PRENUPTUALS in FRUM circles??!

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  • #603667

    Soarin
    Member

    What do you think of a prenup in frum marriages? (I understand the reasons for it, but sometimes it is unfair and strips the other of certain rights)

    #879232

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What do you think of a prenup in frum marriages?

    Considering the fact that the Kesubah itself is a prenuptial agreement and, in previous times, it could be altered as either party saw fit with conditions (provided the minimum amount was provided for), I’d say there’s pretty solid grounds to say that they’re okay (provided, of course, they conform to Halacha in general).

    The Wolf

    #879233

    Chulent
    Member

    Rav Elyashev paskened that the RCA prenup can cause a future get to be a get meusa.

    #879234

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    My rebbeim told us not to use them. So we don’t. Otherwise, I dunno much about them.

    I do particularly enjoy the way MO rabbis get themselves all in a tizzy about it. I actually once saw an article by a rabbi who takes himself seriously, suggesting that people should refuse to attend a wedding where they aren’t using a prenup.

    Imagine that. For all he accuses us of imposing chumros on others, this guy wants to impose that nobody can go to a wedding where they don’t do it the way HE thinks it should be done. Nice.

    #879235

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The RCA has a pre-nup that they endorse. Many Rabbonim won’t be mesader kedushin unless there is one. I’ve heard that R’ Teitz from Elizabeth is extremely strict on this – he actually has them sign it at the wedding and announces it, as he wants to spread the word for everyone to do it.

    #879236

    147
    Participant

    Prenupts have no place in any circle.

    If you Mesader Kidushin insists on it, move onto another Mesader Kiddushin.

    #879237

    Soarin
    Member

    A friend of mine’s shidduch was called off (luckily before any official engagement!!) because of a RIDICULOUS prenup suggested by one side. Instead of working around trying to make the young couple happy, the side who demanded the prenup was upset at the other side who was insulted from the prenup! (And had the right to be insulted!) Now both individuals are miserable…Is this what Hashem wants from us?

    #879238

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why are “sides” calling off a shidduch, instead of the bride and groom?

    #879239

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If you Mesader Kidushin insists on it, move onto another Mesader Kiddushin.

    Mine insisted on one. It’s called a Kesubah.

    Yeah, I know… I’m a miserable filthy kofer so what does it matter what I do?

    The Wolf

    #879241

    Soarin
    Member

    This prenup actually WAIVERS her rights to the kesubah!!!! And there was basically no alimony in case of divorce (and no time frame either)…no sane person would sign such a document!

    The bride and groom didn’t want to call it off…but the side that demanded the prenup wasn’t going to get it the way they wanted it so they freaked out.

    What do you think of that?????

    #879242

    Nechomah
    Participant

    I think the “shidduch crisis” is caused by crazy parents like the ones you’re talking about Soarin.

    #879243

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Commenters are confusing a kesubah between chassan and kallah with a financial commitment by the kallah’s family. Bitter experience shows that before a girl goes on the market, her family should commit to a beis din, not to the other family, on what they owe. That way, shidduchim or (r”l) marriages won’t be broken up over support issues and the boy can give the kesubah the respect it deserves.

    #879244

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    The purpose of a kesubah was to discourage divorce. The purpose of these prenups is to make it easier.

    Most people can see and easily understand the difference. Those who don’t may be a shoteh, kofer does not really identify their issue.

    #879245

    Feif Un
    Participant

    147: Halachic pre-nups have been endorsed by R’ Ovadia Yosef, R’ Herschel Schachter, R’ Mordechai Willig, and others. Who are you to say such a thing about them?

    #879246

    2qwerty
    Participant

    I agree with wolf that kesubah is a prenup!

    #879247

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, we all know the facts: MO and some others have endorsed them strongly; yeshivish have told their talmidim to not use them. Let’s talk about more interesting things, like what they are intended to do.

    Has anyone read it? I skimmed theough a while ago. I’ll try and go over it again so this can be more fun.

    #879248

    Naysberg
    Member

    The reason that many poskim ruled against this type of prenup, is because the text of the prenup purports to compel the husband to give a Get in cases where he is not halachicly obligated to do so. And it enforces this with a daily monetary penalty, another halachic problem where he is being forced against his wishes to provide the Get.

    They therefore rule that a Get provided under those circumstances results in an invalid Get, and any remarriage by his wife is adultery and future children mamzeirim.

    #879249

    JaneDoe18
    Participant

    Unfortunately, not every man gives the Kesubah the respect it deserves.

    I’m not saying that it’s true in every case of divorce;

    but there are many Agunas whose husband won’t give them a divorce.

    From the RCA website, prenup.org:

    “In some cases, spouses have purposely withheld a Get even where their marriages have functionally ended. Some spouses have refused to participate in the Get process in order to extract concessions in divorce negotiations, in order to extort money, or simply out of spite.

    Traditionally, rabbinical courts (Batei Din) have been charged with the responsibility of overseeing the process of Jewish divorce, and ensuring that Get is not improperly withheld. However, in modern society, Batei Din frequently lack the authority to do so. The Prenup is a document entered into by a man and woman prior to their marriage. It provides that in the unfortunate event of divorce, the Beit Din will have the proper authority to ensure that the Get is not used as a bargaining chip.”

    #879250

    lawwolf
    Member

    My understanding of the pre-nup endorsed by REITS/YU is that it prevents or lessens the possibility of an Agunah situtation. It is not meant to diminish the rights of a woman as provided by a Kesubah. In light of the impotence of most, if not all, Battei Dinim in dealing with an Agunah situation, this appears to be a commendable solution.

    #879251

    Feif Un
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft: No, the purpose of the halachic pre-nup is to avoid agunah situations. Unfortunately, in many cases a get is withheld out of spite, to extort more money, or for use as a bargaining chip in child custody battles. The halachic pre-nup helps avoid such situations.

    #879252

    Soarin
    Member

    YU has halachic prenups endorsed by the rabbanim mentioned above. I actually reviewed them and think they SHOULD be endorsed. It saves BOTH sides from any horrible situation without making one party feel like trash. It is understandable why some would like to have a prenup signed before marriage, so that their assets are saved in case a situation arises. Yet it has to be done with consideration to the other party. Unfortunately, in my friend’s horrible situation, the prenup was completely unfair and disrespectful to her. Her family was insulted!

    At the end of the day, she is probably better off without them.

    And yes, “Nechomah” I also believe that much of the shidduch crisis may be attributed to crazy parents. Some parents are selfish and completely take over their child’s emotions and tell the child that their broken heart can be mended…. All because of MONEY, an unfair prenup and a unwillingness to work together!!

    #879253

    Soarin
    Member

    I just would like to point out that my friend’s prenup was NOT a halachic prenup.

    #879254

    147
    Participant

    I was married by a YU Rosh Yeshiva, i.e. a close colleague of both Rav Schachter & Rav Willg, an dhe never even brought up the topic of a prenutial, and there never was a prenuptial, so indeed there is no place for such tripe.

    #879255

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You might not agree with rav schecter, but he is still a Gadol and requires the kavod of a Gadol. Calling him a Kofer is a huge averah

    #879256

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zdad,

    Looking through the entire thread, the only person who mentioned anything about R H Shechter Shlita being a kofer was you. You were the only commenter to place both R Shechter and Kofer in one comment.

    (I realize that I just did, but it was to ask wher ZDAD got his silly idea from and to be Mocheh)

    Why would you do that.

    #879257

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Nish said

    The purpose of a kesubah was to discourage divorce. The purpose of these prenups is to make it easier.

    Most people can see and easily understand the difference. Those who don’t may be a shoteh, kofer does not really identify their issue

    I think Rav Shecter understands the differnce and is not a Shoteh or a Kofer and certainly understands the issue

    #879258

    147
    Participant

    I know Rav Hershel Schachter reasonably well, and I knew his esteemed late Father:- hoRav Melech Schachter ZTKLLH’H extremely well, and frequently consulted him on Sha’ailos, so I have the highest accolades & admiration for them, and as nishtdayngesheft correctly asserted, only you zahavasdad had the audacity to even mention such an awful appellation in conjunction with an absolute Godol baTorah.

    #879259

    Soarin – I knew a girl that broke off an engagement many years ago because she was being pressured to sign a prenup. This was not a halachic prenup, it was a financial one. The impression I had was that he (or his parents) were trying to ensure that she wasn’t a gold digger. She was in fact a very nice girl and not that type at all, she came from a very poor and disadvantaged single parent home and was scared to sign it. It was obvious that if things went wrong in the marriage he was not prepared to take care of her and they broke the engagement. It took her a few years to get married after that, but now she’s happily married to a very nice man and has a few children. I’m not sure what happened to him.

    #879260

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zdad,

    Your response is typical of your comments, illogical to the point that it proves exactly the opposite of what you were trying to say.

    #879261

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    In the secular society, a “prenup’ generally is a document to preserve one side’s finances in case of a divorce (to discourage people marrying for money and trying to “cash’ in in case of a divorce).

    As far as I know- the so-called “prenup’ that is being discussed here is a document that binds chosson and kallah to bring their differences in front of a bais din when the marriage has irrevocably broken down. It was introduced some years ago to prevent the case of agunos- when the husband is holding up the get -generally to extort money.

    It was drafted by many Poskim and ,at the outset, there was opposition by some Poskim as it may be a ‘get me-usah” (a get that the husbsnd was forced to give). However, after reviewing the document that was in question, most Poskim concluded that it is NOT a “get me-usah” and , as mentioned by many, is being used in a number of marriages.

    In view of the problem of agunot- a serious problem, by the way- one should not criticize Rabbonim that insist on having this document.

    #879262

    chaimss
    Participant

    Chulent (or anyone else) – Do you know where Rav Elyashiv said that, and if any other Poskim agree?

    #879263

    Soarin
    Member

    Don’t Worry Be Happy-

    I’m thrilled to hear of the happy ending for the woman after her unfortunate situation. I hear her hesitation in signing the document, (which by no means makes her a gold digger). I am completely disturbed by the boy. What does it mean that he wouldn’t be able to take care of her if things went wrong in the marriage?!? This is what I find completely disturbing in LEGAL prenups!!! The guy could toss out the girl leaving her with nothing?? There are so many intricate details that need to be mentioned in legal prenups in order to make it fair. For ex: The money from their marriage and onward: whose going to get it? Is it split between the two of them or he’s making her sign all her rights to that money too? How about a time limit?- After 15 years of marriage he’s not going to give her anything??!! Looks like he’s the gold digger here!!!! What about in a case where there is children?? There is so many details into making a legal prenup fair and just for both parties. Its these legal prenups that are an issue, if they are not written correctly (as was the issue in the unfortunate situation with my friend just recently). Why can’t these people who are paranoid about their money jut give a halachic prenup where in worst case situations, everything is left up to the Rabbanim in Beis Din to decide. It’s hard enough going into a marriage happily, when your signing documents and worrying about who pays what if you get divorced!!! If people are worried, just give the halachic prenup, don’t worry about divorce, and if a situation does come up it is left in the hands of rabbinical authority to decide the outcome of both parties. These legal prenups may be unfair, and may cause unnecessary rift amongst people if it comes out unfair and insulting to the party receiving it. A time that should be a joyous occasion should not be marred by bitterness and dispute!!!

    #879264

    Naysberg
    Member

    I don’t understand. Both legal and halachic prenups are redundant. Halachas address all these issues. If a wife had money prior to marriage, she takes it with her if there is chas v’shalom a divorce. Any money earned during marriage (by either parties) belongs to the husband. And as far as a divorce coerced from penalties accrued due to a halachic prenup, it results in a get meusa in any event, thus rendering it void.

    #879265

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    naysberg: You ignore the elephant in the room: the refusal of husbands to give their wives a get and trying to extort money from the girl’s family. This has become a major problem (probably always has been). the present prenups are primarily made for this purpose. It has also been conclusively accepted that it is NOT a “get me-useh’. By the way, there are other instances in halacha where the husband is forced to give a get and we say : “at shejomar rotzeh ani”.

    #879266

    Naysberg
    Member

    rob, the gedolei poskim in Eretz Yisroel (incl. R. Elyashev) paskened the rca halachic prenup and other such prenups can cause a get meusa, and if relied upon can result in mamzeirim of her future children.

    #879267

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Any money earned during marriage (by either parties) belongs to the husband.

    Unless, of course, she decides that she wants to keep her money and pay for her own support. In a situation where the wife works and the husband does not, it makes financial sense for her to do exactly that.

    The Wolf

    #879268

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Naysberg: And Gedolim in the US (such as R’ Schachter) paskened that such a get is fine, and encourage use of the halachic prenup.

    #879269

    Naysberg
    Member

    Wolf: She can’t decide that when they are getting divorced. She would have had to state that when they were first married.

    Feif: Very well. So if someone wants to get remarried and have kids with some poskim holding its fine while other poskim holding the kids will be mamzeirim, there is no law stopping her. But she and her kids will bear the consequences. Many people won’t marry someone considered a mamzer by great poskim, even if some others disagree.

    #879270

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    She can’t decide that when they are getting divorced. She would have had to state that when they were first married.

    Actually, she can decide that at any point in her marriage. However, it does not work retroactively, so deciding on it at the divorce is pointless.

    The Wolf

    #879271

    oomis
    Participant

    I ahve heqard of beating a recalcitrant husband until he says he wants to give the divorce. When I questioned the validity of such an obvious “forcing” of the issue, I was told, they are not beating him to force him to give a GET; they are beating the rishus of the yetzer hara out of him.

    #879272

    147
    Participant

    It is Ossur miDeOrraisso to beat or attack anyone; Furthermore, if they get told that the man is awaiting visitation which has been denied, they will back away from any beating.

    #879273

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Oomis they are talking about a Prenup that is signed in Modern Orthodox circles before the Chuppah that promises that you wont keep the woman an Agunah.

    In Charedi circles as there are no Agunahs they dont feel its appropriate and do not allow it

    #879274

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Naysberg: Did you ever hear of the organization Bonei Olam? Do you have any idea how many children are born through fertility treatments every year?

    Did you know that the Satmar Rav held IVF was 100% assur, and that children that result from it might be mamzeirim?

    #879275

    Sam2
    Participant

    147: That’s just not true. Beis Din has complete permission to beat people in necessary circumstances.

    #879276

    ohr chodesh
    Member

    When beating a husband is permissible is a very delicate and subtle decision that only a well accepted beis din of big talmidei chachomim can pasken. Because sometimes halachicly a beis din is permitted to beat a recalcitant husband to force him to give a Get, and it is a valid Get. Other times it is impermissible for a beis din to beat a husband who refuses to give a Get, to force him to give one. And if they do beat him, or even apply lesser impermissible pressures, the resulting Get is invalid.

    #879277

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Did you know that the Satmar Rav held IVF was 100% assur, and that children that result from it might be mamzeirim?

    The Satmar Rebbe’s machlokes with R Moshe was regarding artificial insemination. IVF had never been done by that time. And they are somewhat different. In addition, The Satmar Rebbe never said the children would be a mamzer. Perhaps he said a safek or koruv, but it was never a definite.

    Thos who hold this a get meusah hold that she is an eishes ish and therefore it is not the same safek.

    #879278

    147
    Participant

    Sam2:- What happened to Dino d’Malchuso Dino?

    Any woman denying visitation to a father is in violation of Dino d’Malchuso Dino, as is anyone who physically hits or beats up anyone else.

    According to the saintly Rav Wolbe ZRKLLH’H it nowadays is even Ossur to hit a child for Chinuch, so Kal vChomer that it is Ossur to hit an adult over 22 [the oldest age a parent was allowed to hit a child in bygone era].

    #879279

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ohr Chodesh: Rav Schachter is perfectly reliable on when it’s okay to force someone to give a Get.

    #879280

    ohr chodesh
    Member

    If other Torah authorities disagree with Rabbi Schachter, they may consider the get invalid and future children to be illegitimate.

    #879281

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Hmmm. I was aware my rebbeim said to not use it, but I don’t recall that they were concerned it was get meusah. Does anyone have a source for that?

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