Plastic surgery and Yiddishkeit

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  • #2039306
    Kokoshcake
    Participant

    A woman asked a Sheila and got a green light to get plastic surgery, (ex: a nose job). Yes, it is technically muttar, but is it frowned upon? Should she be nervous to โ€œalterโ€ her face? Does it show (Chas vishalom!) a lack in her Bitachon in Hakadosh Baruch Huโ€™s creations?

    #2039361
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Forget plastic survey, Kokoshcake taste best!!! lets talk about the merits of Kokosh

    #2039376
    joshua015
    Participant

    Why in the world should this be a problem?

    #2039384
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is an issur not to harm, cut oneself but than how can we do milah? So, if the benefit is greater than the loss, it is mutar. The woman feels bad about herself, but the plastic surgery makes her feel good.

    #2039393
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    You’re raising very important concerns. The tzitz Eliezer mentions the argument against plastic surgery, that it is not healing, but rather saying to Hashem that his handiwork is faulty cv”s. There are also the issues of putting one’s self im danger, injuring one’s self unnecessarily, and vanity/gaavah. Some poskim allow it especially for women if it is to improve their appearance, and this is the position of rav Moshe feinstein in c.m. 2, 66. (though there is a simple distinction between facial defects and internal augmentations, which no teshuvos have been written about, as it involves a severe breach of tznius). Rav shlomo zalman differentiates between surgery removing a very noticeable blemish that causes psychological discomfort and social ostracization, and merely beautification to improve one’s appearance – the former is permitted and the later is not.

    Aish.com has a very good article on the topic. However it is not the accepted practice among yereim veshlaymim and bnos yisroel kedoshos, unless there’s a very distinct blemish that will harm one’s ability to find a shidduch/be damaging psychologically/ etc..

    #2039399
    Avi K
    Participant

    The Tzitz Eliezer wants to say that but it is very puzzling. Does it show a lack of bitachon for someone to undergo any medical procedure?The question is whether cosmetic surgery is considered a medical procedure that would would allow wounding the person. This is a machloket among the poskim. See “Judaism and Cosmetic Surgery”by Daniel Eisenberg, M.D. online.

    Who are these people who “frown upon” it and what is their basis? If it is muttar it is muttar. If it is assur it is assur. A person might be able to be machmir on himself but he has no right to force others to do so. If it is muttar, let them frown. The muscle exercises might be good for them.

    #2039413
    ujm
    Participant

    It is a hiiddur mitzvahfor the kokosh to be rich in chocolate and eaten while warm.

    #2039419
    1a2b3c
    Participant

    Whoever she asked the first question to, she should ask the second question as well.

    #2039438
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    For Hungarians it is kakaos (made with cocoa) whereas kokosh (kakas) is a rooster.

    #2039458
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @UJM, is kokosh better with hot coffee or cold milk?

    #2039463
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Kol Aryeh interprets the conversation between the min (apikarus) and Rava in Meseches Shabbos. Rava was so involved in his learning that he pressed his foot on his hand and blood was gushing out. The min commented that you are a hurried nation like your action by saying naaseh before nishma, how did you know you can keep the Torah before hearing it? So he explains that the min was questioning how Avraham Avinu waited to be commanded to do millah before doing it. If he felt that you are that allowed to wound yourself but I see from your actions that your view is that you can wound yourself, so it must be that is greater when commanded (metzuva veosah) but then why did the Jews say naaseh before nishma. Rava told him that we trust Hashem like a father who will not ask us to do something we cannot do.

    #2039464
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Reb E, do you know the words of Szรณl a kakas mรกr? wife grandmother still sings it and cried everytime

    #2039465
    ujm
    Participant

    CS: Cold milk, hands down. Hot coffee is good afterwards, especially on Shabbos morning.

    #2039487
    philosopher
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, as an Hungarian descendant I disagree. Every Hungarian I know from my childhood, those who came straight out of postwar Europe, including my grandparents, pronounced it “koskosh” cake.

    #2039521
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, go to youtube and search on kalever rebbe singing for Szol a kakas mar. The story goes that the Kalever Rebbe Rav Yitzchak Eisik Taub ztz’l heard the melody from a peasant and he liked it, bought it off from him and the peasant forgot it.

    #2039524
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Phil, you are a descendant and I am a born Hungarian, so they must have had a nickname (bece nev) for it. Google ‘kakaos sutemeny’ (baked cocoa cake). I speak Hungarian fluently even though I am 62 years here in America. I was 9 years old when I left with a Hungarian mother tongue being over two years in Austria waiting to come here.

    #2039530
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, it you want to hear different versions go to youtube and search ‘szol a kakas’.

    #2039536
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avirah,

    For all you and I know, all the yeraim and shelaimem have been getting these procedures for decades. They just have the decency not to talk about it. Now you can go make a whole ruckus about it, and the very people who you are holding up as examples will join your cause, because they do not see themselves as perfect role models. (They will think that their role models must have told you that.) and it will be one more detail of the yeshiva world that gets changed by your ignorance.

    #2039537
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear 1a2b3c,

    Talk about Judaism in reverse! If it is okay whatever permitted the practice in the first place, (Rabbi, Sefer, Theory, Online post) than that ipso facto is an allowance for whatever feelings one has. On an issue about feelings, one goes to a professional therapist. A sefer cannot help you with what your feelings are.

    #2039547
    bob hample1
    Participant

    plastic surgery is 100 percent asur (except for medical reasons).
    Hashem made u how u are and its not your job to change that

    #2039574
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Bob,

    Way to go! Never manage your anger, lusts, fears, or sloth. Do not overcome your limitations or emphasize your strengths. And if nothing gets better, that is exactly the way Hashem intended it to be.

    #2039578
    Kuvult
    Participant

    I don’t know about Charedim but it’s a well known “Secret” in the non-orthodox and Modern Orthodox that many girls get nose jobs in high school. It’s not that their noses are so big (some are) but because of the whole Jewish and big noses thing they’re overly sensitive. No one admits to having a nose job they were all getting a “Deviated Septum” fixed and while already being worked on the Doctor fixes their nose.

    #2039589
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    bob, I don’t agree with you as milah, circumcision proves the opposite. It is OK to make one feel good to change for the better. A person’s mental health takes precedence over everything else. Bal tashchis is allowed when the benefit is greater than the loss as over here. Medical includes mental health. The Torah was not given for hinderance.

    #2039591
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    nomesorah, I applaud you. Your eloquent reply indicates your mesorah.

    #2039602

    Reb E – those are nice thoughts but I am not sure halacha agrees with you.

    #2039648
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I called a Moreh Haroah and agreed with my view.

    #2039661
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This is related to the abortion thread where having a deformed child
    will destroy one mentally.

    #2039668

    Again – nice thoughts but you should not be presenting this like it is a one size fits all. It is absolutely NOT about “I would just be so much happier that way” or “I just can’t cope with this”. There is a thorough process involved in determining if a heter is warranted in both abortion and plastic surgery – which I am NOT equating by the way.

    #2039669
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If one is good looking but wants to make themselves more beautiful is a different story.

    #2039670
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Reb E, you never answered me if you know the words of szol a kakas?

    #2039678
    Health
    Participant

    RE -“This is related to the abortion thread where having a deformed child
    will destroy one mentally.”

    Acc. to Rav Moshe it’s Still Osser.
    But even according to the Tzitz Eliezer, I’m not sure if Abortion would be Mutter nowadays.
    I don’t know OB even though we are trained in many fields including OB/Gyn.
    I used to have a neighbor who became pregnant, (A Chiddush in Lakewood), anyways they told her to abort because of Viability of the Fetus.
    They said brain tissue is missing.
    She went and had the Kid anyways.
    The kid isn’t even Retarded, let alone she wasn’t Not viable!
    Maybe she’s a little slow.

    The OB was Very Wrong!
    I don’t know if he did it by mistake or on purpose.
    But this presents a Different Question.
    The question that was brought to the Poisek was when the Doctors knew.
    Not with Doctors that could be Liars.
    I blame the DemonCrats because Clinton (Billy Boy) started with Changing the Practice of Medicine.
    We were the Top in the World!

    #2039686
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I know the words, even more than what the Kalever ztz’l sang as the last stanza, questioning why is that not now already where the answer is because ื•ืžืคื ื™ ื—ื˜ืื™ื ื• ื’ืœื™ื ื• ืžืืจืฆื™ื ื• because of our sins we were exiled from our land. If you know Hungarian go to the zsido dot com site.

    Szol a kakas mar
    majd megviradt mar
    zold erdoben sik mezoben setal egy madar
    de micsoda madar?
    sarga a laba es kek a szarnya engem oda var
    var madar varj, te csak mindig varj
    ha az Isten neked rendel tied leszek mar
    de mikor lesz az mar?
    ื•ื‘ื™ื‘ื ื” ื”ืžืงื“ืฉ ืขื™ืจ ืฆื™ื•ืŸ ืชืžืœื akkor lesz az mar
    de miert nincs az mar?
    ื•ืžืคื ื™ ื—ื˜ืื™ื ื• ื’ืœื™ื ื• ืžืืจืฆื™ื ื•
    azert nincs az mar.

    #2039687
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    health, in SA by shabbos and yom kippur it says we rely on doctors. If we cannot trust doctors, whom do we trust?

    #2039697
    Health
    Participant

    RE -“health, in SA by shabbos and yom kippur it says we rely on doctors. If we cannot trust doctors, whom do we trust?”

    Why don’t you tell the Truth?
    We trust them to Be Machmir on Pikuach Nefesh.
    So we trust them to desecrate the Shabbos & eat on YK.
    Like the Story with the Briskers.

    But you want to say we can Trust them Nowadays to kill?!?
    I never heard such a Krumme Sevorah!

    If a Rabbi wants to apply the Tzitz Eliezer’s Heter nowadays, he’s got to check up on the Doc – if he’s Reliable!

    #2039701
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    I asked my grandmother who grew up in Uhiel and lived in kishkerish unitl 57 minus the years in the camps and she said its KOKASH cake. We need the OP chime in

    #2039711

    Did not know about noses … I was wondering whether it is my fault that I notice that Jewish men have “Jewish” noses and women do not … A simpler case is braces – many girls seem to be doing that. Is this also negating what Hashem gave you? One could say that if “everyone” is doing that, then one who does not is at a disadvantage. Although, there will be always someone special looking for a genuine item!

    #2039797
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Avira what is the brisker shir of kokosh cake?

    #2039911
    philosopher
    Participant

    commonsaychel, I don’t know where in Hungary Rev Eliezer grew up, but both of my grandparents grew up in completely different areas in Hungary and they both pronounced it kokosh cake. As did my Satmer Hungarian friends’ mothers, as did all Hungarians I grew up with. Perhaps the Hungarian Yiddish speakers pronounced it kokosh cake and those who spoke Hungarian pronounced it differently.

    #2039928
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    I just rechecked with her and and she said the real way to pronounce it is KoKo-Osh cake

    #2039925
    philosopher
    Participant

    People are vain, shallow and have their heads in the wrong place for doing plastic surgery…if they are average to beautiful.

    People are making themselves look better and feel good about themselves by fixing something that needs to be corrected…if they have an extremely prominent and ugly feature that stands out and is repulsive.

    So basically this topic is not a one size fits all.

    It is extremely repulsive the way many women keep on “fixing” that what is perfectly imperfect and beautifully unique, their brains are constantly questioning how they can “make themselves more beautiful” and attractive and it often turns into an obsession.

    On the other hand, if someone is born with a prominent and repulsive feature, there is nothing wrong with correcting that feature, I would think it’s like correcting a birth defect.

    #2039967
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Philosopher, I was born in Sopron, Hungary. As you are not Hungarian, so it sounds like that to you but Hungarian is not English where everything is always pronounced the same way. The accent is always placed in the beginning. They have double letters cs, gy, ly, ny, sz, ty and zs. They are always pronounced the same way. The are vowels without dots or dashes which are pronounced one way and vowels with one dash and two dashes, one dot or two dots pronounced a different way. For example, an o with two dots or two dashes are pronounced differently and change the meaning. There are sounds that are not available in English but available in German.

    #2039968
    ujm
    Participant

    Here’s a silly question — how common is plastic surgery in the frum community?

    #2039974
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, Thank you. In Hungarian every letter is pronounced always the same way.

    #2039976
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The hardest word to pronounce for a Non-Hungarian is gyertya, a candle which has two double letters from the above list.

    #2039981
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Hogy Vagy? How are you? tyuk, a chicken. In Hungarian we use a ‘v’ instead of a ‘w’, double v, not like in German. Magyar – Hungarian The Hungarian’s say ‘ื•ื“ื‘ืจืชื ‘ื‘ื – beszelni magyarul, speaking Hungarian.

    #2039989
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Cs, at least 8 oz… Gotta be on the safe side.

    #2039995
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    My wife Grandmother best friend name was Gyongy and I could never pronouce it

    #2040015
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, it is written as Gyongyi. See howtopronounce dot com/gyongyi, who is named after pearls.

    #2040027
    philosopher
    Participant

    Rev Eliezer, I think the mystery of Hungarian pronunciation of kokosh can be cleared up with the fact that you spoke Hungarian, as you mentioned that was your first language, and Hungarian Jews whose first language was Yiddish pronounced it “kokosh”.

    #2040037
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    philosopher, look at reply # 2039928

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