Prepare to Flee America!

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    to shkoyach…It is indeed R’Meir simcha in “Meshech Chochmo” Parshat bechukosai.By the way, this was absolutely ‘divrei nevius’ because R’Meir Simcha wrote this in the early twenties ( I think he was niftar in the late twenties),WAY before Hitler JM”S appeared on the scene. (And, also BTW, this is an answer to all those who claim that the rabbonim of that dor could not say anything about leaving Europe before the Holocaust becuase it was so cozy there).

    As far as Obama- I do suscribe to the deepest fears and join most of the “posters” on this. The more I think about him and his total unknown past, the more I am convinced he is a Manchurian candidate and is a plant from our enemies.

    And to Queen of persia, remember that the Meraglim brought catastrophe uopn Klal Yisroel because they were “motzi shem ra” on Eretz yisrel. You are in danger of following the meraglim with your evil statements (treifene medinah, better to bring up kids in the US..etc)


    People, People!!!!!!

    First of all, when you write comments which are a page long, they get mostly ignored as people dont have the patience to read through them. Second of all, I love how as jews we all feel the need to have such strong opinions on everything.

    On to my comment: To Queen of Persia,

    I will daven hard for your complete refuah Shelema. I asked my rebbi, a talmid of one of the great Roshei Yeshiva and a Gadol “Should I get Life Insruance?” (I had just gotten married and my wife and I were expecting our first child). His response was “Yes, no ask me a hard quesion.” He went on to explain that anyone not getting life isurance is irresponsible and in need of a stern talking to (yes Queen, I am talking to you). So there you go, read it and go talk to a Rav again.


    Corrolary to my earlier comments…R.Meir Simcha meDvisnk was niftar in 1926….His sefer “meshech chochmo’ was published well before that date….divrei nevius indeed….


    I’m not panicking… BUT my grandparents narrowly escaped the holocaust while their parents HY”D were sent to the camps because they didn’t have the paperwork to leave in time. Now everyone in my family gets passports as soon as they’re born, and keeps them current.

    Whether or not I’d leave the country is something to consult with Daas Torah. But passports are not a major life change or expense, so why ever not have one?


    When I was growing up in the 1960s, a common slogan among right wingers was, “America — Love it or Leave it!”

    I’m staying here until my wife and I can afford to make aliyah. Regardless of who wins on Tuesday. (I’m voting for Obama.)


    i just got my whole family passports and a brand new beautiful remington 870 pump action shotgun



    i thought about a shotgun

    decided it was much more than hishtadlus called for at this time, even before asking a shaila.

    i will ask a shaila though if i feel the time has come

    lammed hey

    Just make sure you have your Ducats (or Gold Marks) ready to bribe the border guards. Maple Leafs or Philharmonics will also work.

    Eric: If you are serious, you probably need an M60 or a Gatling. Shotguns don’t work against angry mobs screaming “Kill the Jew!”


    your right i just thought i should have something and its not that expensive $300. if anyone is interested even if your not sure your going to buy one you should apply now for the firearms id card cause it takes about 2 months to get approved just go to your local police station if your not a felon you wont be turned down


    eric, it depends on your locality. many readers of these forums live in nyc, where obtaining a firearms license is near impossible unless they are a celebrity.

    anon for this

    jent1150, in my analogy I was pointing out that the 9/11 attacks did not elicit a reaction similar to putting the Japanese in internment camps after the Pearl Harbor attacks. The 9/11 attacks were of course not from a specific country, but most of the attackers were Saudi nationals, and Osama bin Laden himself is from Saudi Arabia. Therefore, if the US gov’t would’ve reacted in a similar way to the 9/11 attacks, they would’ve rounded up Saudis in America. Which, as you know, they didn’t.


    “Angry mobs screaming “kill the Jews”????

    I plan to vote for McCain, but if Obama wins (which seems most likely) there is no reason to let your imagination run rampant.

    Life will go on as before except that your taxes will be raised. Even in regards to Israel, everyone thought Bush would be so wonderful. For the first 6 years he was, being that he had a hands off policy. For the past two years, however, he has been pressuring Israel to make dangerous concessions. McCain will be more of the same.

    Way more important for Israel is who their PM will be. Having a criminal who belongs in prison running the country and making deals with Palestinians on his own, is way more dangerous to the country than having a President Obama.


    To all of you who have been lambasting me for not being in favor of insurance… did you not read my original post that I DID consult a Rav? The example that I cited of A&B and C&D was an example given by Rav Y.Z. Bloch at a Melislas Yesharim shiur about 4 years ago. He was speaking about Shaar HaBitachon. I did NOT make it up. Does he hold that the average person SHOULD have insurance? I’m pretty sure he does. But that doesn’t make it right for everybody.

    And to RabbiofBerlin: Chas V’Shalom to even think that I would say anything negative against ERETZ Yisroel. It was only against MEDINAT Yisroel that I spoke. According to Rav Bulman Ztz”l, anything built on such a shaky foundation is bound to fall.

    mdlevine: look in sefer Yeshaiah…. (I’ll try to look up the exact source later), regarding an earthquake in E”Y at the time of Moshiach…. the likes of which none of us have ever seen.

    Bottom line: do teshuva.


    Even so, calling it a “treife medina” is quite harsh. Shouldn’t we be grateful that for only the third time in Jewish history, we actually HAVE a medina? Shouldn’t we look at the fact that Eretz Yisrael is actually run by Jews as a sign that we are coming closer to the Geulah?


    “Shouldn’t we be grateful that for only the third time in Jewish history, we actually HAVE a medina?”

    we should be grateful, most certainly, to HaKodeshBarchu.

    “Shouldn’t we look at the fact that Eretz Yisrael is actually run by Jews as a sign that we are coming closer to the Geulah?”

    Im Yiretz Hashem, it should be so.

    “calling it a “treife medina” is quite harsh”

    not harsh enough

    im not sure how you define “medina”

    if you mean the government, then i would call it an anti-Torah, pig eating, atheistic, ungrateful to the Abishter, abomination.

    lammed hey


    Crown Heights.


    Queen of persia, this isn’t simply a halacha question. This is an approach to life, and one who asks such a shaila of a rav is, I assume, applying this in all areas of life. (As I said, Dor Yesharim is just one example, I’m sure there are many others.)

    So anyone who is now moved to ask a shaila, consult whoever your LOR is anyway.


    to feivel: Last time I looked ,the translation of “medinah” is country (look in the megilla) “am” means people.

    so, whatever differences you may have with the government of Israel, there is aboslutely no reason to extend this to the “medinah” where hundreds of thousands of frum yidden live.

    To queen of persia: i am not sure whom you refer to.if it is Rav Nachman Bulman, i don’t beleive your qute. I knew him well and he never, ever had bad words to say about the “medinah” yup, the “medinah”.

    As far as the content of such quote- you will have to wait a very long time for Israel to -chas vesholom- fall. It never will fall because it is teh “aschalte degeulah”


    Please let’s not panic. Even if Barack Obama is a Jew-hating, anti-American, Muslim, [which he isn’t,] there’s not much he can do to destroy our American freedom.

    lammed hey

    Give Me a Break

    That’s what they said about Dinkins. Imagine that on a national scale.

    Not saying it will happen, but that’s the Galus Jew in me.


    lammed hey:

    Imagine what? I don’t know of Dinkins – I’m from Miami.



    ***to feivel: Last time I looked ,the translation of “medinah” is country (look in the megilla) “am” means people.

    so, whatever differences you may have with the government of Israel, there is aboslutely no reason to extend this to the “medinah” where hundreds of thousands of frum yidden live.***

    i didnt, read my post please

    i said specifically, in order to prevent your exact misinterpretation: “IF you mean the government, then…”


    the meaning of medina is still unclear, as is the meaning of country. it has different meanings depending on the context, and even in context can imply a variety of different meanings. which is why i first characterized the meaning as specifically as i could (ie government) before stating my opinion.



    Dinkins decided to give the bnei chom rioting in Crown Heights “a few days to vent” before having the Police restore order.

    lammed hey

    You mean you have never heard of the Crown Heights riots in 1991?

    Dinkins was the mayor of NYC at the time.


    The Yated this week had an excellent article about leadership and Da’as Torah. (I think it was R’Ginsberg’s article) Many of us would love to have someone to consult with on any matter, but apparently the accessiblity to these Rabbonim is not easy. So, before we call those that always do seem to have time for the Klal, we probably should think first if it is a very important matter. Filing for passports I do not think falls in that category.


    lammed hey:

    1991? I wasn’t old enough to get the news.


    “Americans Rate As the Stupidest People

    BRITAIN, Nov. 5 2008 – After Barack Obama’s victory in the US Presidential Election, leading scientists have determined that Americans are an unfortunate fluke of evolution, where their intellect has been lowered.”

    Yeah, right.


    by the way..where to?


    Where’s everybody emigrating to? What makes you think life will be better there?


    To RabbiofBerlin:

    Rabbi Nachman Bulman ztz”l often spoke very strongly against the corrupt medina. Having lived in Migdal HaEmek and being part of his community for several years I had the opportunity to hear his drashos each and every Shabbos. “A medina built on such a shaky foundation cannot possibly have a kiyum” were his words. And boy, did the rafters shake when he got excited. His keen perception was awesome.


    queen of persia….sorry, not enough….You have to bring me WRITTEN proof of these words…I also knew R’Nachman Bulman and he never sadi anything like you intimate…PLUS- you say a phrase without giving the context….”shaky foundation” meaning what? bad government? wish to give back land? what does it mean exactly?

    gut shabbos

    lammed hey


    “We learn from history that we learn nothing from history.”

    George Bernard Shaw

    Perhaps you should be worried:

    “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

    George Santayana

    (Guess guys names George quote well 😉


    Eric-55– I agree with you 100%!!!!!!!!! Every Jew a 22 (or better). A Rav once said that every Jew should have two guns. One that you turn in to the government when they collect them (which is against the constitution) and one that you do not.

    “For the first time in history a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer…” Guess who said that genius quote? Hitler (YM”S). How did 5,000 SS troops control the entire France? France had lists of everyone who owned a gun and the SS troops got the list and confiscated each one.

    Give me a break- BHO CAN CHANGE THE CONSTITUION IF THE DEMS CONTROL CONGRESS. Furthermore, he wants to destroy our economy by making it socialist. No one in their right mind will start a new buisiness or invest in one if they know that a majority of their profits will go to someone else! That is why communism has failed everywhere. You like this idea of income redistribution- go to cuba or china. Russia collapsed partly from this disincentive to work hard. Why should I be a rocket scientist when I can make the same amount for washing windows?

    BHO has close ties with terrorists- what about Ayers who said AFTER 9/11 (so dont say BHO was 6 years old…) “I wish I had done more”… refering to his terrorism. What does Obama have to do with Osama? They both have friends who bombed Washington. Ayers is an admitted, unrepentant terrorist! And Obama announced his campaign for Senate from his house (Post 9/11).What about his praising the former PLO spokesman?


    lammed hey

    To answer the question of where..

    How about:



    Columbia (family of mine ran there for WWII)


    Eretz Yisroel

    Far Away


    The Himalayas

    Israel (yes, deserves double mention)


    Kathamandu, Nepal

    Lisbon, Spain

    A Midbar (like the Rambam)

    New Zealand



    Queensland, Australia


    South Africa





    Xiamen, China

    Yakutsk (as in the Risk place, in Siberia, Russia)

    Zurich, Switzerland

    All easier to access with a passport.

    Still part of the Galus Jew. 😉


    RabbiofBerlin: He was speaking about the government. Not the land. Sorry, but I didn’t exactly write down, nor was it recorded (pele pleloim!), what he said on Shabbos.


    rabbiofberlin to feivel: “oh, i see i misread your post, sorry”

    feivel to rabbiofberlin: “hey, no problem, easy to make a mistake like that.”

    rabbiofberlin to feivel: “gut Shabbos”

    feivel to rabbiofberlin: “gut Shabbos”


    Havesomeseichel’s comment that a Rav once said every Jew should have two guns, is a perfect example of a Rav making a stupid suggestion, and shows that when people quote a Rav it doesn’t necessarily mean anything. I wonder if Queen of Persia would run out and buy a gun because a Rav said so….Da’as Torah!

    The fact is that when people have guns in their houses, more innocent people are shot by accident than are burglars or other criminals.


    Yanky55, now take that and quantify it — show us the stats, then compare it to the number of crimes prevented OR compare relative crime rates of districts that have strict gun control vs. areas where gun restrictions are not so heavy.

    eli lev

    rabbi nachman bulman spoke much against the terrible anti torah idealogies etc. of politicians, ministers & govt in israel. at the same time he spoke with pity for them & all uneducated jews as they are our dear brothers.

    He was a Great oheiv yisrael & oheiv eretz yisrael but never did that fall in contradiction of his true kanoyis.


    Mayan- Okay, you want a number? The American Academy of Pediatrics did an exhaustive study on this issue. One of their findings was that for homwowners who own guns, it is 43 times more likely that a person known to that family will be shot by that gun than an intruder would be. For this reason I assure you that your pediatrition will tell you in no uncertain terms NOT to keep a gun in the house.

    Any Rav who says otherwise is a dope.

    anon for this

    Yanky55, thanks for that post. For those who do own guns, it is of utmost importance that you keep your guns & ammunition locked up. It’s not enough to hide them; research has shown that children often know the hiding places even if their parents think they don’t.

    Question for those who own guns: are the parents of the children who visit your home aware that you own a gun?


    YANKY5- you are completly wrong about the facts! “The fact is that when people have guns in their houses, more innocent people are shot by accident than are burglars or other criminals. ” Is completly WRONG!!!

    When people own guns, the murder and crime rate goes down! Read “Guns, Crime and Freedom”, “More guns, less crime” and “The Bias Against Guns” and any other book by John Lott Jr. Its very mind-opening. I have to contest your facts, as it states clearly in the studies done in many states that when the state increased laws against guno ownership (restricting people from owning them) then crime went up. When the laws decreased and people were allowed more access to them, CRIME WENT DOWN!!! Since the bad guys will own them anyways, as why will one more crime stop them, why shouldnt we own them to protect ourselves? This data was replicated in many areas. It was the same population before and after the laws were made or retracted and in almost every area, the crime went down when more people owned guns!!!!

    The pediatricians may say that you should own them, but away from your children. Have a safe or keep the bullets away from the gun and then there wouldnt be as many deaths by guns.


    By the way- its the owner that is dangerous, not the gun. If someone would drop a loaded gun on the table on shabbos- would any frum jew touch it? So will anyone get hurt by it? I dont think so! Guns are only dangerous when held by dangerous people. If people did not have guns, then they will use kitchen knives, pocket knives ect. In England, when they increased the laws against guns, crime went up tremendously. Especially when they didnt allow the police to carry them. then the criminals went rampant. Check the data and the facts before making comments!


    uh hello yanky55 you have no clue. from all things that children are killed from in the home accidental death from a firearm is close to nothing. and when you look at the total number of deaths in the u.s accidental gun deaths are way down there less than %1 so stop spewing liberal nonsense read the book more guns less crime and then you’ll have a clue, if your open minded and interested


    Yanky55…. If my personal Rav told me to go out and buy a gun then yes, I certainly would do so. But ya know what? He didn’t say such a thing… and so I have no intention of doing so. Since when does a frum Jew not follow Daas Torah? Chas V’Chalilah!


    If you got an anger problem. DEFINITELY dont leave a gun in your posseeion.

    Anger causes ppl to do things they never could have imagined…. seen it quite a few times.

    Most male figures should NOT have a gun in possession…

    Davening is mor epowerful anyway… thats one tool we should all have attached to our belts at all times.


    Speaking about preparing to flee…. there is a very clear remez in sefer Yechezkel of both Obama & McKain, in the very pesukim that discuss the war of Gog & MaGog. In Perek Lamed Ches, pesukim Bais & Gimmel.

    Obama: Starting with the word “Nasi” in the middle of the pasuk, count every seven letters and you get Aleph, Vav, Bais, Aleph, Mem, Hey.

    And John (McKain): Same pasuk Bais, it’s written in Roshei Taivos. The words “Gog Eretz HaMagog Nasi”. The Gimmel in Gog has a dagesh so its really a “Jimmel” (according to Taimani pronunciation). So you’ve got Jimmel, Aleph, Hey, Nun. I heard that McKain is alluded to twice but I wasn’t told where. I think it’s in the same area.


    Queen one problem i have with this is if gog umagog is to happen now it wouldnt involve mcain and obama it would just be one of them so why would the possuk allude to both of them?


    Firstly, the Gedolim all agree that insurance is a MUST! Or else, one leaves his family (himself included), on the yoke of others. Do not be frum on your own, and then throw the yoke of supporting your family on others. They can tell you, have Bitachon, and Hashem will help. But, they will not marry off your children, or pay for major doctor bills. All Gedolim now agree that insurance is a must! If Bitachon means relying fully on Hashem and not doing any hishtadlus, why do Roshei Yeshiva go out collecting for the upkeep of their Yeshivos? They should just say Tehillim!

    Getting passports is also a MUST! The Gedolim at the time of WW2 said do not worry, for whatever reasons. We all know the what happened, and the tragic gezeiro that befell Yiden. Yes, we need Berachos and advice from the Gedolim, the only ones who can fathom what is happening currently in this world. But one must also use common sense. Getting a passport is not an act of defiance against any Halacha!

    I do not believe anyone asked a gadol, and he ruled – DO NOT MAKE A PASSPORT!

    So what is the problem?

    Yes, one must be ready to flee any country which is not Eretz Yisroel! We all know the tragedies which are constantly happening to us Jews, and which is GUARANTEED to happen again in the “free world”. We just do not know when.


    Eric- Do you have chidren? Ask your pediatrician what he thinks about the idea of keeping a gun at home.

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