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I for one was horrified how President Peres the president of Israel claiming to represent the Jewish people after receiving his badge of honor, gives a speech about civilization being involved with breeding cattle starting about 10,000 years ago. How dare this guy claiming to represent the Jews express such kfira? Anybody who listened to this speech thinks that Jews believe in kfira. Well look even their leaders believe in it.
I think on this matter the Neturai Karta have a slight point. We have to make it very clear to the wider world that these secular Amai Haratsim don’t represent us. And their ideology has nothing to do with Yidishkeit.
Good morning. The Israeli State has been built on kefira from Day 1.
Hmm. I just heard him in person speaking a month ago, and he spoke (among other things) about the huge value and impact of Torah for the Israeli and Jewish future. Maybe it has something to do with the audience. Maybe he is exactly what he claims to be, a secular Jew with a respect for tradition. I don’t understand the surprise or the disrespect.
Csar, Good afternoon. I guess Rav Kook was a kofer, then. I guess R’Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was one too. And many others, who recognized the role of the state in the context of the geulah, and talked or wrote about it publicly. I am sure your gadlus protects you from the consequences of maligning, by association, these gedolim.
Kefira? Which one of the Rambam’s yud gimel ikarim did Pres. Peres violate?
mussar zoger: the one about Torah Min Hashomayim. The same Torah that talks about a much younger world.
It’s not so clear that the world is 5772 years old. Or young.
Does nobody learn the RAMBAM. Rambam’s ikarim doesnt mention torah min hashamayim.
saying the universe is more than 5772 years old is not kefirah. certainly doesnt make the president an “absolute” kofer. maybe peres was rounding up to the next 5000.
Zalmon: Which is he, a Kofer or an Am Ha’aretz?
On the ball: There are many ways to say that believing in an old world isn’t K’fira. It’s certainly not a belief that most (or all) Frum Jews hold by, but there are sources to rely on to not be a Kofer if you believe in it.
Only those who believe that Torah bealpeh doesn’t apply to perek aleph of Beraishis.thinks the world is younger
Really? Did you miss number eight?
Zalmon: Just a question, but where does it say in the Torah that the world is only 5772 years old?
You can count the years in the Torah.
I agree with the point that the oilam is making but I have to be moiche about musser zoger’s comment that Torah min Hashamayim is not one of the Rambam’s ikkarim. Of course it is.
Goint through Chumash one clearly sees that the timeline provides for an age range qell below that which Peres said.
Furthermore the only subject of debate is before the creation of Man i.e the six days of Creation how long were they. To state that Man was involved in breeding cattle over 10,000 years ago is to state that man was created over 6,000 years ago which is Kefira as it requires denying “ois achas” one letter (in this case the entirety)of the Torah Shbikasav and this is according to virtually everyone.
Zalmon, secular Zionists do not claim a G-d given right to E. Yisrael. And that would not fly with most of the Goyim. They claim a historic right.
I second Yitay’s Mecho’oh. I have no idea how I missed that.
I believe the Chizkuni (I think) says that the whole first 11 Perakim of B’reishis are all Derech Mashal. Now, no one seems to hold like this Chizkuni but I wonder if relying on it makes on n Apikores?
The Rambam says the story of Creation is allegorical.
I checked the thirteen ‘ani maamin’s” and it is ambiguous whether the belief in “torah she baal peh misinai” is one of the thirteen “ani maamin”s. It speaks about “torah Ha’ metuzyoh bejodeninu” – without specifying whether it incldues torah she baal peh.Clearly, the dating of the world is from “seder shenos olam”-a midrashic text.
in any case, spekaing about “ten thousand years’ is not ‘a priori’ kefirah in anything.
May I also pointo ut that nost of the posters probably confuse the last two “ani maamin’s and merge them into one to the detriment of logical thought.
Rabbi(?!?) of Berlin, Tzedukim and Karaim do not believe in Torah she’ be’al pe mi’Sinai!! Not to believe in it is definitely kfira!
rabbiofberlin –
First of all, we’re talking about Torah Shebichsav. Second, you can’t go by what you read in the Ani Ma’amins (which were not written by the Rambam); you have to look at the source, which is the Rambam’s introduction to Perek Chelek, in which he elaborates on each one of his principles of faith.
mdd and yitai…- thanks for your comments.
As far as the Zedokkim and Karaites go- indeed, they did not believe in torah she baal peh while we certainly do- the question here is not the authority of torah she baal peh – this is self evident and I venture to say that every poster here believes in torah shebaal peh misinai- but is it “kefirah”? The word ‘kefirah’ has a narrow meaning and , usually, means to say that soemone does not believe in torah misinai. I daresay that president peres may be classified in this group but not because he spoke about “ten thousand years “.
As far as yitay-‘s comments- I will check the rambam in chelek -although you do know that the “pirush hamisnayos” was written in arabic, with many inconsistencies in its translations.
Rabbiofberlin: So check the Yad in Hilchos T’shuvah, where he says that denying the Torah Sheba’al Peh is Apikorsus (or K’firah or Minus, I never remember what is which).
sam2 (and mdd); Rambam, hilchos teshuvo ,perek 3, halocho 8, “shelosho hen hakofrim batorah”, look at the whole mishne and the kessef mishne, interpreting the gemoro in chelek. Indeed, according to to this mishne and the kessef mishne, to deny torah she baal peh will indeed be considered “kefirah”.
The question would be, are “divrei agggada” included in this? I would consider the dating of the calendar a matter of aggadah and, of course, this will revert to the old question, how much must we accept in aggadah, in contrast to halacha, where we are fully bound by precedents?
rabbiofberlin –
The Rambam says explicitly that one need not (or should not) accept all divrei aggada as historically accurate. We understand that the OP is not necessarily correct in implying that there is no basis for one to believe in an older universe. However, the Rambam also is explicit in many places that one who denies Torah she-Ba’al Peh is a full-fledged apikores/kofer. These are two very different points. The point most of the posters are coming at you with is your ambivalence toward the latter, not the former.
Yitai- as I wrote. I was discussiing the term “kofer’ which means, “deny-er”and the quesiton was, what does one deny? After Sam2 pointing to the Rambam, it is clear that the Rambam-at least- considers someone a “kofer’ if he denies the origin of torah shebaal peh-misinai. I also said that i am pretty sure president peres is a classical “kofer’ in any case, because idobut he even accepts torah sh bi ksav -misinai.
All that said, to say that the world is older than 5762 may not be kefirah at all- as there is dispute, even amongst rishonim- how to interpret maaseh bereishis.
As far as our count- it comes from seder olam- a midrashic text and if you look carefully, you will see that signs of civilization started- virtually everywhere- about six thousand years ago.
yitay, the rambam doesn’t just say that “one need not (or should not) accept all divrei aggada as historically accurate”. He actually goes into great length in describing the people that do as idiots.
He says there are 3 types of people:
1) those who take aggada literally – people who are so full of themselves that they think they understand the mashalim given by the rabbanim; that it is beyond possible for the rabbis to perhaps have had a deeper meaning.
2) those who won’t accept anything bc it seems impossible
3) and those who accept that aggadata was designed to have a deeper meaning and no one is expected to take it literally.
as rabbi yitzchak berkovitz of the jerusalem kollerl says, who cares if the story in the gemara is true or not- maybe they lied! The point isnt the truthfulness, it is the lesson to be learnt from it.
yitzyshalom
The Rambam that you are talking about is in “Shmoneh Prakim. And in actuality the third “Kat” (in English group) are those that realize that Chazal’s knowledge of science was far more then what was known to scientists in their days as is obvious from mush of the Talmud and as such they realize that if Chazal wrote something that from a scientific perspective is inaccurate then it must be they had a deeper intent.
The group of fools in the Rambam’s words are those who think Chazal only knew what was known in their days.
I know everyone loves claiming the Rambam held differently but what I just wrote is what the Rambam states quite clearly in Shemonah Prakim.
What you qouted from Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz is a tekoff of the Ramchal in Mamar Aggods where the Ramchal states that Chazal often employed the science of their day as “allegories” to write things they wanted to be written down so people who knew how to understand it would and would be able to learn it but those it was not meant for would have no idea what Chazal meant.
Whether or not believing in an ancient world is kefirah is not as clear cut as some might think. For example, the Rambam clearly says in the Moreh that had Aristotle made a convincing argument that the universe had always existed, he would have reinterpreted the torah to be in allignment with Aristotle. In a more clear cut, and modern, example, Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch states that were evolution to be proven, it would simply be more grounds for us to praise and honor HKB”H who is capable of bringing forth ordered life from a single nucleus, and would not disprove the Torah in any way shape or form. The rabbis who make up the RCA state that, if properly understood, evolutionary theory is not in any way contradictory with Judaism. Are they all kofrim ch”v? In fact, there is a mesorah which can be traced going back centuries which holds that the first two perakim of bereishit are meant to convey deep spiritual messages, and are not meant to be taken literally. It would seem very clear, and if these aren’t enough I can provide more mekorot, that those who wish to say that the world is more than 5772 years old have al mah lismoch.
Ben Levi: Does the Rambam not say that it’s Assur to use Chazal’s Refuos because they went by the medicine of their times and that those don’t apply anymore?
Zalmon: Of all the problems with the State in general and Peres in particular, why did you have to go and pick something that is barely an issue at all?
yitay: he does not say that explicitly in the yad.
yitzyshalom – I know the Rambam. I was trying to condense it (as it wasn’t my main point) and not be a troll (i.e. be tactful) at the same time. But kudos to you for elaborating. 🙂
ItcheSrulik – He does, in two places:
Teshuva 3:8
???? ?? ??????? ?????????… ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??, ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ???????
Mamrim 3:1
?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??, ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????????
I’ve blogged about this, if you want to utilize your googling powers.
ben levi: not really. He emphatically describes 3 types of people, 2 of them in a negative light. Namely, people who take things literally and those who won’t believe anything bc it makes no sense.
The only ‘positive’ character is one who understands that aggadata was written to teach lessons on various levels, sometimes hidden.
Concerning evolution that someone mentioned; it has been proven that animals change over time to better fit in with their surroundings.
It would be interesting to note that the Soforno writes in bereshis concerning the creation of adam that HaShem did not wave a wand and poof adam was there but He took a creature already created and made it be’tzelem Elokim.
Instead of denying any modern science, jews should be proud that our rishonim knew things only recently discovered by scientists.
another example would be the ramban describing the big bang hundreds of years before science did…
yitayningwut: I wasn’t arguing about that part, I learned Hamada and Shoftim too. I was talking about your statement that Rambam rules in the Yad that you do not have to believe divrei aggada. It’s in one of the letters, I think the Letter on Astrology. Sorry about the confusion.
yitzy: What you mentioned proves our Chachomim knew science better than the scientists.
yitzyshalom: Yes really, You can check it up in Shemonah Perakim its pretty clear (Sorry but I don’t have the patience to start qouting it here)
What’s all the excitement about?
Be thankful that Peres didn’t say it was millions of years ago, like the real kofrim claim, instead of “about 10,000 years ago”; maybe that’s what he learned in Yeshiva.
These apologetic interpretations stand in direct contradiction with the concept of Shabbos being on the literally seventh day?? ??? ???? ??? ?’ ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????.
Itche – Oh. I didn’t say he said it in the Yad.
Kozov: So it’s good to know that several Rishonim were apologists who obviously didn’t care about the Passuk that you clearly understand so much better than they did.
Kozov -“These apologetic interpretations stand in direct contradiction with the concept of Shabbos being on the literally seventh day?? ??? ???? ??? ?’ ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????.”
Wrong. I happen to take things literally, but that doesn’t mean those that say it’s refering to one of Hashem’s days (1,000 years) are wrong.
True, but for purposes of determining who is a kofer, min, apikores, or stam shoteh, if it isn’t in the Yad you should say where it is because context makes a difference.
[verses] [Oral Torah]
Rabbi Avi Shafran, who, in his position as the spokesperson of the Agudah, is the mouthpiece of the Moetzes.
I for one think the point was missed here. The point is that as Zalmon was saying, that this is a sad precedence here, a man claiming to represent The Jewish people, and well the world definitely mostly see Mr Peres as the representative of the Jewish people, and he’s preaching information which definitely is at least questionable! This man definitely isn’t the kind of man we would want representing us, and having the Arabs judge us by. Even the Prime Minister who’s not a religious Jew knows that when he is representing the State of Israel he has to keep his tone more inlined with Toras Moshe, but this man just couldn’t care less. And this is what the Neturai Karta is refering to when they say we don’t want the Goyim to think Jews have questionable opinions and borderline minis opinions. We don’t agree to most of the Neturai Karta platform, but on this they definitely have a slight point.
We don’t agree to most of the Neturai Karta platform, but on this they definitely have a slight point.
We don’t agree to most of Hamas’s platform, but on many things they definitely have a point. (I would bring in others, but Godwin). Tznius is much better in Gaza than in Israel.
The OP had a (false) point which he was trying to make. You disagree with the OP as well. Shalom al Yisroel.
to thinkingverydeeply: maybe you are right that we would all wish that someone else-not peres- would represent us in the world. so, how do we correct this? like the neturei karta- disassociating oneself from the medinah- and losing the battle and the war- or do we do like the agudah and the religious zionists who strive ,every day, to make the medinah better?I know where I stand.
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