Even indirectly? Hashem gave us common sense to know what is right and wrong. People are so blinded by their desire to eat meat, and the factories by their profit margins–common sense, and simple compassion, are a rare commodity, in these dismal times.
Animal testing may be beneficial in some cases but i was specifically talking about testing on animals that are alive. The same labs that test for diseases and other sorts also put shampoo into the eyes of rabbits just to see their reaction. That is wrong.
I’ll finish off by saying that it was god who created the human body. Anybody who knows a little about the body knows that the human digestive tract is very long and complicated. It is designed for digesting vegetation. This compared to a carnivore, whose digestive tract is very short and simple, designed to quickly digest meat in a few hours. It takes days, sometimes weeks for meat that is eaten to leave the body. Sometimes never leaving at all but staying in the digestive tract, and causing people to become sick. Hashem, who designed the body, knew exactly what was good for it, and what was not. The major diseases in this country can be traced back to the consumption of non fibrous foods (animal based products): colon cancer, heart disease, and prostate cancer are just a few ticks on a list that goes on and on. Hashem, who designed the human body, knew this. The permission to eat meat was a concession to mankind. Did anyone ever notice that when people get sick they always tell them to eat more fruits and vegetables? Maybe if we followed our diets the way Hashem intended, we would be sick less often, or even have a lower obesity rate? Its no mitzvah to get heart disease, high cholesterol or any of the other associated diseases from eating animals. Eating meat on this factory farming level also causes many problems on a global scale. It is just a very destructive activity. The level of factory farming these days cannot be sustained for a long period of time without major problems. There’s not a person on this planet, myself included, that doesn’t want their children to have a better life than they did. If changes aren’t made to our neshamos, our bodies, and our planet SOON–our future doesn’t have much of a chance at all.October 26, 2008 12:32 am at 12:32 am #624618
What country are you currently in?October 26, 2008 1:22 am at 1:22 am #624619
zevi8 – if god doesn’t want us to eat meat, how do you explain the korbon pesach which one is chayev koreis of not eaten, or for that matter any of the korbonos below the oleh, which is consumed by people?October 26, 2008 3:20 am at 3:20 am #624620
OK Zevi let me rephrase this….we were given the right to eat meat because the Torah said so. Period. The commentary that explain why the change help us understand why this is so. However it is there black and white and I would think that if Hashem wanted to tell us it’s OK but we shouldn’t then the wording would have been different. So in short there is no Halacha basis for not eating either but we have a good source for being allowed.
The fact Man was kicked out had nothing to do with the fact we can or can not eat meat. Rather it was an emphasis that it was the only time when man and animal coexisted in perfect harmony with each other. Once we were out of Gan Eden it all went down hill from there.
Why is there such an emphasis on ritualistic slaughter….simple you are what you eat. How man goes about using animals affects the type of person that he is. If I take a gun and blow off the head of the cow, damages my neshamah as much as the cow. So by doing things in a prescribed way we are more than elevating ourselves by doing the rotzon of Hashem we are also being merciful is how we reach the end means. By looking for the best cut of meat to buy for shabbos each day brings the kedusha of Shabbos into the week. When I eat meat, I make a bracha which then goes into the meat and elevates it kedusha. When my body breaks down the proteins and uses it in my body I benefit from the kedushas as well. ( I will discuss the treatment of animals later since that is a different aspect and needs to be dealt with separately) Plus just be looking through the mishnah brurah and the lives of our Rabbonim and Gedolim lead their lives show how important meat can be in our daily and shabbos/yom tov meals.
Besides there are many instances in Halacha where there is a strong emphasis on our behavior which makes things much harder for us. If all mitzvohs were easy then there wouldn’t be the reward that awaits for us by fulfilling them. Besides even according to your logic this doesn’t give a halchig reason to not eat meat. It is again just an opinion.
Now if the pre-Noach generation were closer to Hashem why were they destroyed? Why were we given the Torah and not them? Plus the fact that there is a minhag to not name a baby after someone born pre mabul (besides Noach and Adom) kind of makes me wonder.
And yes I/we can say, yes Noach saved the animals and therefore gets to eat them. Because the purpose of animals in this world are to be used as a tool to help us serve Hashem. They pull our wagons, give us milk, skins for leather and religious service (sefrei torah, teffilin, etc)and to be slaughtered so that we could bring korbonos to bring us closer to Hashem. So for what ever reason Hashem deemed it so, after the mabul, we were also allowed to put them on our dinner table and eat them. Which is an halchig fact. Besides you logic would have a problem with the kosher animals he saved only to shect them soon after he came out.
Next, I did a google search and found a lot of mudslinging propaganda based on findings that these eco-peta groups put together. I question the validity of it and then looked into Kosher places. (I have also spoken to people who have worked in Kosher shlacht houses as well) I was pretty content with what I found and based on what I have seen first hand and those who I have spoken to, there weren’t any problems like you mentioned. I did not check all but I wonder if you have ever seen these places first hand or just relying on the “facts” from people with an agenda to stop people from eating meat.
As far looking at sickness, I think you forgot to include the consumption of white flour and refined sugar. When you look back to when products like white bread and coke were introduced you will also see everything from cancer to obesity on the rise. The Western civilization of fast food is horrible and saddly if you go to any kosher store you will find more garbage food than what is good for you. Nothing to do with meat, I’m talking about the many types of junk food that makes up isles and isles of our stores. Hashem meant for things to be eaten in moderation. Studies of vegetarian diets have shown to be healthy but also when meat was eaten in moderation with a balanced diet, they were just as healthy. So when you want to make the change for all mankind think about whole grains, non-hydrogenated fats and less sugar as well.
As far as our future, well guess what I have bitochon and not only do I want a better place for my children I have seen it become just that. My kids have a better diet then I had, they are more active since we make it point for them to be and they live in a cleaner and healthier world.October 26, 2008 3:56 am at 3:56 am #624621
Zevi you are such a genius. If you weren’t a genius, how would you know why hashem allowed men to eat animals? If you weren’t a genius, how would you know whether or not “Just because god gave permission for people to eat meat, doesnt make it right and doesnt make it good in his eyes”? If you weren’t a genius, how would you have the right to be an apikorus and go against g-d and the torah where any 3rd grader can correctly tell you that there are MANY explicit mitzvos regarding the korbanos and eating them and who should eat them and how you should eat them? If you weren’t a genius, how would you what g-d had in mind when he gave the torah? Did you just make it up yourself and decide to live your life based on your fantasy world? Who do you think you are? You must be a genius the caliber of Avraham Avinu who figured out the torah on his own. You must be a genius if you feel you are able to argue with the gemara that says “aino simcha elah b’bussur v’yayin.” Or else you have been repeatedly going against the torah in yet one more way, for it says “v’sumachta b’chagecha” Or perhaps you are openly admitting to being m’vatel an asei d’oraysah. So courageous you must be too because you are simply not scared of the purgatory. all for the sake of hashem. WOW! Oh, and that thing about king Solomon, what in the world are you talking about? I suspect you made that up too.
In conclusion, your mind seems a little underdeveloped.October 27, 2008 1:14 am at 1:14 am #624623Pashuteh YidMember
Just heard a shiur from Rabbi Eytan Feiner on this topic, and he said that whichever way one holds on this issue has support from the TOrah. It is interesting that he quotes Rav Kook as saying that in the 3rd Beis Hamikdash there won’t be animal korbonos (I hope I got this right, someone please verify), as things will return to the state of Gan Eden. There were a number of gedolim who were vegetarians, and the inyan of simchas yontof and oneg shabbos is not a halachic problem.
The heter after the flood was either A) because the earth did not produce the same beneficial vegetation as before, B) because people got weaker in general and lived much less time C) The earth tilted on its axis and seasons began, causing the world to get very cold at times, and meat was beneficial for energy.
Certainly there is some mussar value in not wanting to hurt another briya for food, if avoidable. I personally am not a vegetarian, but I cannot fault one who is.October 27, 2008 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #624624ModernGuyParticipant
is it possible that just because the torah sanctions something, that does not make it ok? Slavery is sanctioned, and yet we no longer follow that practice. Perhaps not every commandment in the torah is applicable to the modern age, including the consumption of meat produced by mostly inhumane procedures.October 27, 2008 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #624625
Modern: No, that is not possible. EVERYTHIMG in the Torah is as relevant today, as it was when the Torah was given. (Yes, that even includes Karbonos – which we use Tefila in its place – since we most unfortunately have no mizbaiach.)October 27, 2008 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #624626Pashuteh YidMember
Joseph, does that include taking two wives, divorcing a woman b’al korchah, doing yibum instead of chalitza, becoming a glutton, eishes yifas toar? There are things in the Torah which are a reshus, and not obligatory. There is a concept of naval birshus hatorah. Just because the Torah permits something, does not mean it recommends it in any way. The same was true of the mayseh meraglim. We had permission to send them, but it was no mitzvah to do so.
A person can elevate himself above the bare minimum, although the Torah does not obligate him to do so. Each person must decide based on what he considers his role in life. If being a vegetarian would leave him with insufficient energy to do certain types of chesed, then he should probably choose to do chesed, and not go vegetarian. However, if he feels that he can function OK, and wants to be kinder to animals than what is required, that is also praiseworthy.October 27, 2008 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #624627
Pashuteh, The Sefardim, until very recent times, have taken more than one wife. As far as Askenazim, the Torah specifically recognizes Takanos Rabbonim, which Cheirim Rabbeinu Gershom (and some of the other concepts you mentioned) is one of.October 27, 2008 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #624628000646Participant
the torah permits getting married to a 12 year old girl after giving her father more then a shava pruta nowadays i dont think that there is any question that somone who would do somthing like that should be locked up.October 27, 2008 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #624629000646Participant
I meant to write even a girl under the age of 12October 27, 2008 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #624630jewishfeminist02Member
To get back to the original topic:
I do not support PETA at all. It is an extremist organization that gives vegetarianism and vegetarians a bad name. Much of the negative feedback that I get from people when I tell them that I am vegetarian stems from a common perception of vegetarians as PETA extremists. PETA is hypocritical, agenda-driven, and has received a lot of negative publicity of late for good reason.October 27, 2008 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #624632
Jewishfemenist you bring up a good point and I’m sure a lot of vegetarians have had to deal with just that. I personally have no problem with a person adapting to a vegetarian lifestyle I just take issue when people try to indoctronate others into their thought process through guilt, propraganada and logic that isn’t allways backed up by da’as torah. (also logging on under multiple screen names to make it seem like there are more people buying into this, is pathetic)
It is important to keep denouncing the PETA organization and understand there is nothing that they stand for that is worth supporting. As far as those who don’t want to eat meat, good for you, enjoy (there are a lot of tasty dishes to indulge in) and continue doing what you can to make this world a better place. However, ton all of those who try to change the world by abolishing meat, understand that not everything you claim to be wrong makes it so. There is credible backing in the Torah and by countless Tzaddikim through the ages.October 30, 2008 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #624634
I too do not support PETA. However, I do agree with their purpose, as in their name, “the ethical treatment of animals.” Don’t you agree with that?October 30, 2008 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #624635
their name does not reflect their purpose, not even close.
similar to: “The White Alliance to Promote Freedom” which should be called: The Skinhead Alliance to Destroy all Blacks and Jews”
what do they mean by “ethical” a gigantic spectrum of definitions. what is their definition?
their behavior clarifies the question.
if you mean that you agree with the Torahs definition of ethical, then youre talking sense.October 30, 2008 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #624636
To prevent the death and/or suffering of non-human creatures.October 30, 2008 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #624637
a minimal start but
way too general
prevent ALL suffering and death
so we cannot eat meat, cannot wear leather shoes or belts, cannot wear fur
even wool, im sure the animals dont enjoy being sheared
no spaying or neutering of pets
no eggs (cooping up of birds)
no swatting flies
no walking on the sidewalk without carefully looking down at all times to protect ants.
no use of antibiotics to kill bacteria, unless life threatening
no milk (cows should be allowed to express their freedom to roam)
no pest control (roaches, mice, ants, spiders, termites)
im getting tired and boredOctober 30, 2008 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #624638
i didnt conclude my last post properly
the answer to “what is the ethical treatment of animals?” is simple
it is: whatever the Creator [of all that exists, every person, and every animal], tells us how he requires us to treat them……Halacha, as taught to us by the Gedolim.
and not how we modern-day, goyim-soaked, little Yiddin feel in our haughty hearts.October 30, 2008 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #624639
I forgot to add: Unless absolutely necessary, or impossible to avoid.
Bacteria are not feeling.
- The topic ‘PETA’ is closed to new replies.