August 6, 2010 5:00 am at 5:00 am #1189984
It isn’t only a pasuk in Tanach (Mishlei 13:24) that a parent and rebbi is required to hit his child when necessary, hitting is halacha l’maasa paskened in Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayim 551:18.
The Shulchan Oruch makes a special point to say not to hit children during “the three weeks” between the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha Bi’Av. This makes clear that parents and teachers are to hit during the rest of year. The hitting is to be for the purpose of education – not abuse or injury. The Shulchan Oruch says not to hit like an enemy nor to hit cruelly; the adult should hit the child with a small strap (Yorah Daya 245:10). Pischai Tshuva on this says that if the hit breaks a bone (in other words, does any harm considered to be damage in halacha), the perpetrator is obligated for all costs and punishments prescribed by halacha for damages done to any person. The hit must not be sadistic or damaging. There must be no more to the hit than its instructive point: e.g. don’t lie, don’t hit the other child, stop the chutzpa, don’t run into the street again. Rambam writes that one must PRETEND to be angry for one’s own family or in his community, when there will be instructive benefit in appearing angry, but NEVER TO HAVE ACTUAL ANGER. EVEN WHEN ANGRY, ONE MUST SPEAK WITH GENTLENESS, and never appear to be excited (Dayos 2:3). The Torah understands the balance between love and discipline in teaching children. Chazal say that if your child is not succeeding in his Torah studies, his rebbe must have withheld from him a pleasant face [Taanis 8a]. Teachers must also balance love and discipline.
Ashkenazim do permit hitting a child till the age of twenty two. However several complex issues enter the question after the child is bar/bas mitzva [Yora Daya 240:19-20, Rama, Pischay Tshuva and Birchay Yosef and Rambam Dayos]. Hitting a child over bar/bas mitzva would be a possible option only if it is for the pure sake of chinuch and if there is no other valid non-hitting option. The parent must make an objective evaluation of the child’s nature: will the child react adversely, can hitting be expected to be truly effective? The hitting is not allowed if the child is married, or if the child will react with a violation of halacha (e.g. hitting, cursing, opposition to the parent or if the child’s honoring of the parent would be jeopardized), if the parent is motivated by his own anger, if hitting is an excessive burdening of the child or if the child is excessively humiliated, anguished or frightened. No Jew, even a bais din, may hit another Jew without halachic justification. If the Torah is strict about not hitting someone considered evil in halacha, it is all the moreso strict about not hitting someone NOT considered evil in halacha. If one raises his hand against another in anger, even without hitting, or if he hits more than is justified by halacha for the sin, he is called evil [Choshen Mishpot 420:1]. Due to complex factors such as these, the custom in practice among some Ashkenazim is generally to try to not hit a child over bar/bas mitzva age, when avoidable.August 6, 2010 5:01 am at 5:01 am #1189985
Yehuda HaChassid, the great sage in the time of the Rishonim, was once working at his desk with some rare and irreplaceable manuscripts. His baby was lying in a diaper on the desk, resting. Since the baby was OK, he had become immersed in his scholarship, studying the manuscripts. At one point the baby started passing water which leaked through the diaper and reached the old manuscripts. The rabbi’s first reaction was to scream at the baby. He caught himself in the nick of time and gently moved the child to another surface and then tended to salvaging the rare manuscripts from damage the best he could. He said to himself that if he would have screamed, HE WOULD HAVE TRAINED THE CHILD TO BECOME FRIGHTENED OF A THING THAT IS NATURAL AND HE KNEW THAT THIS WOULD BE DESTRUCTIVE FOR THE REST OF THE CHILD’S LIFE AND HE COULDN’T DO THAT!
Every child must receive love at the foundation of his upbringing. The love is then structured by discipline and training. With this balance, the child will grow up to internalize and embody Torah, live as a responsible and emotionally healthy adult, give and receive love in a stable and durable marriage, appreciate and respect others, and function with mature and menchlach practical behavior for his entire lifetime.August 6, 2010 10:28 am at 10:28 am #1189986
im 18 i grew up being hit as a child by my grandfather who i lived with. at the time i didn’t understand it, and i was even a little angry at him, but now looking back i realize that he did it because he loved me and he wanted me to grow up on the proper derech. i now appreciate every single blow he landed on me, and i wouldn’t trade it for anything. he made me what i am today.
but you should know. for every single slap he gave me, he game be 1000 times as much in love, affection, and attention. he taught me almost everything i know. he molded me into what i am today, and even though i lost him in 6th grade, i will always remember him fondly and with great hakaras hatov for everything he did for me. including the times he hit me.
you strike me as the liberal modern progressive type…so ill try and put this in terms you can understand. hitting a child, and loving them with all of your heart and soul are NOT mutually exclusive. one is the product of the other. my grandfather hit me because he felt an intense love toward me. how could he not hit me? how could he not make sure i understood what was right and what was wrong?
i know what youre thinking…there are other ways of dictating right and wrong, but you should know, and be honest with yourself, does sweet talking always help? is it not seen as weakness at times by children? are there not times where a child will feel rebellious? can you really reason with a small child? of course not. you can explain to teh best of your ability, but unless a parent or parental figure is love respected and yes, to a degree feared, that child will not grow up the way they should.
it may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, it may not be this year, the next year, the next ten, or even twenty, but somewhere along the line you will come o realize that truth in my words. and you will understand that love and fear are not separate emotions. you will understand that hitting a child out of love is not the same as hitting out of hatred or a feeling for revenge. you will understand the difference between hitting out of genuine concern, and hitting because your ego is bruised. in short..you will understand that as much as you as a parent has an innate desire to coddle your child, and to make sure that he never experiences any hardship in his life, that your views are unrealistic.
you say that if your child cannot understand that crossing the street is dangerous you will keep him in the car, or on a harness. are you really doing what is best for the child? be honest with yourself…if you can rectify the problem with one concerned love filled hit, are you not damaging the child by withholding that from him? your child will never learn consequences of his actions, your child will never learn cause and effect if you keep sheltering him like you are. you may want to lock him away in a little bubble and never let him go for fear that he may not be able to handle the harsh outside world, but what happens when he is twenty? what happens when he of age to get married, and he has never experienced the real world, what then?
it is you, and people like you who are damaging their children permanently, not those that hit out of love. it is you who are stunting your children’s growth, not those that hit out of love. it is you who is preventing your child from getting the proper chinuch he should get, not those that are hitting out of love. pure love is a nice ideal, and its a nice idea to never discipline your child, but without the ultimate option of that discipline, how will he ever learn? what if you talk and talk, and talk, and your words are disregarded? what then? what about when he is 7 and you tell him not to rub his filthy hands on your freshly painted walls, and he goes ahead and does it anyway, what then? what if you tell him over and over again not to and he still disregards you what then? will you ask him nicely again, and let him do what is wrong? or will you hit him out of love so that he learns what is proper? or will you tear down the walls so he no longer has the opportunity to dirty them?!?
the key here is love. a parent that truly loves their child will be able to hit them and still love them, and the child will still love them back. if the reason of for the hit is pure, and out of love and concern it will come across to the child, and not cause animosity. the child will appreciate it every single time. i know i do.August 6, 2010 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1189987
Oomis, you may have chose that method, but it doesn’t NEED that method. There are plenty of other ways around that.
Maxwell, poskim also allow hitting your wife (or having Beis Din do it). Are you saying we should be doing that as well?August 6, 2010 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1189988squeakParticipant
You bet. Max doesn’t “shop” for kulos.August 6, 2010 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1189989ChayalaMember
There is a well known story: there was a small boy who refused to go off one of those rides(that you pay .25 for) everyone came to get him off but nothing worked-an old man passed by and asked what was going on, they told him and he said I will get him off,the mother said I dont want you to touch my kid-so he said I o.k im not going to.-the old man said somthing into the boys ear and the boy jumped off! when they asked the old man what he told the boy, he said I told him that if you dont get off ill give you a good potch:-)August 6, 2010 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1189990
right, that was the point of my post, and SJSinNYC you would do well not to disregard it. sometimes it is necessary, sometimes it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. never out of hate, only out of love, but very necessary, and in fact extremely beneficial if done properly.August 6, 2010 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1189991philosopherMember
Chayala, that’s a cute story.August 6, 2010 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1189992
Bomb, I just saw your post.
Of course I discipline my child. And I teach him right from wrong. I let him experiment with his boundaries in safe situations to see if he can handle it. Then we continue on to more complex situations and see if he listens. My son has no problem running into the street at 2.5. He also understands when we get to busy streets he has to hold my hand. And that crossing the street he must hold hands.
People equate not hitting your child with not disciplining your child which is patently false. I discipline, I just don’t hit.
You need to teach your children responsibility within their means. As a parent you need to help them grow. If they aren’t ready for certain tasks, why would you force them into those situations and then hit them for it?
If a child is misbehaving, its more important to look at WHY they are misbehaving and what triggered it. You can usually figure out a reason (tired/hungry/testing limits) and act accordingly.
Please give me an example of a time you need to hit where other methods of discipline wouldn’t work.August 6, 2010 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1189993
There is a well known story: there was a small boy who refused to go off one of those rides(that you pay .25 for) everyone came to get him off but nothing worked-an old man passed by and asked what was going on, they told him and he said I will get him off,the mother said I dont want you to touch my kid-so he said I o.k im not going to.-the old man said somthing into the boys ear and the boy laughed!
when they asked the old man what he told the boy, he said I told him that if you dont get off ill give you a good potch:-)
The boy then said you already told my mommy you won’t touch me, you are a liar. The old man then went on to hit the boy.
The police were then called for this old man punishing the child. He was subsequently arrested.
Not to say a Potch is not needed sometimes, but NEVER touch/threaten/hit someone else’s child without permission.August 6, 2010 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1189994
sure. lets take the example i game in my post. your 7 year old…(I KNOW.,..your kid is 2.5) OK…even 2.5. he has just been playing with an old newspaper, and his hands are FILTHY! so of course, being a happy 2.5 year old, he runs across the house, clapping his hands with glee laughing 😀 its wonderful to see 😀 then…you see it. 5 handprints on the wall. this is the 7th time your kid has done this…and all 6 times previously you have told him not to to no avail. what now…
let’s see. you can reason with the child…HAH! yeah right there IS NO REASONING with a 2.5 year old. or…you can hang plastic sheets on your wall…yeah right…im assuming you dont live in a meatpacking plant. you can ask nicely again…but teh past 6 times it just didnt work.
now let’s analyze exactly why YOU would never do what your kid just did. what would be the consequence…you would have to live with that ugly handprint on the wall. it would bother you each and every time you saw it. you would cringe as you see that black handprint just slapped there on your beautiful sea foam green walls. it would be a blight. it would ruin the entire paint job…just that handprint. THAT is the consequence of YOUR action.
now lets look at it from your kid’s standpoint. will he have teh same consequence? will he care that there is a black handprint on your beautiful sea foam green walls? of course not! not because teh child is destructive, not because the child likes messing up your walls, but because teh child has no concept of what is wrong with what he did. you can talk…and talk…and talk…the child WILL NOT understand. YOU don’t need to be hit, because you understand cause and effect, action and consequence. your child does not. therefore…there must be a consequence so the child learns teh concept, and so he learns not to put his hand n teh wall.
i can almost picture you sitting there yelling at your screen NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT!!! NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT!!! YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND!!! but it is in no way negative reinforcement because it is done out of love. you give your kid a smack on teh bottom or the hand, it doesn’t have to be particularly hard, but the message gets across. the disappointment comes across, the desire to teach right from wrong comes across. and then you hug your child. the love for your child comes across.
if you are able to reason to your kid and actually get the results you want…then you are an anomaly. but from your previous statement it seems you cannot. A HARNESS?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!? THAT IS BETTER FOR YOUR CHILD?!? treating a child like a dog is better? ridiculous. absolutely ridiculous. and keeping your kid in the car because you refuse to use hitting as a method of chinuch…really? REALLY?!? how will your child learn to cross a street. oh…eventually he will, but how far behind his peers?!? look at me…i am a kid. i am ADVOCATING hitting kids. not at my age obviously, but all the same. if done correctly it is one of the most effective methods of chinuch there is.
im going to stop beating on you for a second…and address something else. someone mentioned a black room where the lock their kid for 20 minutes instead of hitting them. i cried a little when i saw that. ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?!? DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW POTENTIALLY DAMAGING THAT COULD BE TO A CHILD?!? anyone who does that is crazy. you want to talk about child abuse? THAT is child abuse! giving your child a hit on the backside or teh hand is not child abuse if done out of love. it is very beneficial.
SJSinNYC. i know i will not change your mind about this issue, i doubt anyone will ever change any opinions just because some anonymous person on a forum somewhere tells them to. even if their arguments are compelling. but you should know, you are not helping your kid.
i’ll end with this. i will grant you that hitting is not to be the first second or even third option, but it must be there as a possibility. the child must know that there is always that possibility. i had this debate with someone on a different forum. your child may fear you because of that possibility, but if done right he will love you 100 times more than he fears you. the reason being because teh fear stems from love itself. if the hitting is out of love, then the fear is also out of love.August 6, 2010 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1189995
Discipline is about teaching your child how to behave properly. If my child makes a mess, they have to clean up (with my help, to the best of their ability at that age). That helps them learn that we keep things clean as best we can. And yes, I can reason with my 2.5 year old.
He also knows that if he wants certain priveleges (like swimming in the pool or watching Mickey Mouse) he needs to behave. And he does.
He was having some trouble with hitting the baby. We realized it happened when the baby was playing with a toy that he wanted. We taught him how to verbalize his feelings to us and how to distract the baby with another toy so that he can enjoy the toy he wants. We also taught him that the baby has the right to keep the toy if he chooses. Is my 2.5 year old perfect? No, but we reinforce this. AND IT WORKS.
As I’ve said, I’ve never used a harness. I would rather use a harness to help teach my son (especially if I lived in a place like Brooklyn where the streets are much busier and kidnapping is more likely). Its not that you are pulling your child around – you are helping them develop boudnaries. Its an extra safety precaution. I would much rather do that then hit my child. As for dogs – people don’t hit dogs either. It always causes the dog negative behavior, not positive.
And the black room sounds awful too. I don’t endorse that.
I was never spanked. I’ve spoken to plenty of my friends who were and most were traumatized in some way. Most, not all. Is that a risk I want to take? No, especially when there are so many other options.
No one has given me an example where hitting was the only option.
[For those who are interested, the most successful thing we’ve done with my son is modified time outs. We go to the corner with him and talk about what he did wrong, what he should do in the future etc. I make him verbalize what he did wrong to his ability, so at 20 months or so he could just say “hit” and at 30 months now he can say “I hit the baby” or whatever it is. We also teach him words like “upset” and “mad” and “frustrated” and “sad” so he can talk about his feelings. This has minimized outbursts.]August 6, 2010 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1189996
I would make my child clean the wall. I believe at 2.5, a child is able to wipe the wall with a shmatta (under supervision). He/she can clean up blocks, toys, etc. why not a wall?
Besides, is it not your fault that the newspaper is there to play with? You agree the child doesn’t know any better. Why do you think hitting will help it know better?
Once again, in cases of danger to the child, a preview of the hurt may be needed to avoid more hurt, but not because your wall looks dirty since someone forgot to put the newspaper, crayons, etc. away where they belong.August 7, 2010 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1189997emoticon613Member
i live with a family in e”y. the parents are very very thought out about chinuch – i mean if i told you some of what i’d notice you’d think they’re crazy or malachim, one or the other.
anyway, their youngest will be two next month. a few weeks ago, she was holding a small gamepiece that was small enough for her to swallow. so the mother said to her, ‘geb mir bitte.’ (please give it to me.) nothing. a couple more tries from the mother. nothing. father comes over. ‘esti, geb es tzu mamme yetzt!’ (give it to mommy now!) nothing. he took the thing out of her hand. then he took two of his finger and lightly tapped her cheek while saying ‘kibbud av va’em’ or derech eretz’ something like that i don’t remember. he let her cry for a minute and then took her onto his lap and gave her a ‘tzukerl’ a little candy.
i once saw him also potching hard his nine year old son. he let him cry for ten minutes (he’s older and more mature than the two year old; greater infraction, harsher consequence), and then was back to normal with him, loving as always.
i’ve been with this family for almost a year. those are the only two incidents that i saw.
their children are really special. i can tell you tens of stories that prove that their chinuch approach really works. but it’s not the potching that does it – it’s the extreme love that they show before and after the potching, that shows that they’re only doing for the child’s own good, but really, not just saying it like some parents.
you can only potch if done the right way. otherwise, it’s totally counterproductive – i come from a house like that and believe me, half of us kids were really adversely affected and are spiralling down pretty fast.
hatzlacha rabba!August 8, 2010 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1189998
SJS, this is one of those rare times when we somewhat disagree, but only somewhat. In most cases, I am not in favor of potching. Sometimes (and the situation itself determines the proper course of action) it becomes necessary to utilize the hand to rear method. There is a reason Hashem padded it so well. But it is to be used sparingly, when no other option serves.
BTW, my 2 year old granddaughter is one of those rare angels who CAN be told not to draw on the walls or furniture and she will listen. We show her what she MAY use, and tell her that paper is for coloring, but walls are for staying clean. She has never colored on the walls, and if she accidentally gets some marker on her little table, she asks me for a baby wipe to clean it up when she is finished coloring.August 8, 2010 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1189999sms007Member
I didn’t read through the whole thread, so forgive me if I am being repetitious, but a big rav, I forgot who (i’ll post it when I remember) said a child should get a potch if he either runs into the street, or plays with fire. The reason why years ago hitting was acceptable is because then they knew HOW to hit (no, not on the hand or the leg…. but rather out of anger or to sincerely teach a lesson- without any traces of anger).Nowadays, we don’t know how to hit the proper way , meaning not of anger, and so we are not able to hit our kids today unless the above circumstances apply.August 8, 2010 4:16 am at 4:16 am #1190000
What kind of midget is anyone here to argue with the Shulchan Aruch.August 8, 2010 5:07 am at 5:07 am #1190002
What kind of midget is anyone here to argue with the Shulchan Aruch.
I guess you’re right. Since I don’t hit my kids, I suppose that I am that sinning midget. I wasn’t aware that it was a sin to NOT hit your kids. Forgive me Lord, I’ll be sure to beat them daily from now on.*
* Yes, that last sentence was sarcasm… the rest was not.August 8, 2010 6:13 am at 6:13 am #1190003
The S”A says you should discipline your children with corporal punishment. Only during the 3 weeks you shouldn’t do so.
In fact the S”A tells parents and rebbeim what kind of strap to use on the children.August 8, 2010 6:20 am at 6:20 am #1190004
The S”A says you should discipline your children with corporal punishment. Only during the 3 weeks you shouldn’t do so.
In fact the S”A tells parents and rebbeim what kind of strap to use on the children.
So, Helpful, you beat your kids with a strap. I’ll be happy to be a heretical, low-life, worth-less-than-garbage sinner in this regard.
The WolfAugust 8, 2010 6:28 am at 6:28 am #1190005
Wolf, whist I wouldn’t consider you a heretic (at least not on this basis), I will say you are a bad father for not knowing the difference between a potch (or using the type of strap mentioned in S”A) and a “beating”. Just as the posek says.August 8, 2010 6:37 am at 6:37 am #1190006
you are a bad father
Very well, so this bad parent will amend:
So, Helpful, you discipline your kids with a strap. I’ll be happy to be a heretical, low-life, worth-less-than-garbage sinner in this regard.
The WolfAugust 8, 2010 6:46 am at 6:46 am #1190007
Sinning “in this regard”, is no less a sin than sinning “in regards” to kashrus or stealing.August 8, 2010 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1190008
Sinning “in this regard”, is no less a sin than sinning “in regards” to kashrus or stealing.
Very well, so I’m a sinner because I don’t potch my kids with a strap. If that’s the case, then I’m happy to be a low-life, worthless sinner in whatever regard.
Does that now make me a heretic, since I am now stating that I will NEVER observe this halacha?
The WolfAugust 8, 2010 7:01 am at 7:01 am #1190009popa_bar_abbaParticipant
This thread is frightening.
Before you destroy your children, you should seek some real guidance.August 8, 2010 8:12 am at 8:12 am #1190010fabieMember
Has anyone quoted Rav Volbe. He was against Corporal Punishment in our generation.August 8, 2010 11:24 am at 11:24 am #1190011
The Rambam allows beating your wife under certain conditions. Would you beat your wife?
Oomis, it has to happen sometimes LOL.August 8, 2010 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1190012
Sjs, why do you keep trotting out that untruth as your only retort? Rambam never allows beating a wife. He does say you can take her to BEIS DIN if she doesnt do her duties for him, and THEY can HIT her (not “beat” her) IF she remains stubborn and continues to refuse to listen to beis din.
Beis Din can also hit a man who refuses to listen to it. (Not even for a maalkus punishment.)August 8, 2010 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1190014popa_bar_abbaParticipant
My post was clearly not advocating spousal abuse. There was nothing wrong with it. It was in much better taste than most of the posters on this thread. Read it again.August 8, 2010 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1190015
there seems to be 2 very different ideas of what is being discussed here.
beating: flying off the handle, and hitting your kid out of anger. feeling personally offended by the actions of your child and therefore you hit him. feeling like your ego is bruised because you can’t get a little kid to listen to you.
chinuch: giving a light, or not so light, but not especially hard hit on the backside or hand or even lightly on the face (note…lightly) for the SOLE PURPOSE OF CHINUCH! there is no anger whatsoever at all involved. it is done with full concern for the child, and out of love, and a will to make sure the child knows right from wrong.
for those of you who have bad experiences from your childhood, and are emotionally and possibly physically scarred from it, you were subjected to method #1. i am deeply sorry for you. your parents were indeed wrong, and i understand why that would affect your judgment. however your arguments based on that are irrelevant seeing as THAT IS NOT THE SUBJECT OF DEBATE HERE!!!
for those of you who are smiling fondly at your childhoods, and those of you who know that your parents hit you for your own good, you know what i’m talking about. you can attest to the fact that there is nothing wrong with method #2. i was brought up with method #2 and i’m fine and feel no resentment toward my grandfather who hit me. LET’S BE CLEAR HERE. THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION IS NOT METHOD #1!!! THAT IS CLEARLY ABUSE!!! WE ARE DISCUSSING METHOD #2!!!
now…let’s move on…leave the sob stories from your youth about parents who abused you out of this…we are not discussing reshaim here. we are not discussing abusive menuvalim. so please…stop using them as examples for those who arent.August 8, 2010 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1190016
My mom (not often is at all my dad) would give me a potch when I deserved it, then when I started to cry, she would hold me lovingly in her arms and tell me she loved me and wanted me to be a “tayereh maideleh.” I didn’t know what that meant, but I knew it was something good, if she was hugging me when she said it. I did not get potched much in my childhood, but when I did, there was always a good reason, and I never felt unloved or traumatized.August 8, 2010 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1190017
thank you oomisAugust 9, 2010 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1190018
Helpful, would you ask Beis Din to beat your wife if she refused to wash your feet? I know there was one posek who said you were allowed to actually strike your wife yourself…I guess I’m confusing the Rambam with him.
What I don’t understand is why anyone would spank their kids if its not necessary. And no one has given me a case where it IS necessary. There are many effective methods that work. Why risk your child resenting you for spanking them?August 9, 2010 2:57 am at 2:57 am #1190019
SJS, I think in general that too many parents today are worried about their kids resenting them. We are NOT our kids’ friends, we are their parents. You are of my children’s generation, not mine, so maybe that is why you feel so strongly. It seems to be a universal thing that I have observed that none of my children or their friends believe in potching. I do respect and understand your position, but I also believe that there are times (and you WILL know it when they arise) that a swift potch might be more effective in imparting a firm lesson, than a time out or other manner of discipline.August 9, 2010 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1190020
There you go again, sjs, with your vivid imagination of “beatings” whenever someone mentions the Tanach & Shulchan Aruch mandated and proven proper chinuch of corporal punishment when educationally necessary, as deemed by thousands of years of foresight and proven success.
How many more people do you need to point all this out to you? You would do well to reread bombmaniacs above posting.August 9, 2010 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1190021
thank you helpful. SJSinNYC i am not married so perhaps i completely missed the boat on this one…but here’s how i understood the whole “wash his feet” thing. (yes..i may have missed the boat, if so correct me).
i had an argument once with a few goyim. they said that the fact that hassidic women are told by their husbands to not get full time jobs, but to stay home taking care of the kids and the house is subjugation and prejudice. i replied that it is NOT subjugation, or prejudice, rather it is the nature of marriage. marriage being a partnership would…by it’s nature…have 2 facets or responsibilities. 1) someone has to provide the family. 2) someone has to take care of the kids for most of the day, being mechanech them in the derech hatorah, and take care of the house. the former being the man’s job, teh latter being the woman’s job. each “partner” has separate functions but the same responsibility to the marriage.
an example. 2 guys own a brand new skyscraper. one is charged with staying within the structure handling the “books” and taking care of teh actual maintenance of the building. the other is charged with going out every day, and finding people to rent all the suites and floors to. the first one is there all day and maybe leaves for 1 hour during working hours. the second one is out all day and maybe returns one hour during working hours. is teh second one being subjugated or experiencing prejudice? of course not. similarly by marriage each spouse has their responsibility.
how does this long winded explanation have anything to do with washing feet? well, as i understand it when the posek who said that a wife must wash his husbands feet said that (it may have been the rambam but I’m just saying that because i remember reading the “feminism” thread) because at the time it may have been an agricultural society and as such the husband would come home each day with rocks in his feet, and worn feet that would need to be washed and possibly rubbed in order to allow him to work the next day. that would indeed fall under the wife’s obligations seeing as her staying home is what indeed allows him to work, she is what facilitates his work, and as such may indeed have been responsible to wash his feet in order to insure that he CAN work the next day and fulfill his part of the partnership. i would say that a wife being responsible for the household’s laundry would be the same these days.
GETTING BACK ON TOPIC.
SJSinNYC whether or not i am right in what i said above in this post, your arguments are terribly invalid, misinformed, and frankly childish. it reminds me of times when i have debated and when my opponent has clearly lost they would resort to tactics much like yours. they are ridiculous.
you want a specific case where it is necessary, but that is impossible. there is no formula. i am not a parent so i clearly cannot give you a clear example. however i would wager that if oomis gave you an example you would tell her she was wrong and proceed to suggest another method that may or may not have worked.
each case is different. i would assume that a parent makes the judgment by case where he/she knows that the only way to get the point across is by hitting the child. i would assume, oomis back me up here, that THEY DON’T LOOK IT UP IN HITTING KIDS FOR DUMMIES!!! it is an instinctive method. as for your kids resenting you…look at me. i don’t resent my grandfather who hit me. oomis never felt traumatized. I’m sure there are more examples posted here, I’m just too lazy to find them. the point is, you see that it does not traumatize you, and there is no resentment toward the parent IF DONE RIGHT!
to be honest if you are scared to hit your kid because he may resent you, whether or not you actually hit him, you need to work on yourself.August 9, 2010 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1190022
OK Lets discuss a long term study done on children who were spanked. Here are some quotes from an article written on it (I would post a link but YWN generally doesn’t allow it):
“But in a new study published in Pediatrics, researchers at Tulane University provide the strongest evidence yet that children’s short-term response to spanking may make them act out more in the long run. Of the nearly 2,500 youngsters in the study, those who were spanked more frequently at age 3 were much more likely to be aggressive by age 5.”
“The association remained even after her team accounted for varying levels of natural aggression in children, suggesting, she says, that “it’s not just that children who are more aggressive are more likely to be spanked.” “
“Corporal punishment instills fear rather than understanding. Even if children stop tantrums when spanked, that doesn’t mean they get why they shouldn’t have been acting up in the first place. What’s more, spanking sets a bad example, teaching children that aggressive behavior is a solution to their parents’ problems. “
Bomb, I understand why the task was the wife’s task. But if the situation would occur, would you ask Beis Din to beat her? [and I am not sure why you wouldn’t call what Beis Din does a beating]
I want my children to learn to respect me out of love, not fear. I do not want them to resent me for hitting them. I can’t even wrap my head around the idea that a parent would hit their child out of “love.”
We are taught not to trust ourselves until we die. How do you know that at the moment you are spanking for the wrong reason? Sometimes, emotion clouds our judgements.
And you may not resent your grandfather. But I have a few friends that DO resent their parents and have very little to do with them. I want a relationship with my children as they grow up. I don’t understand why I would take that risk to possible alienate them, especially when studies show that spanking is not the ideal path. I am not trying to be thier friend, but I am trying to be a stellar role model on how they behave – and violence is something I want to teach them to abhor.
however i would wager that if oomis gave you an example you would tell her she was wrong and proceed to suggest another method that may or may not have worked.
That’s true. There is always another method. That’s why I don’t understand why someone would choose it. I have a lot of respect for Oomis and I am sure she did a fantastic job raising her kids. I am NOT suprised that her kids won’t hit their own kids though.
Parenting is rarely about short term goals. The goal of parenting is to help them become independant, productive members of society within a halachic framework. We want them to UNDERSTAND why thier behavior is wrong and stop themselves. Otherwise, the minute we leave the room, our influence becomes ineffective.
I am not sure what specifically makes my arguments “childish.” Corporeal punishment is not ideal in any way shape or form and should not be used if other methods will. And there are always other methods.August 9, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1190023
Corporal discipline has worked for Klal Yisroel for thousands of years (for parents AND rebbeim) and is codified into halacha from Shulchan Aruch through the meforshim. We can’t change S”A nor should we want to change what works — and work it does. There is NO alternative (in all cases.)August 9, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1190024
There is NO alternative (in all cases.)
Are you saying that there is NEVER an alternative to physical discipline? Or am I misunderstanding you?
The WolfAugust 9, 2010 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1190025
Max well, wearing sandals worked for thousands of years, but now there are plenty of women who wouldn’t dream of wearing less than 70 denier stockings.
Also, I wasn’t aware that it was a requirement to spank your kids. I thought it was allowed. There is a difference. If I am wrong, please point out where in the SA it says you must spank as opposed to using other acceptable forms of discipline that work. I would like to make sure I am following halacha.August 9, 2010 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1190026
your arguments are childish because you keep trotting out the “husbands beating wives” or “beis din hitting wives” argument which is patently ridiculous.
but while on the subject…you do realize that beis din hits people to force them to change? obviously when beis din beats you it is radically different from when a parent hits a child…but you do realize that that is why beis din hits right? because sometimes it is the only option. obviously beis din isnt hitting purely out of love…lol i am not advocating malkos for kids 😀
but a parent IS hitting purely out of love. if theyre doing it right.
“however i would wager that if oomis gave you an example you would tell her she was wrong and proceed to suggest another method that may or may not have worked.”
that MAY OR MAY NOT have worked. may…or…may…not. in other words in most cases i would wager 90% IF DONE CORRECTLY (note…IF DONE CORRECTLY) hitting WILL work. (note once again…IF DONE CORRECTLY). other methods…will probably not. i have seen parents try and convince their children not to do X only to have them do X many times over again. and again, i have seen parents who when their child did X hit them (once again…i will keep saying this…DONE CORRECTLY) and the child never did X again.
those studies you trotted out…i GUARANTEE you that if you asked the parents to be honest with you they will tell you that they did not feel love when they hit their kids. THEY! WERE! DOING! IT! WRONG! so please stop trotting out your ridiculous studies.
how do you know to trust yourself? you’re right. you don’t. however look at it this way. if you see yourself as a good person, then if you ever fly off the handle and hit your kid you will feel the same or more pain than the child does. THAT will be your punishment, and it would hopefully change you. again, like i said earlier even if you don’t end up ever hitting your kid, you should work on yourself if you’re scared of doing it.August 9, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1190027
Rav Baruch Ber was well known that when he had to yell at a talmid, he first went to his office, composed himself, put on a special “yelling hat”, and then first yelled at the talmid (if it was needed).
May I suggest a similar concept for physical discipline. If you feel it is needed, wait some time to “calm down”, put on a “special” piece of clothing (might I suggest an “A-shirt”), and then explain to the child why they are being punished.
After all that, if you still feel the child needs to be punished physically, then at least you know you are not doing so in anger.August 9, 2010 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1190029
Wolf, That is not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that there are circumstances where there is no alternative.
SJS, look at the first comment on this page (mine) regarding the S”A.August 9, 2010 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1190030
People keep quoting that the SA allows hitting your kids. Halacha allows Beis Din hitting your wife. Would you go to Beis Din to ask them to beat your wife for an infraction? If anyone answers yes, I can pretty much guarantee that your marriage would not withstand that.
Since people wouldn’t do that to their wives, why would they to their children?
As to those studies – I would say that most people DO love their kids. Even the misguided ones. And if they don’t – all it says to me is that its harder to hit with love than you think.
Sure, spanking is quicker. But all the studies I’ve read (and there are a TON out there, its not just one isolated study) say the same thing “Spanking doesn’t teach your children to understand and can cause agression.” So every spanking parent is doing it wrong? Then how can anyone trust themselves?
As to the may or may not have worked – I have yet to come across a situation or child that needed to be spanked. My friends who were spanked have told me stories of why they were spanked. Spankers have told me of times they do spank. None of them seem necessary. Before I had kids I didn’t see what the big deal with spanking was – and then I gave birth to my own. I look at my 2.5 year old and he is so sweet and innocent. Why would I want to teach him that its ok to solve your problems with your hands? That is effectively what you are teaching, whether or not you want to.
And LOL GAW for telling someone to wear a “wife beater” to spank their kids.August 9, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1190032bptParticipant
“for every single slap he gave me, he game be 1000 times as much in love, affection, and attention”
Well said, bomb.August 9, 2010 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1190033squeakParticipant
Haha, I missed that! One should only be allowed to….
Lounge in a lounge-chair
Smoke in a smoking jacket
EDITED in a windbreaker
Beat wives in a wife-beater
But kids? Nothing suitable that I can think of.August 9, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1190034
I can’t find the text online, but you quoted “the adult should hit the child with a small strap” – does anyone do this? That sounds really painful.August 9, 2010 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1190036
first off any study conducted on goyim i will disregard. they have no concept of right and wrong, and most of them hit for the wrong reasons. hitting is to teach your kid a lesson he will never forget, but not the way they understand it 😀
as for my wife, no. i would not advocate beis din beating her.
1) beis din does not do it out of love.
2) the marriage is over.
3) you can reason with your wife, with children you cannot.
you are NOT teaching him to solve problems with your hands you are teaching him not to do X. if the lesson he is getting is to hit when he doesn’t get his way, then once again…YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!.
and for your information i truly do understand the difference between the wrong way and the right way. i say my grandfather used to hit me and that i don’t resent him for it, in fact a applaud him for it. my mother lived there too and hit me. for the wrong reasons and in the wrong manner. i resent her greatly. so trust me when i say i know the difference.August 9, 2010 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1190037
But bomb, its halacha! Are you going against the Rambam? And, did your grandfather hit you with a switch? Or his hand? SA says a switch.
As I’ve said, young children CAN be reasoned with. If they can’t, then they don’t really understand what a spank means. They just associate X behavior with pain. At what age do you think kids can be reasoned with? My son was able to handle basic logic at 18 months. He lacked impulse control (and still does sometimes) but that’s a different ballgame.
And I will sidestep the idea that non-Jews don’t know how to love or discipline their children properly purely because they aren’t Jewish. That’s a ridiculous notion that we can debate another time.August 9, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1190038missmeMember
marriage is over if you need beis din to enforce one spouses obligations? most certainly not! otherwise you could just head straight to divorce, and as we see in halacha you go to beis din to resolve and enforce if necessary marital obligations.
aside from the fact that she isn’t entitled to a divorce because her husband asked beis din to enforce her obligations, and thus he wouldn’t have to give one to her.
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