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As uncomfortable as this topic is to present to men who say they attend minyan and learn and women who say they are jewish mothers and wives, I think someone should say something that is apparent.
Simply, there is a sheer lack of respect for other people on the forum.
You may think your opinion is more valid but the poster you are communicating with thinks their opinion is more valid.
We all follow Torah as we see it. Seeing indicates a perception. So, officially, as long as you are following a rav who is a yarei elokim who cares?
We are in galut as is.
Even if you reply claiming that there are no negative feelings on your part, you may not realize that you are presenting your opinions in a harsh manner.
A plea to all, try kindness and respect when presenting a differing opinion.
Could not agree more.
Important point. Just because I say I am a 53 year old male, or a 22 year old female or a Rav or (you get the point), does not make it so. The virtual anonymity afforded by the web has allowed people who would otherwise not be given a forum, often for valid reasons, a forum, to say what they want, when they want, how they want. They can state things as fact, make up “true stories” say things just to infuriate other posters and you will never know.
In fact, while your words say so, I dont believe the original message here was written by someone “just entering adulthood”. Not that I am calling you a liar, rather, I take anonymous pleas, rants and comments as just that.
Yosher koach!!!!
Very good point.
Shkoiach.
P.S. (I’m still offended by kefirah)
The concern is that if someone posts something counter to the Torah, like “live and let live” when it comes to something as clear-cut as driving on Shabbos (an actual discussion here, believe it or not), even if they say it nice and logically (i.e. “I don’t drive on Shabbos, but if someone else does who am I to judge?”) we must protest such gibberish as loudly as we can. There is no room for “disagreement” (or to “agree to disagree”) on such issues.
And its bad enough for someone to C’V drive on Shabbos, whether he is unaware or whatever, himself. But its quite another for someone (especially one who calls themselves Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos) to attempt to publicly JUSTIFY such aveiros. That cannot stand.
great point!!!!!!!
Thank you tal! YWN could indeed be a lot better if everyone on it would be respectful and tolerant of each other. Of course, aside from making YWN a better place, not being negative can save you from CH”V being ovur lashon hara, as explained in further detail in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shmiras-halashon .
torahis1,
As opposed to people like you who have tolerance & don’t insult or demean anyone.
I guess the post on the at risk teenager thread must have been from someone else using your screen name.
Tal, as many people on this site know, I regulary remind people to think before writing. I also remind everyone to be mindful of offending other posters etc etc. I am sure by now I come over as a bore, a spolisport and who knows what else!!
I am impressed by your eloquence at such a ‘young’ age and at your maturity and have no doubt whatever direction your life takes you, you will do well.
to the original poster – yashar koach for your inspiring and much needed words!
its just incredibly sad to see that various posters here have already attacked Tal, suggesting that he is a liar, and further attempting to justify much of the rhetoric that goes on here which essentially boils down to this sentiment: “if you don’t hold exactly like me/my rebbe, what you are doing is treif/assur/you have no chelek l’olam ha’ba (R”L)”
if the posters on this board really think that this type of ka’naus is what HKBH wants from us (as opposed to the way of respectfulness and pleasentness – ‘darchei noam’ described by Tal), i don’t know what else to say, but klal yisroel is in big trouble. i would be curious as to what yeshiva these posters attended, and ask them what rosh yeshiva/godol would give his haskama to such an approach which seeks to villify and degrade all members of klal yisroel who are not exactly like me instead of treating them with simple kovod ha’briyos (let alone ahavas yisroel!!).
torahis1: you’re completely missing the point what doc’s trying to say. Imagine your spouse (assuming you’re married) repeatedly telling you “I love you”, and then a minute later physically slapping you. Those love words are meaningless. Same thing with Hashem. If somesone says “G-d I love you, I’m a good Jew at heart, etc.”, and the next minute’s he’s driving on Shabbos – well you get the comparison.
Doc, you’re 100% (not 50%) correct. This “live and let live” smecks of American liberalism, which is very foreign to authentic Yiddishkeit.
“While we all know (hopefully) that driving on Shabbos is against the Torah and while we all also should call out anyone justifying such behavior….However, we really are in no position to judge or criticize anyone who does such things, just because you may have the benefit of a Yeshiva education.”
Huh?
Which is it? Should we “call them out” or just leave them alone because “we are in no position to criticize”?
zalmy,
“If the posters on this board really think that this type of ka’naus is what HKBH wants from us (as opposed to the way of respectfulness and pleasentness – ‘darchei noam’ described by Tal), i don’t know what else to say, but klal yisroel is in big trouble. i would be curious as to what yeshiva these posters attended, and ask them what rosh yeshiva/godol would give his haskama to such an approach which seeks to villify and degrade all members of klal yisroel who are not exactly like me instead of treating them with simple kovod ha’briyos (let alone ahavas yisroel!!).”
That’s funny, I was just about to write the same thing about you.
So tempting to respond…but since I’m already having a bad day, I will avoid responding. I would rather answer when I am calm.
notpashut-
kindly explain what you mean. i try to do my best to address other posters here (and their opinions) with respect, even if i disagree with them.
zalmy,
notpashut (correctly) pointed out that you are an MO “kanoi” that vilifies and degrades Chareidim in subtle, yet obvious, terminology. By you declaring the Gedolim’s “kanois” is as such.
Doc, notpashut, and kitzur_dot_net:
Thank you for speaking the Emes!
Thank you Tal. I think you said very well what many of us have been thinking
chuck-
it’s funny you refer to me as a “MO “kanoi” who “vilifies and degrades Chareidim” – i probably went to the same “chareidi” (we never had that word back then) yeshivos many of the posters here probably went to. most people would classify my dress as “yeshivish” (for the sake of reference, not because it really matters), and i consider myself a part of the “chareidi” community.
the ideas i discuss come from a yeshivishe’ background (not MO), and CH”V i would never want to degrade our communities, rather to be upfront about what is REALLY going on. there are many of us who are a bit older who realize that many, many things about our communities have changed over the years – many for better, and, unfortunately, many for worse. YWN and the ‘coffee room’, to some degree, allow members of the “yeshiva world” (whatever that means) to discuss these issues.
one of the issues that may have gotten worse over the years might be the deterioration in middos among the yeshiva community, especially with regard to other yiddin. someone sincerely makes a request that we should discuss matters with respect to one another, and he is bombarded with attacks on his honesty, etc., and ‘svoros’ explaining to him why he is wrong. is a call to improve our ‘bein adam lechaveiro’ truly so offensive to you??
For those in the EST, group therapy is ending with maariv, so get it in soon 😉
“For those in the EST, group therapy is ending with maariv, so get it in soon”
im confusednotpashut, chuck: All zalmy said is that there are many different sheytos on many things, and zeh vizeh divrai elokim chaim. If you want to exept chumros for yourself, good for you, but shoving your chumros down someone else’s throat is a shaylah of bal tishaktzu. Blasting someone for encouraging us to show some respect for those that aren’t our exact copies, on a topic started with a plea to show respect to your fellow jew, is slightly disturbing.
That said, zalmy: I believe you may have crossed a line when you complained about “the deterioration in middos among the yeshiva community, especially with regard to other yiddin”. Saying something negative about a group of people is like saying lashon hara on each one individually.
Zalmy,
“I try to do my best to address other posters here (and their opinions) with respect, even if i disagree with them.”
From all the posters who have an anti chareidi agenda, your posts rank high up on the list of nastiness, viciousness & disrespect.
“I probably went to the same “chareidi” (we never had that word back then) yeshivos many of the posters here probably went to. most people would classify my dress as “yeshivish” (for the sake of reference, not because it really matters), and i consider myself a part of the “chareidi” community.”
Now it all makes sense.
to mw13-
to clarify, i include myself in the ‘yeshiva community’ i was describing (which seems to have lost its bearings over the years with regard to middos). as i explained above, i was ch”v not trying to “bash” some other group, but rather to discuss what i (and others) perceive to be a problem within our own communities (and by extension, within ourselves). i think that many of the topics in the ‘coffee room’ can be classified as discussions of problems within our communities, which is certainly important as long as we remain civil, respectful, and constructive.
Zalmy,
What is this new tone of respect & tolerance we are hearing from you?
Are you becomeing a Ba’al T’shuva?
We’d gladly listen to ALL your complaints if they were addressed to us like that.
Don’t have internet: EST = eastern standard time. I was being tongue in cheek. And truly, hope I didn’t offend anyone.
not pashut-
you insinuate that i have been disrespectful/intolerant in my previous posts. i do not recall any such instance, and if i have done so, i sincerely apologize to you and anyone else i may have offended.
as for being a ‘baal teshuva’, i’m happy to accept such a title, considering what chazal had to say about baalei teshuva.
the only point i was trying to make (echoing the original poster’s) is that we should be able to disagree with one anther’s opinions respectfully, and that someone who holds a different shitta than you is no less of a yid because of it.
if i have voiced concern in the past over various trends in our community, it is from the point of view of one member of a family pointing something out to another member because they are seriously concerned for their well being. we have a mitzva of ‘hocheiach tochiach’ when our words can have a positive effect. this is not a stira to ‘ahavas yisroel’. rather, if we truly care about one another we should want to help each other if we are able to have a positive effect. and this is best (and probably only) done with respect and derech eretz.
i know what est is—-i was just being confused-dont mind me
Zalmy,
WOW. It’s good I’m not a Tzaddik Gomur, otherwise I’d have to leave!
you guys really blasted zalmy. for a recently new member like myself,i have no idea what went on. maybe we should not point fingers at people but just say what we need to improve here.
WOW- WHAT AN OXYMORON OF A THREAD HERE. completely defeated the original purpose. how sad
Yeah, let’s fight about who’s the nicest guy on YW.
It boils down to one thing – just show a little derech eretz. When you disagree, don’t be disagreeable (this is not directed at anyone here).
ITS FINE BOOSHA MICHAPERES!!
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