December 16, 2008 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #588893talMember
As uncomfortable as this topic is to present to men who say they attend minyan and learn and women who say they are jewish mothers and wives, I think someone should say something that is apparent.
Simply, there is a sheer lack of respect for other people on the forum.
You may think your opinion is more valid but the poster you are communicating with thinks their opinion is more valid.
We all follow Torah as we see it. Seeing indicates a perception. So, officially, as long as you are following a rav who is a yarei elokim who cares?
We are in galut as is.
Even if you reply claiming that there are no negative feelings on your part, you may not realize that you are presenting your opinions in a harsh manner.
A plea to all, try kindness and respect when presenting a differing opinion.December 16, 2008 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #630959Y.W. EditorKeymaster
Could not agree more.December 16, 2008 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #630960jphoneMember
Important point. Just because I say I am a 53 year old male, or a 22 year old female or a Rav or (you get the point), does not make it so. The virtual anonymity afforded by the web has allowed people who would otherwise not be given a forum, often for valid reasons, a forum, to say what they want, when they want, how they want. They can state things as fact, make up “true stories” say things just to infuriate other posters and you will never know.
In fact, while your words say so, I dont believe the original message here was written by someone “just entering adulthood”. Not that I am calling you a liar, rather, I take anonymous pleas, rants and comments as just that.December 16, 2008 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #630961shindyMember
Yosher koach!!!!December 17, 2008 12:20 am at 12:20 am #630963Ashrecha YisroelParticipant
Very good point.
P.S. (I’m still offended by kefirah)December 17, 2008 12:45 am at 12:45 am #630964DocParticipant
The concern is that if someone posts something counter to the Torah, like “live and let live” when it comes to something as clear-cut as driving on Shabbos (an actual discussion here, believe it or not), even if they say it nice and logically (i.e. “I don’t drive on Shabbos, but if someone else does who am I to judge?”) we must protest such gibberish as loudly as we can. There is no room for “disagreement” (or to “agree to disagree”) on such issues.
And its bad enough for someone to C’V drive on Shabbos, whether he is unaware or whatever, himself. But its quite another for someone (especially one who calls themselves Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos) to attempt to publicly JUSTIFY such aveiros. That cannot stand.December 17, 2008 1:52 am at 1:52 am #630965asdfghjklParticipant
great point!!!!!!!December 17, 2008 3:21 am at 3:21 am #630966talMember
I said I would not reply to avoid debate. But, this should not prompt debate. This was something I felt was important enough to go around my original statement to reply. Yes, my rationalization is explained below for those interested.
Nothing I said was false.
I am 20. Is that a young adult?
I am 20-year-old college student and, according to my plan, will finish at 23 turning 24 depending on the path Hashem sets for me. Because this is a fairly rare situation for my programs, I would prefer not to give any other personal information other than what I revealed in a few other forums. I think I may have already revealed too much.
I just wanted to say that fighting is painful for those who watch. Think of a husband and wife fighting; think of the pain of their children; think of the pain of the grandparents; and think of the pain of their siblings. Both sides have a view point but who cares who is right or wrong. Look at the affect of the fight.
Please, be careful. Even on the internet, your words have an effect.
For those who intend to sleep tonight (finals exam period so I’ll be up for a few days!), have a good night.December 17, 2008 4:08 am at 4:08 am #630967mw13Participant
Thank you tal! YWN could indeed be a lot better if everyone on it would be respectful and tolerant of each other. Of course, aside from making YWN a better place, not being negative can save you from CH”V being ovur lashon hara, as explained in further detail in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shmiras-halashon .December 17, 2008 9:40 am at 9:40 am #630969
As opposed to people like you who have tolerance & don’t insult or demean anyone.
I guess the post on the at risk teenager thread must have been from someone else using your screen name.December 17, 2008 11:42 am at 11:42 am #630970NobodyMember
Tal, as many people on this site know, I regulary remind people to think before writing. I also remind everyone to be mindful of offending other posters etc etc. I am sure by now I come over as a bore, a spolisport and who knows what else!!
I am impressed by your eloquence at such a ‘young’ age and at your maturity and have no doubt whatever direction your life takes you, you will do well.December 17, 2008 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #630971
to the original poster – yashar koach for your inspiring and much needed words!
its just incredibly sad to see that various posters here have already attacked Tal, suggesting that he is a liar, and further attempting to justify much of the rhetoric that goes on here which essentially boils down to this sentiment: “if you don’t hold exactly like me/my rebbe, what you are doing is treif/assur/you have no chelek l’olam ha’ba (R”L)”
if the posters on this board really think that this type of ka’naus is what HKBH wants from us (as opposed to the way of respectfulness and pleasentness – ‘darchei noam’ described by Tal), i don’t know what else to say, but klal yisroel is in big trouble. i would be curious as to what yeshiva these posters attended, and ask them what rosh yeshiva/godol would give his haskama to such an approach which seeks to villify and degrade all members of klal yisroel who are not exactly like me instead of treating them with simple kovod ha’briyos (let alone ahavas yisroel!!).December 17, 2008 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #630972RBS_gimmelParticipant
torahis1: you’re completely missing the point what doc’s trying to say. Imagine your spouse (assuming you’re married) repeatedly telling you “I love you”, and then a minute later physically slapping you. Those love words are meaningless. Same thing with Hashem. If somesone says “G-d I love you, I’m a good Jew at heart, etc.”, and the next minute’s he’s driving on Shabbos – well you get the comparison.
Doc, you’re 100% (not 50%) correct. This “live and let live” smecks of American liberalism, which is very foreign to authentic Yiddishkeit.December 17, 2008 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #630973jewishfeminist02Member
“While we all know (hopefully) that driving on Shabbos is against the Torah and while we all also should call out anyone justifying such behavior….However, we really are in no position to judge or criticize anyone who does such things, just because you may have the benefit of a Yeshiva education.”
Which is it? Should we “call them out” or just leave them alone because “we are in no position to criticize”?December 17, 2008 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #630974
“If the posters on this board really think that this type of ka’naus is what HKBH wants from us (as opposed to the way of respectfulness and pleasentness – ‘darchei noam’ described by Tal), i don’t know what else to say, but klal yisroel is in big trouble. i would be curious as to what yeshiva these posters attended, and ask them what rosh yeshiva/godol would give his haskama to such an approach which seeks to villify and degrade all members of klal yisroel who are not exactly like me instead of treating them with simple kovod ha’briyos (let alone ahavas yisroel!!).”
That’s funny, I was just about to write the same thing about you.December 17, 2008 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #630975SJSinNYCMember
So tempting to respond…but since I’m already having a bad day, I will avoid responding. I would rather answer when I am calm.December 17, 2008 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #630976
kindly explain what you mean. i try to do my best to address other posters here (and their opinions) with respect, even if i disagree with them.December 17, 2008 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #630977Chuck SchwabParticipant
notpashut (correctly) pointed out that you are an MO “kanoi” that vilifies and degrades Chareidim in subtle, yet obvious, terminology. By you declaring the Gedolim’s “kanois” is as such.December 17, 2008 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #630978Chuck SchwabParticipant
Doc, notpashut, and kitzur_dot_net:
Thank you for speaking the Emes!December 18, 2008 12:19 am at 12:19 am #630979Bais Yaakov maydelParticipant
Thank you Tal. I think you said very well what many of us have been thinkingDecember 18, 2008 12:37 am at 12:37 am #630980
it’s funny you refer to me as a “MO “kanoi” who “vilifies and degrades Chareidim” – i probably went to the same “chareidi” (we never had that word back then) yeshivos many of the posters here probably went to. most people would classify my dress as “yeshivish” (for the sake of reference, not because it really matters), and i consider myself a part of the “chareidi” community.
the ideas i discuss come from a yeshivishe’ background (not MO), and CH”V i would never want to degrade our communities, rather to be upfront about what is REALLY going on. there are many of us who are a bit older who realize that many, many things about our communities have changed over the years – many for better, and, unfortunately, many for worse. YWN and the ‘coffee room’, to some degree, allow members of the “yeshiva world” (whatever that means) to discuss these issues.
one of the issues that may have gotten worse over the years might be the deterioration in middos among the yeshiva community, especially with regard to other yiddin. someone sincerely makes a request that we should discuss matters with respect to one another, and he is bombarded with attacks on his honesty, etc., and ‘svoros’ explaining to him why he is wrong. is a call to improve our ‘bein adam lechaveiro’ truly so offensive to you??December 18, 2008 1:56 am at 1:56 am #630981tzippiMember
For those in the EST, group therapy is ending with maariv, so get it in soon 😉December 18, 2008 3:25 am at 3:25 am #630983dont have internetMember
“For those in the EST, group therapy is ending with maariv, so get it in soon”
im confusedDecember 18, 2008 4:09 am at 4:09 am #630984mw13Participant
notpashut, chuck: All zalmy said is that there are many different sheytos on many things, and zeh vizeh divrai elokim chaim. If you want to exept chumros for yourself, good for you, but shoving your chumros down someone else’s throat is a shaylah of bal tishaktzu. Blasting someone for encouraging us to show some respect for those that aren’t our exact copies, on a topic started with a plea to show respect to your fellow jew, is slightly disturbing.
That said, zalmy: I believe you may have crossed a line when you complained about “the deterioration in middos among the yeshiva community, especially with regard to other yiddin”. Saying something negative about a group of people is like saying lashon hara on each one individually.December 18, 2008 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #630985
“I try to do my best to address other posters here (and their opinions) with respect, even if i disagree with them.”
From all the posters who have an anti chareidi agenda, your posts rank high up on the list of nastiness, viciousness & disrespect.
“I probably went to the same “chareidi” (we never had that word back then) yeshivos many of the posters here probably went to. most people would classify my dress as “yeshivish” (for the sake of reference, not because it really matters), and i consider myself a part of the “chareidi” community.”
Now it all makes sense.December 18, 2008 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #630986
to clarify, i include myself in the ‘yeshiva community’ i was describing (which seems to have lost its bearings over the years with regard to middos). as i explained above, i was ch”v not trying to “bash” some other group, but rather to discuss what i (and others) perceive to be a problem within our own communities (and by extension, within ourselves). i think that many of the topics in the ‘coffee room’ can be classified as discussions of problems within our communities, which is certainly important as long as we remain civil, respectful, and constructive.December 18, 2008 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #630987
What is this new tone of respect & tolerance we are hearing from you?
Are you becomeing a Ba’al T’shuva?
We’d gladly listen to ALL your complaints if they were addressed to us like that.December 18, 2008 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #630988tzippiMember
Don’t have internet: EST = eastern standard time. I was being tongue in cheek. And truly, hope I didn’t offend anyone.December 19, 2008 12:57 am at 12:57 am #630989
you insinuate that i have been disrespectful/intolerant in my previous posts. i do not recall any such instance, and if i have done so, i sincerely apologize to you and anyone else i may have offended.
as for being a ‘baal teshuva’, i’m happy to accept such a title, considering what chazal had to say about baalei teshuva.
the only point i was trying to make (echoing the original poster’s) is that we should be able to disagree with one anther’s opinions respectfully, and that someone who holds a different shitta than you is no less of a yid because of it.
if i have voiced concern in the past over various trends in our community, it is from the point of view of one member of a family pointing something out to another member because they are seriously concerned for their well being. we have a mitzva of ‘hocheiach tochiach’ when our words can have a positive effect. this is not a stira to ‘ahavas yisroel’. rather, if we truly care about one another we should want to help each other if we are able to have a positive effect. and this is best (and probably only) done with respect and derech eretz.December 19, 2008 1:30 am at 1:30 am #630990dont have internetMember
i know what est is—-i was just being confused-dont mind meDecember 19, 2008 9:09 am at 9:09 am #630991
WOW. It’s good I’m not a Tzaddik Gomur, otherwise I’d have to leave!December 21, 2008 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #630992amichaiParticipant
you guys really blasted zalmy. for a recently new member like myself,i have no idea what went on. maybe we should not point fingers at people but just say what we need to improve here.January 12, 2009 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #630993areivimzehlazehParticipant
WOW- WHAT AN OXYMORON OF A THREAD HERE. completely defeated the original purpose. how sadJanuary 12, 2009 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #630994PMMember
Yeah, let’s fight about who’s the nicest guy on YW.January 12, 2009 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #630995oomisParticipant
It boils down to one thing – just show a little derech eretz. When you disagree, don’t be disagreeable (this is not directed at anyone here).January 13, 2009 12:20 am at 12:20 am #630996gabsMember
ITS FINE BOOSHA MICHAPERES!!
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