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- This topic has 276 replies, 43 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 6 months ago by Joseph.
November 9, 2008 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #624691BogenParticipant
Patience is a virtue.
Do you support aborting the unborn fetuses of animals, or just human abortion?November 9, 2008 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #624692marinerMember
gmab: if you are giving rights to animals, shouldn’t you be giving rights to unborn babies? the stupidity goes both ways!November 9, 2008 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #624693
Stupidity? I don’t think so.
R’ Eliezer Waldenberg permits abortion of a fetus with a life-threatening illness such as Tay-Sachs until the end of the second trimester, and abortion of a fetus with an illness that would cause it to suffer until the end of the first trimester.
The Gemara says that a fetus is considered “mere water” and not an actual life until it is forty days old.November 9, 2008 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #624694
gmab, you are now openly revolting against daas torah and the torah itself.November 9, 2008 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #624695
now?November 9, 2008 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #624696
I don’t know whether or not I am going against Da’as Torah, but REVOLTING? That I’m not doing. Besides, America is not exactly a medina shel Torah, and unless you wish to be like the radical Muslims in Britain who wish to impose shari’a on the country, don’t mix halacha with American law.
Unborn babies are UNBORN; living animals are LIVING, BREATHING, and FEELING!
If it could be determined that the female animal would not wish to carry the fetus, then yes, I WOULD support the abortion of the non-human fetus.November 9, 2008 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #624697
To quote, Mr/Ma’am, Give Me a Break, “If you’re pro-life, shouldn’t you be pro- the life of innocent animals?”
To answer your question, nope I am NOT pro life for animals.
Let me ask you this:
If you had to make a “choice,” to save the life of a kitty or the life of a baby, who would you save? There is BIG difference between the two. You can’t compare the life of a person to the life of an animal.
Me believing in pro life (humans), has no comparison to “pro life,” of animals.
You claim to not support ALL of what PETA is, but you question my beliefs on not supporting ALL pro life subjects, i.e. animals. A little contradicting, don’t you think?
p.s. A fetus has their first heartbeat at 5 weeks, (this is usually around the time a women finds out she is even pregnant).
Now I’m off to enjoy my juicy steak dinner…YUMMY!November 10, 2008 12:25 am at 12:25 am #624698
gmab, the torah says you can’t kill babies, you say you can. what’s there to not know?!
and i’m frankly shocked that ywn lets such a person express his openly anti-torah opinions here.November 10, 2008 12:33 am at 12:33 am #624699
And of course I would save the life of the baby before that of the kitten! But I wouldn’t kill the kitten.
And pro-life in babies has EVERYTHING to do with the prevention of unnecessary death/pain to innocent animals.
To clarify – if indeed I am clashing with da’as torah, it is not my direct intention to do so.November 10, 2008 3:34 am at 3:34 am #624700Will HillParticipant
“To clarify – if indeed I am clashing with da’as torah, it is not my direct intention to do so.”
So I take it, it is your “indirect” intention, or lack of care if you clash with Da’as Torah.
And who IS your Da’as Torah anyways? It sure sounds as if you act as your own “Da’as Torah.”November 10, 2008 3:47 am at 3:47 am #624701
Easy for a, “man,” to say, “pro choice,” when it is impossible for you to ever make such a decision. Stick to things you can control, like being a vegetarian.
Believe what you will, but STOP imposing those beliefs on the members of YWN. You don’t seem to like when people do it to you, so why are you doing it back?
I ENJOY & LOVE EATING MEAT! 😉 yummmmmmmmNovember 10, 2008 6:02 am at 6:02 am #624702
jewishfeminist02: While there are some that permit this, there are many more that don’t. It may seem like we are doing the baby a favor, by ending it’s suffering before birth but in reality we are depriving the neshomah a tikun in this world. It’s one thing for a couple to be tested for Tay-Sachs before they start dating, but it’s another thing to end an object that has the potential for life. So while the life of an unborn is not equal to that of the living, it’s not so simple to terminate it just because we feel bad for it.
As for the rights of the woman to end her pregnacy. Well I would like to see in Halacha where any person would have the right to do so. (Don’t go off on a tangent and bring up cases of life-threatening situatuions since there will be a different p’sak for that) Unborn doesn’t mean unliving. Any woman who has gone through pregnacy can tell you that the baby is living and quite capable of feeling stimulus. Besides hearing, tasting and seeing, science has shown that babies in utero are capable of dreaming. Animals, on the other hand, have a different level of existance. We are not allowed to tortue and harm animals needlessly and of course to minimize their suffering when you must kill an animal. You have to make sure they are fed and well treated (what that means is well debated, and I follow the P’sak of the mojority of Gedolim today that animals are treated within the constrictions of halacha) However you are not allowed to be mechalil shabbos for the life of an animal but for a human and unborn baby you would.November 10, 2008 7:04 am at 7:04 am #624703
That’s fine, but you didn’t respond to my quote from the Gemara. (And by the way, R’ Waldenberg is a renowned expert on medical ethics, so I would trust his opinion over others’.)
It’s true that most women don’t find out that they’re pregnant until after forty days. But if they do find out before then, I don’t see a problem with terminating the pregnancy.November 10, 2008 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #624704
I had never talked about my being pro-choice – I had only mentioned it in my other threads. Now “mw13” so kindly brought it up. Why do you say I’m imposing it on others at YWN? You’ll notice there’s NOTHING about it here for over 200 posts!November 10, 2008 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #624706
Give Me a Break – Glad we got that cleared up. & p.s. I love animals (like I’ve mentioned in my previous posts). Where I was from, my family was famous for owning tons of animals (their accommodations were very acceptable, we had a large house with a huge fenced in yard). At one point we had 3 dogs (a 2 dobermans, & a newfoundland), several cats (including persian, himalayan, siamese, maine coon, & mixed.), a large turtle, hamsters, over 40 various breeds of birds (my mom bred birds as well), and more!
Back then we were called, “The *_____ Farm.” hehehe.
I don’t think animals should be killed for game, non medical & non food related reasons. As for animals being killed for food, I’m all for that. And those are my beliefs.
Remember, morality is relative. I can give examples, but we’re all grown up here, and I think everyone can use their imagination’s.
*name withheldNovember 10, 2008 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #624707SJSinNYCMember
Jfem, abortions are not usually performed in the first 40 days. I think they are actually performed in the 12-15 week range.
As to late term abortions (AKA partial birth abortions) its just sick. They stick a rod into a baby’s brain to kill it. If for some reason the baby lives and is delivered, they put the baby on the side to die without any help.
There are cases where Rabbis make exceptions for abortions, but its a heter, not the norm.
I never asked, but I would assume l’halacha, the morning after pill wouldnt be a problem.November 10, 2008 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #624708
I understand where you’re coming from. However, I’d like to ask you something: Why should animal suffer and die so that you could eat it?November 10, 2008 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #624709
gmab: Because the Torah gives guidelines for how to eat meat, and even gives vertain situations where a person MUST eat meat.
Shechita doesn’t have the animals suffering. It is the most humane way of killing an animal. Yes, I know you’ve said that the treatment of the animals up to that point is an issue. That may be, but that doesn’t make it assur to eat the animal. The treatment is a separate issue.
At the store where I buy my meat, they have a sign which goes through all the ways the cattle they use are treated humanely. No force feeding, no tiny pens, etc. Would you be ok with that?November 10, 2008 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #624710
Animals are very nutritious, filled with protein, iron, omega fatty acids, B vitamins, and much more. I don’t think about the killing of the animal while eating it. I was raised for the love of eating meat, so in my eyes it is not an immoral act. I absolutely love food, and meat is just one of those foods I crave.
Your morals are against eating animals and pro choice.
My morals are for the eating of animals and pro life.November 10, 2008 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #624711
There are currently NO circumstances where one must eat meat.November 10, 2008 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #624712
gmab: I very much enjoy eating meat. My oneg Shabbos wouldn’t be the same without having a nice hot cholent with a good piece of meat in it. I’m not just saying that, I’ve had times where I didn’t have a cholent, and I told my wife it just didn’t feel like a real Shabbos without it.
Therefore, for oneg Shabbos, I need to eat meat.
Does that satisfy you?
Remember, when Moshiach comes, you will eat a Korban Pesach, and probably won’t have any problem with it.November 10, 2008 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #624713
Have you ever tried vegetarian cholent?November 10, 2008 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #624714
No, it doesn’t satisfy me. You don’t NEED meat. I also like the delicious taste of meat – but is that an excuse for an innocent animal to die?November 10, 2008 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #624715
I’ve never tried it – I just don’t eat it. You have a recipe?November 10, 2008 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #624716
No, I don’t; I’ve never made it, but tasted it many times at friends’ Shabbos tables. I recommend you try it. There are probably some good recipes on the Web.November 10, 2008 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #624717
For all those who don’t accept animal rights, try this:
Animals don’t have any intrinsic rights, but it’s a terribly unnecessary spoilage of HaShem’s beautiful creation called Life, one which can be easily avoided.
I don’t really believe that, instead choosing to think that animals deserve to live almost as much as we do. And they deserve to be free of pain.
For the rest of you, how’s that (the first part)?November 10, 2008 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #624718
I’ll have my steak.November 10, 2008 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #624719
Suit yourself. I hope you have your speech ready for after 120, I really do.November 10, 2008 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #624720anon for thisParticipant
Regarding the first argument, I do believe that the world and all of its living creatures was created for people, to enable us to serve Hashem, so it’s approppriate for people to use the world’s resources to fulfill this task. This can, in my opinion, include eating moderate amounts of meat, and in my opinion definitely includes the use of animals in medical research.
As humans, we are told not to treat animals cruelly. Also, we humans have the responsibility to use the earth’s resources wisely and do what we can to preserve them. This is a simple application of the mitzvas lo ta’aseh of “bal tashchis”, not wasting.November 10, 2008 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #624722
anon for this:
Can I ask where in the Torah it says that all the world’s living creatures a=were created to serve Man?November 10, 2008 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #624723
In Bereishis Rabba (9:4) two Sages offer parables for the verse (Bereishis 1:31), “And G-d saw all that He had done, and behold, it was very good,” as follows:
Rabbi Yonasan said: [It may be compared to] a king who married off his daughter and made a canopy and a house for her, and he plastered it and paneled it and painted it; he saw it and it was pleasing to him. He said to her: My daughter, may this canopy display grace before me at all times, just as you have displayed grace before me at this time.
In a similar vein he interprets God’s blessing to Adam and his wife following their creation in verse 28:November 10, 2008 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #624724
“Let us make man… and he will rule over the animals, and all living creatures of the earth.”
PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk articulates its credo: “A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. There is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights.”November 10, 2008 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #624725anon for thisParticipant
GMAB (is it ok if I abbreviate your name?),
I don’t believe that the world’s creatures were created to serve man; I believe that they, and everything else in the world, were created to enable people to serve Hashem. My source for this is B’raishis 1:28-30, in which Hashem tells Adam & Chava to rule the earth (and in B’raishis 9:3 people are given permission to eat meat).November 10, 2008 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #624726
anon for this:
Does it REALLY help us serve HaShem?
You may have a valid point, but consider the following: The way animals are farmed today, don’t you think that (considering it IS helping you serve HaShem) it’s a mitzva haba b’aveira (tza’ar ba’alei chayim)?
“My source for this is B’raishis 1:28-30, in which Hashem tells Adam & Chava to rule the earth…”
Tell me, do benevolent rulers eat their subjects?November 10, 2008 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #624727
Thank you Joseph for taking the time to answer that. I don’t think any one argues that we have to be carefull in how we treat animals. The aveira of Tzar Ba’ali chaim is a deoriesa and not one to be treated lightly. However, after 120 years I would be worried about coming to terms with having to explain why I didn’t use something so readily available (in this case an animal) in my service to Hashem. Life is indeed precious but for what reason are we all created? To eat drink and be merry or to recognize Hashem and serve him (while making this a better world in it’s process) So too, there is more to life then grazing and eating grass. They have a purpose and we have a right to utilize it for our needs as well.
As for after 120 years, I’m in the good company of many Tzaddikim so I don’t put to much thought behind it. I have spoken about this topic to many Robbonim and they have told me that I have nothing to worry about.November 11, 2008 12:55 am at 12:55 am #624728
“As for after 120 years, I’m in the good company of many Tzaddikim so I don’t put to much thought behind it. I have spoken about this topic to many Robbonim and they have told me that I have nothing to worry about.”
You make me laugh. Are you saying you’re such a tzaddik you have nothing to worry about?November 11, 2008 8:11 am at 8:11 am #624729
No, I think he’s saying that many tzaddikim are meat-eaters, so he thinks that if they’re not worried, he shouldn’t be.
However, I as a vegetarian am also “in the good company of many Tzaddikim”, among them the notable Rav Kook.November 11, 2008 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #624730
Many murderers ate meat too.November 11, 2008 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #624731
Many murderers wore pants too.
You clearly just want to yak and stretch out this conversation by saying the most ridiculous things.
Do you “pick and choose” a different sage for every issue, to meet your liking and approval? Or do you take one posek and follow him regardless of whether you agree or not.
You quote Rav Kook. Rav Kook also opposed women wearing pants (see his Sefer) and opposed women voting.November 11, 2008 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #624732
Does the permission to eat meat override the prohibition of tza’ar ba’alei chaim?
I don’t exactly think so.November 11, 2008 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #624733
Actually, I did not quote Rav Kook, I simply mentioned that he too was vegetarian, so I am on solid footing.
(By the way, many murderers do in fact wear pants, but most murderers are male!)
I have not read Rav Kook’s sefer and therefore cannot comment on his prohibition on pants. I have, however, read his 1919 teshuva stating that women should not vote. First, he clearly states in the beginning of the document that he is not really qualified to address the issue and is only writing an opinion because he was asked to by others. Second, remember that he did write this in 1919, at the peak of the women’s suffrage movement. His belief that women should not vote was founded on fears that he had of what such a step would lead to, as outlined later in the document. With the benefit of the passage of time, we can clearly see that these fears were, thankfully, not realized.
I won’t deny that I am influenced by modern society, and sometimes I unconsciously draw conclusions about what is right based on modernity and then have issues when this conflicts with Torah ideas of what is right. I am dealing with this in my own way and I believe that it is an inevitable problem; we just all have it to different degrees. I admire you for sticking by one posek even when you don’t agree with him. But that’s just it- there are instances where you don’t agree with him, where what he says intuitively feels wrong to you! Where do you think this intuitive feeling comes from? Even if you ignore the feeling, you can’t get away from the fact that it exists.
I am not yet a parent, but I can well imagine the tremendous feeling of conflict that faced Avraham Avinu in this week’s parsha. Even putting aside the fact that Hashem had said that an entire nation would come out of Avraham through the line of Yitzchak- who did not have any offspring at the time of the Akeidah- how could Avraham raise his hand to slay his own child? Ideally, we should strive to be on Avraham’s level and have complete faith, but this is not always possible. Child sacrifice is one of those things that seems intuitively and undoubtedly wrong. Yet Avraham accepted it without question. If I were in his position, I think I would fail this test utterly, as would most of today’s Jews.
So, to answer your question directly, I’ll admit that I do “pick and choose” at times, but I would never do something that all poskim unanimously prohibit. (For example, secular society clearly sees nothing wrong with premarital relations, but I recognize that there is no allowance for this within a Torah framework and therefore would not ever consider engaging in such relations.) I would like to be in a place where I can be more consistent in my observance of halacha, and this is something that I am working on, but I am simply not there yet.November 11, 2008 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #624734
“I would never do something that all poskim unanimously prohibit.”
That isn’t saying much.
(And with that philosophy, you could pretty much do almost whatever you want — you’ll always be able to find and pick some “Rabbi” somewhere that allows you to do whatever you want.
In fact there is new computer program developed in Israel. Its called Shailos & Teshuvos. It has 3 steps. Step 1, you type is your shaila. Step 2, you type in the teshuva YOU want. Step 3, it produces the name of a Rabbi that agrees with your teshuva.)November 11, 2008 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #624735
GMAB, feminist: if you do some research, you’ll find that Rav Kook wasn’t really a vegetarian. He wrote a pamphlet about his vision for a perfect world, where he said that maybe people would be on the level before the flood and wouldn’t eat meat anymore, but he never advocated being a vegetarian now. He ate only vegetables for a small while for health reasons, but was not a vegetarian for most of his life.
Do some research, you’ll find it.November 12, 2008 2:17 am at 2:17 am #624736
Who ever said that animals are not treated ethically that such a debate must be commenced as to whether or not they SHOULD be treated ethically? Why can’t I claim that they ARE treated ethically? Since when does a human being get to mandate how animals should be treated? If I breed and raise the cow why cant I keep it in a pen a force feed it. Do any of the shotim on this website know what a ben pakuah is? I’ll bet you dont. I’ll bet you didnt know that you dont have to shecht it; that you can just walk right up with a chain-saw. Kosher as a carrot. If the torah says you can do it, who are you to argue. Oh, I must have forgotten that you can just make up whatever you want and claim its in the bible. The feminist is no different than Jews for Jesus. If you say its in the bible then it is. Or perhaps The Feminist is different because she’s jewish. only jews have a right to their opinion.
And whats all this about treating animals humanely? They’re not human. Or is that only an opinion.November 12, 2008 3:11 am at 3:11 am #624737
GMAB: I’m glad that I have made you laugh (yes I know this is just an expression like us being the apathetic imbeciles you say we are) but regardless…
Quote #1: You make me laugh. Are you saying you’re such a tzaddik you have nothing to worry about?
Response: While I can see how you would come to think that was the point I was trying to state, however when looking in context, my reference was in regards to eating meat. There are plenty of things that I will (then and now) have to worry about but eating meat isn’t one of them. I have a source from the Torah that permits me to eat meat. I have the shulchan orach and mishnah brurah that states how meat is preferable to eat in many situations and I have the example of many many Tzaddikim and Gedolim who have no problem today eating meat.
Quote #2: Many murderers ate meat too.
Response: Thank you, but I already knew that. So have many electricians, plumbers and I would even bet many doctors, lawyers and presidents eat meat too. Eating meat does not make me a Tzaddik nor does not eating it. It’s the big picture of all our actions that make us who we are.
Quote #3: Does the permission to eat meat override the prohibition of tza’ar ba’alei Chaim?
I don’t exactly think so.
Response: No, it doesn’t, but then again you have failed to provide a situation where eating all meat and fowl is considered Tzar Ba’ali Chaim. Being that I have connections to many individuals who have worked in meat and chicken slaughter houses I have taken the time to call them up and have yet to find a place that would be problematic. Then I spoke to several local (and not so local) poskim who deal with meat” kashrus and asked them what they feel about it and they all said it was ok both regards to kashrus and Tzar Ba’alei Chaim.
So, do I think that there are “some” people who are abuse animals for profit and gain…Yes I have seen it and have spoken out against it. Is there a reason to stop eating meat…….no there isn’t. I have spoken to Da’as Torah and have yet to see any benefit of going above and beyond what they our representatives of G-d have spoken to me.
Quote #4 (out of order but placed last since it was not directed towards me)
Does it REALLY help us serve HaShem?
You may have a valid point, but consider the following: The way animals are farmed today, don’t you think that (considering it IS helping you serve HaShem) it’s a Mitzvah haba b’aveira (tza’ar ba’alei chayim)?
Response: This is your opinion. You seem to be quite out numbered by the many leaders of our generation who do eat meat.
Now, after all is said and done. It’s nice that you have a cause. It’s nice that you live towards something that you believe to be important. However, you still have yet to bring a proof why we shouldn’t eat meat and you have failed to provide proof that animals are being treated poorly in all situations. You do a disservice to us and yourself to try to guilt us into believing in your cause. The bottom line is that I see nothing wrong and can see that many others who much bigger and greater than I am feel the same way. Somehow if there would be a legitimate concern for this, then there would be more vegetarians out there and yet there are not.November 12, 2008 3:28 am at 3:28 am #624738
gmab, a heard a story that a great rabbi (I believe it was about the Vilna Goan, but I’m not sure) wouldn’t eat olives because the gemara says they make you forget, but once a year he’d purposely eat olives to show that he’s not not using something that Hashem put in this world. Similarly, another, more recent great rabbi (I believe it was Rav Palm, but again no guarantees) said it’s an inyun to see the swiss alps, because Hashem only put them there for us to get pleasure from. So, gmab, what will you say after 120 when Hashem asks you “gmab, why didn’t you eat the tasty, juicy steak that I gave you to enjoy?”November 12, 2008 8:14 am at 8:14 am #624739
Joseph, let me amend my statement: I would never do something that all ORTHODOX poskim unanimously prohibit.
Of course, there are many people in the world with the title of “Rabbi” who permit actions that I feel are wrong. I am referring here to rabbis of more liberal movements, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. I have a great deal of respect for these rabbis, but I lead a different lifestyle than they do and would never pasken according to their teshuvot. So, no, I don’t do “whatever I want”.
torahls1, you ask “Since when does a human being get to mandate how animals should be treated?”
Since it says in Bereshit that we should “fill the earth and dominate it.” With this dominance comes a responsibility to ensure that when we use animals for our own purposes, we treat them humanely. This does not mean treating them as if they are human; if that were the case, we certainly would not be permitted to eat meat! Rather, it means remembering that WE are human, and as such are capable of feeling compassion. We need to exercise our compassionate natures in our dealings with animals.
For reasons that I hope are obvious to you, I’m not going to respond to the rest of your illogical rant.November 12, 2008 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #624740
“I would never do something that all ORTHODOX poskim unanimously prohibit.”
This doesn’t change one iota my previous response to your comment “I would never do something that all poskim unanimously prohibit.”
“Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. I have a great deal of respect for these rabbis, but I lead a different lifestyle than they do and would never pasken according to their teshuvot.”
Thats a fig-leaf. Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist are not Judaism. I also presume you would never pasken according Wahhabi Islam.November 12, 2008 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #624742
“Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist are not Judaism.”
Huh? And how do you explain that?
HaShem DIDN’T give us “juicy, tasty steaks” to eat. He gave us living, breathing, unprocessed ANIMALS! The case with the olives? Olives are a ready-to-eat food. So your story is just plain silly.
I’m sorry, but I don’t exactly think that slaughterhouses are free of tza’ar ba’alei chaim. I’d like you to bring me some backing to that statement.
torahls1 (formerly “torahis1”?)
Of course I knew what a “ben pakua” is. That does not mean that animals can be treated unethically – have you ever heard of tza’ar ba’alei chaim?November 12, 2008 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #624743
“Huh? And how do you explain that?”
You wouldn’t understand anyways.
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