December 9, 2017 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1422955Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
I think it’s purposely misleading to say you believe the “minhag” of MO can only go back as far as YU. I get what you’re saying, Joseph, but the point is obviously that people within the MO are keeping some form of minhagim (Ashkenaz or Sphard); they aren’t all keeping one homogeneous “minhag MO” like Chassidish groups do.
If the sole basis of your earlier posts was that it’s wrong to go against the Minhagim of your father, then an Ashkenaz would be better off keeping minhag Ashkenaz and nusach at an MO shul rather than dropping his father’s minhagim all together in favor of Minhag Belz or some such thing.
ZD, I think your summation is very accurate. I don’t see how they could ever get good hard numbers on the rates of MO’s freing out since many leave to become Chareidi or move to Israel.December 9, 2017 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1422965
There are a lot of American Chareidim living in Israel too, and I don’t think it is a smaller number/percentage than American MO living in Israel.December 10, 2017 9:47 am at 9:47 am #1423187HaLeiViParticipant
This project is a wonderful, and long overdue, idea. It would be even better if people of all communities are made aware of other communities at a young age.December 10, 2017 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1423295MammeleParticipant
NC: I don’t think they went to a shul and counted/asked how many people left. IIRC it was done via phone surveys by asking questions such as about attending services and doing certain things on Shabbos or not. But I could be wrong. If I have the time I’ll try to find the info.December 10, 2017 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1423296MammeleParticipant
So I guess this glitch is on other threads as well. Good luck!December 10, 2017 11:57 am at 11:57 am #1423318
HaLeiVi: What do you think would be the best way to educate children about other communities?December 10, 2017 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1423913LightbriteParticipant
Joseph: Pen pals!December 11, 2017 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1424061
In terms of educating kids about other communities.
Kids tend to think in absolute terms. Too many choices are not helpful- they need to have a strong identity and sense of belonging, pride in who they are, not confusion about different options.
Yet, that does not mean that they should not be aware that there are all types of Jews, with valid approaches to avodas Hashem, even if that approach is not one that is followed in their home/school. For starters, parents should not mock other types, put down other shitos. Also, it can be helpful to read books about other children from other backgrounds, living in different places, with different minhagim. I think it is healthy for a kid to grow up with the attitude, that this is the derech we have chosen to live by, this is the derech of our community, but other communities might have different derachim, and as long as we are all devoted to keeping Mitzvos and being ovdei Hashem, that is fine. Most kids will be happy to stay within their “box” , but for those kids who for some reason don’t fit the box, they will know that there are other legitimate boxes out there that may fit them better, and that their families will not think less of them if they choose a different box.December 12, 2017 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1426209kj chusidParticipant
The same way you would understand why chassidish mosdos will not teach about the reform, (or only in negative terms) the same way they won’t teach about modern orthodox. Also kids from chassidish groups can’t “pen-pal” bc most can’t write in EnglishDecember 12, 2017 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1426219
KJ: They can have Yiddish pen pals. Like between an American Chasidishe kid with a Yerushalmi Litvish kid.December 12, 2017 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1426273kj chusidParticipant
That’s not a bad idea considering both children have more or less the same hashkafic viewsDecember 13, 2017 7:52 am at 7:52 am #1426337
That’s the point – to find the things in common, to show that among frum Jews-for example, even those coming from a Litvish Israeli community and a Chasidish community in Kiryat Yoel-, we have more that is the same about us than what is different.
By the way, I don’t think it is a good idea for mosdos of any kind to teach hashkafos of other communities- chinuch is not a multiple choice assignment. But exposure, or acknowledgment of the existence of other Torah-valid hashkafos can be done in an informal manner, like through the stories they read, the pictures of kids in their textbooks, etc. Unless you feel “my way is the only way, everything else is the same as Reform and therefore should not be acknowledged at all”, then of course someone who cannot live that way would become not frum- afterall, that’s the message he got his entire life.December 18, 2017 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1429759Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
LU: “Ftresi is correct. The statement: “It helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei” does imply that it’s bad to be modox although not as bad as frei.”
Ubiquitin: no he isnt correct.
This was explained above.
“ITs saying that for a chassid to abandon his roots, being modox is not as bad as becoming frei.”
LU: No, it wasn’t explained above – it was misconstrued to mean something that it doesn’t mean. In english, the meaning of the statement, “It helps them become Modox, which is not as bad as Frei” means that it is bad to be Modern Orthodox, but it is not as bad as being Frei.
If someone wanted to say that becoming Modern Orthodox is not as bad as becoming Frei, the correct way to phrase that would be, “It helps them become Modox which is not as bad as their becoming Frei.”
And either way, nothing was said about Chassidim. You are adding things to his post that aren’t there.December 18, 2017 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1429771Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
WTP – beautiful posts, and beautifully phrased! Shkoyach!
I would like to add something that I think people should be careful about:
One has to think carefully about how to present things. There can be groups or individuals who call themselves “Orthodox” but have attitudes that are more problematic than Secular precisely because they consider themselves and their hashkafos to be Orthodox, and the parents may not want their children to consider those hashkafos to be legitimate.
It is unlikely that the children will become Reform in any case. What usually happens (from what I’ve seen in my work with kids-at-risk) is that they become less Frum or not-Frum but their hashkafos are still intact and they still view the Chareidi way as the right way, and their aspiration is to eventually go back to becoming Chareidi again, once they have worked out their psychological issues. And often, they do come back.
And even if they never end up going back to keeping everything, it is worse to be an apikorus than to not keep Mitzvos.
On the other hand, there may be hashkafos that they consider to be “less legitimate” than their own, but not completely illegitimate, and they should make sure that their kids realize that those hashkafos are not like Reform and not “off-the-map”.
I’m deliberately not getting into examples, and I’m not saying it’s always clear which hashkafos belong in which category. The point is that it’s not black-and-white (in either direction). The fact that a group calls itself Orthodox doesn’t necessarily mean that it is legitimate. And one has to think carefully about how to present these things to his children.
If it’s not clearly wrong, you shouldn’t teach your children that it’s clearly wrong, but if it’s not clearly right, you can’t teach them that it’s okay, even if it is called Orthodox.December 19, 2017 5:18 am at 5:18 am #1429864
Lu, thanks. I agree with your point as well- it’s what I meant to imply when I phrased it as “Torah valid Hashkafos” and “devoted to keeping Mitzvos and being ovdei Hashem.”December 19, 2017 8:51 am at 8:51 am #1429903ubiquitinParticipant
this is not a dissertation there is no ned to dissect phrases. context is key. Read it in context. This is a discussion about Project Makom. A group that helps chasidim who feel that their upbringing is too restrictive leave their group. That is what they do, and this is what is being discussed.
There is another group called Footsteps which has a somewhat similar goal but makes pushes them to abandon Yidishkeit in the process, “it makes them frei”.
Project MAkom, on the other hand “helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei.”
You say “means that it is bad to be Modern Orthodox, but it is not as bad as being Frei.” Yes as IVe said, Sadigurerebbe does maintain that for someone born chassdiish it “is bad to be Modern Orthodox, but it is not as bad as being Frei.” He is abandoning his roots this isnt a good thing.
“If someone wanted to say that becoming Modern Orthodox is not as bad as becoming Frei, the correct way to phrase that would be”
Nu nu so it was worded poorly, thats why Im glad to explain it to you. Is this really the first poorly worded post yovuve come across? This is one of your stranger assertions.
“And either way, nothing was said about Chassidim. ” Um wrong, that is whom Project makom deals with, and thus whom this entire thread (see the title) is discussing.
If you never heard of Project Makom, no problem. Just ask what it is , or dont comment at all . There is no law requiring you to argue with any post particularly if you dont know what is being discussed.
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