December 3, 2017 7:48 am at 7:48 am #1417055
Hey, do you know about Project Makom?
It helps individuals who are OTD-ish stay Torah-observant, and find a place where they feel comfortable in their Yiddishkeit.
… I just found out about it, and realized that maybe it’s a resource to recommend to anyone who comes here looking for help…
Thank you 🙂December 3, 2017 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1417510
It helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei.December 3, 2017 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1417513
DovidBTParticipantDecember 3, 2017 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1417529
SadiguraRebbe, I truly hope you’re joking. If you’re not joking, then I’d say its people with your attitude that is a big contributor to people going OTD in the first place. I know many ModOx people who attend minyan regularly, are koveah itim and live beautiful Torah lives. Please tell me you were joking.December 3, 2017 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1417539December 3, 2017 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1417560
Joseph, as IF we would ever think you would agree!
In any case, the issue here is not about if MO is good or not. Rather, if the very ones that are going OTD for whatever reason it is (pressure from the Orthodox community, its too much… etc.) should rather stay with the basics and even it is only basic emunah and deOraiso it sure is better than giving up everything.
I think it’s sounds like a very helpful thing.
I always used to say I don’t understand many of these Otd who come from hassidim and very ultra, when they claim the left because of the lack of openness, education, freedom etc. What is the need to throw everything away? I understand orthodoxy was too much for you to handle (for whatever sad reason he has) but you can still join communities that only require the basics.
But according to Joseph its either this or nothing!December 4, 2017 12:11 am at 12:11 am #1417564
Gaon, your comment doesn’t conflict with Sadigur’s comment. It’s complimentary to his comment; and I agree with both your comment (which augments his) and his.December 4, 2017 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1417641
“I always used to say I don’t understand many of these Otd who come from hassidim and very ultra, when they claim the left because of the lack of openness, education, freedom etc. What is the need to throw everything away”
You can now understand.read my comments in the original thread DovidBT linked to aboveDecember 4, 2017 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1417703
Maybe I read Sadigur’s post wrong but he seemed to be comparing MO to not religious at all. That smacks of sinas chinam. Maybe they don’t wear the yeshivish uniform but it doesn’t make them any less “frum” than the guy in the hat that’s wearing black and white.December 4, 2017 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1417737
Does Sinas chinam also apply to how you treat less Torah-observant Jews as well?December 4, 2017 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1417750
If the only difference were the mode of dress, you might be correct. But it isn’t.
Read the thread I linked to above.December 4, 2017 10:39 am at 10:39 am #1417768
A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
To all of you who’d rather see people become frei then be Modern Orthodox, there’s something very wrong with you. Many more MO people then you think are just as Shomer as you think you are. True, there are those who follow “open Orthodoxy”, but that is not where Project Makom is taking them. Instead, the Makom team (who are largely from the Hassidic world themselves) is showing them that they can surely be frum while without having to fit into a box that’s labeled this or that Hassidish. Absolutely, you reek of Sinas Chinam. Aren’t we supposed to love all Jews? Or are you following some other faith?December 4, 2017 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1417779
Did anyone say Modern Orthodox is as bad as being not frum?
I don’t see that…December 4, 2017 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1417784
If I’m wrong, I apologise but my read of SadiguraRebbe’s post was a comparison of MO to frei, AKA not frum. If he meant something else, he should please explain what he meant to say. Otherwise yes, his post seems to say MO is as bad as being not frum IMHO.December 4, 2017 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1417785
“To all of you who’d rather see people become frei then be Modern Orthodox”
No one here suggested anything like it — Not even Joseph!December 4, 2017 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1417786
A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Obviously, Mod, we’re interpreting some of the comments different (I’m including some of the previous CR threads that are linked to here). There is a very strong condemnation of MO around here. Doesn’t anyone realize how harmful it is to force everyone into this box or that? Someone could have become frum 30 years ago, yet in many communities they will forever have to wear a “BT” label on their forehead. That’s a big part of why I chose the moniker AWOB. Does anyone here realize that in addition to all the other pressures that life throws at us, adding these types of conformity requirements in and of itself drives many away. Which brings us back to the OP. If a Hassidish man or woman has suffered in their own community, shouldn’t they be welcome in another?December 4, 2017 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1417871
“Obviously, Mod, we’re interpreting some of the comments different”
you are likely misinterpreting .
If any comment in particular bothers you. Quote it and Im sure someone would be happy to explain
“but my read of SadiguraRebbe’s post was a comparison of MO to frei, AKA not frum”
You read wrong. In fact he says the exact opposite “… modox. which is not as bad as frei.”
” If a Hassidish man or woman has suffered in their own community, shouldn’t they be welcome in another?”
Of course they should! Though that isnt a criticism of anyone here. That is a critiscm of (some) modern orthodox communities among whom some ex- Chassisim sometimes feel like outsiders given they usually lack higehr education, they may speak English with a an accent, they oftne never grew up immersed in general pop culture so they oftne feel left out. Obviously this isnt solved by abandoning Yidishkeit comepltly but iit isnt like joining a modox community automatically allows them to be complelty ingrained. You my or may not be familiar with the term “tuna beigel” but I assure you it isnt a term goyim are familiar with
Though this is a more minor reason why Footsteps is more successful than Project Makom. The main reasons are outlined on the other threadDecember 4, 2017 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1417891
“ModOx which is not as bad as frei”.
That’s exactly the comparison I was referring to. This seems to be saying ModOx is bad, but not quite as bad as frei.
How about ModOx is orthodox, just like yeshivish, chasidish, YU, etc. Does each group have their differences? Sure. But saying one group is “not as bad” says that is actually bad, just not AS BAD as another group.
It just this type of attitude by yidden towards our fellow yidden which turns people away, and makes projects like Footsteps and Makom necessary.
Why can’t we all just accept our differences, acknowledge that were different but still shomer Torah uMitzvos, and we’re all on this together. Remember, Hitler ym”sh didn’t care if a Jew was frum or frei. Why should we? That’s not to say we shouldn’t encourage people to move up and take on more. We all need to do better and take on more, no matter how frum you think you already are. But stop looking down on other yidden that maybe aren’t at your holy madreiga yet. It won’t anything to hasten the ultimate geula.December 4, 2017 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1417911
ftresi: Nobody is questioning the fact that there are people who would be willing to be MO or not religious at all. The issue is, What is MO and is it the preferable mode of Judaism? The fact that it is, to some, the only version, or the maximum, that they are willing to accept does not address the issue at hand. If Modern Orthodoxy would be a Kiruv stage for people who aren’t yet ready for real Torah life, that would be fine. The problem is that they consider themselves not a b’dieved, but a l’chatchilah – a full fledged legitimate lifestyle. They often even make claims of being superior to Torah Judaism. That is the problem – compromises sometimes have to be made for individuals who are on their way up. But to take those compromises and make believe they are not compromises at all, thereby fooling people who WOULD be able to go higher that they need not, or worse, that they are already the highest, is a terrible crime. While it is true that on an individual, private, level, we are allowed to even proactively cause someone to sin if by doing so we will have prevented him form committing a greater sin, nevertheless, we may never, ever institutionalize those sins, making a b’dieved into a l’chatchilah, making the exception into the rule.December 4, 2017 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1417977
“his seems to be saying ModOx is bad, but not quite as bad as frei.”
I don’t think it was meant in that way.
Lets’ try to analyze it from a different perspective – if someone goes from Ultra O to MO, the very move is not meant in a way you described the MO above, they are not looking to elevate themselves in Yiddishkeit.
I agree, honest authentic Erlichkeit is up to each individual. We won’t be asked after 120 what group we belonged to. You will be judged by the truthfulness of your heart and actions.December 4, 2017 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1417892
Someone just alerted me that this conversation is taking place. This is Allison Josephs. To clarify – our goal at Project Makom is not to make ex-hasidim “Modern Orthodox.” There is a RANGE of communities in between ultra-chasidishe and modern Orthodox. The truth is that really what we are helping people do is go from *unhealthy* Judaism to a healthier one. For a bunch, they stay within the Charedi world. They are not interested in Modern Orthodoxy. We are presenting healthy, halachic drachim and rabbanim and friends and communities and letting people choose what feels right to them. I went to a seminary which presented us a range of drachim and encouraged us baalei teshuva to find the one that resonated with our neshama. We are operating with a similar model here. Not for people who are happy and doing well. We are catching people as they fall out or after they feel out.December 4, 2017 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1418000
Obviously, Mod, we’re interpreting some of the comments different (I’m including some of the previous CR threads that are linked to here). There is a very strong condemnation of MO around here.
That may very well be true. Feel free to take offense and disagree. I was merely pointing out that nobody said it was worse than being not frum.
I too am “ModOx”, although in my case, “Mod” is not necessarily short for “Modern”. 🙂December 4, 2017 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1418014
That would buy them maybe a generation or two before the kids are back to being frei, so yes, it’s better than being frei.December 4, 2017 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1418005
The Reason Footsteps might be more successful than Project Makom is because by the time someone is fed up with somthing in the charedi community that causes them to want to leave, they want totally out and not some less intense versionDecember 4, 2017 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1418140
I’d assume footsteps is “more successful” than Project Makom (who measures success in this area and how?) Is because it’s been around longer and simply has more press coverage…December 4, 2017 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1418145
“This seems to be saying ModOx is bad, but not quite as bad as frei.”
Nope. ITs saying that for a chassid to abandon his roots, being modox is not as bad as becoming frei.
If you are looking for someone to say it is GOOD when Chassidim abandon their roots and become modox. Yes then SG wouldnt agree. He is saying it is bad. but not as bad as frei.
“The Reason Footsteps might be more successful than Project Makom…”
Yep that is the main reason, as explained on the other threadDecember 4, 2017 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1418264
Footsteps is a boondoggle that has been a huge failure in its goals, in terms of the small numbers of people they’ve actually converted to freikeit/secularism from frumkeit/religion.December 4, 2017 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1418263
At the point where someone contemplates leaving you are exercising damage control and that is much harder to save anything
The reality is Chassidism is not for everyone, even if you were born into it.
It would be alot better if people were given better choices before the situation is almost hopeless before offering Project Makom because at that point, footsteps is offering a better solutionDecember 4, 2017 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1418503
The Chasidish and Yeshivish attrition rate is very small, compared to other Jewish groups. (I saw this in some study a few years back.)December 7, 2017 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1422525
Ftresi is correct. The statement: “It helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei” does imply that it’s bad to be modox although not as bad as frei.
However, it is important to remember that the term “modern orthodox” has many, many meanings, and therefore, it is not necessarily incorrect to refer to modox as “bad” depending on the meaning they are using which would depend on the context.
If modox refers to people who don’t dress Yeshivish, then it would not be appropriate to call it “bad”. But if it refers to people who keep some halachos but not all of them, then it makes sense to say that it is bad but not as bad as frei.
There are a lot of other “in-between” meanings which may fall into a grey category about which it is not clear if it is “bad” or not.
In this case, the meaning would depend on what the people who are helped by Project Makom become after they are helped by Project Makom (or what it is that Project Makom helps them to become).December 7, 2017 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1422539
ZD: “The reality is Chassidism is not for everyone, even if you were born into it. It would be alot better if people were given better choices before the situation is almost hopeless before offering Project Makom because at that point, footsteps is offering a better solution”
1. I don’t think we’re only talking about Chassidim. I think we’re talking about anyone Chareidi.
2. You’re right in theory, except for a few things:
a) The parents’ obligation is to try to bring up their kids the best way possible. And if they consider a certain derech to be emes AND most people who bring up their kids this way are successful, then their obligation is to first try to bring up their kids this way.
b) The vast majority of the time it does work. In the minority of cases in which it doesn’t work, there is usually something else going on here. The normal thing is for kids to want to be like their parents.December 7, 2017 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1422542
Mod 100 – lolDecember 7, 2017 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1422628
“Ftresi is correct. The statement: “It helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei” does imply that it’s bad to be modox although not as bad as frei.”
no he isnt correct.
This was explained above.
“ITs saying that for a chassid to abandon his roots, being modox is not as bad as becoming frei.”December 7, 2017 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #1422634
Does everyone really want to be like his or her parents, given the ideal growing-up circumstances?
I don’t know if it’s possible with the way generations change and so do environments, which isn’t necessarily a bad or good thing.December 7, 2017 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1422654
Everyone’s obligated to continue following the minhagim and mesorah from their father.December 8, 2017 9:44 am at 9:44 am #1422725
There is about a 5% attrition rate in the Charedi community and an unknown amount of “Tuna Beigels” or “I.L.O.”‘s people who look charedi but dont act like it this includes orthoprax , Agnostics and Athiests.
Everyone’s obligated to continue following the minhagim and mesorah from their father.
In todays society religion in “Optional” meaning other than hashem wrath there is no punishment for not keeping Mesorah or Halacha. Some communities will exile people but thats really all they can do, they cannot punish or fine people for not keeping Halacha or minhagimDecember 8, 2017 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1422749
ZDad: I think it’s more like 1 or 2 percent. And the Modern Orthodox attrition rate is a LOT higher.
Tuna bagels or whatever you call them, as bad an influence as they can sometimes be, have a major advantage that their kids will continue in Frum mosdos and hopefully remain Frum. And very often when these people themselves reach middle age or so, they turn back to practicing Yiddishkeit.
Whereas when someone literally leaves, it’s much harder to come back and they’ve most likely messed up their families.
While it’s not easy being a kid in the former family, and kids can definitely sniff the truth and smell hypocrisy, if they have a solid Torah education with the right hashkafah kids can decide they want to be frummer than the parent. If it’s both parents that disregard some of the Torah, of course the child will usually end up a lot “worse for the wear”.
The bottom line is usually how bad of “tuna bagel” one is, is it insidious in lack of belief, or more of “I can’t be bothered with all this minutiae” so I’ll cut some corners. And where one chooses to live and what kind of Yidden they surround themselves with greatly effects their chances of Teshuva, as well as their children’s success in Yiddishkeit.December 8, 2017 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1422785
About 1-2% of the population is of an “Alternative lifestyle” and many of the charedim who leave R’L fall under that category so the number is higher than that. 5% is probably a fair estimate
MASK meetings are R’L packed with people who do know what to do and many of those parents do not have a kid of an “alternative” lifestlyeDecember 8, 2017 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1422813
ZD: I agree that Chassidus is not for everyone. I hope you also realize that the MO is also not for everyone. For some, too much structure is bad, for others, too little is bad. I think what people are pointing out is that statistically, the lesser structure option (MO) is more likely to lead to freing out.
Obviously in practice it has to go person to person. If this were just a matter of “not deviating from your father’s derech,” then that would mean it’s also a bad thing for a MO person to become Chareidi, which I doubt those posters believe.December 8, 2017 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1422825
Where do all of these numbers come from?December 8, 2017 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1422826
Personally I think the reason more MO’s leave (As a percentage wise) is because the mo community is more accepting of people “less than MO” meaning you will get people who are more on the margins and a greater chance of leaving, Not everyone who belongs to a Young Israel is really orthodox. In the charedi world you are either all in or you are out. If the MO’s were more ironclad on who they let in like the charedim its likely the retention rate would be higherDecember 8, 2017 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1422828
The Pew report did research on jewish life in america and how many people “left”
Some of the research was clearly wrong like 1% of charedim (They called them Ultra-Orthodox) had christmas trees which i dont belive for a second, but Ive gotten to meet enough people to realize there is a fallout rate on all communities that is likely under-reportedDecember 8, 2017 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1422829
The Chareidi attrition rate is possibly under 1%. The high end of the estimate is just below 2%, but it is closer to the lower end of 1%. The so-called alternative lifestyle is a minute fraction of a percent -well below a quarter of a percent.
The MO attrition rate is about 25%, according to preeminent MO Rabbi Steven Pruzansky. Clearly far more people don’t fit into a MO lifestyle than a Chareidi one.December 8, 2017 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1422830
Modern Orthodoxy is, as its name states, modern. It doesn’t have a mesorah from before YU in America.December 8, 2017 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1422833
If you want my observation on the MO commumnity, It seems its going 4 ways. Zionism is a big part of MO and many of the younger people decide to stop being arm-chair zionists and become real zionists and move to Israel and become Dati-Leumi. Another percentage is becomong more Charedi a third is staying and the rest is leaving, I do not belive that 40% number as it doesnt seem to count those who became Charedi or move to israel (Although its possible the 40% lumps those who leave altogether and those who become charedi)December 8, 2017 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1422844
Personally I think the reason more MO’s leave (As a percentage wise) is because the mo community is more accepting of people “less than MO” meaning you will get people who are more on the margins and a greater chance of leaving
It could work the other way – because a broader range of people can be accepted as MO, they should have less of a dropout rate.December 8, 2017 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1422845
Joseph, the chareidi mesorah of prioritizing sitting and learning all day only dates to the establishment of Israel. In the centuries leading up to ww2, only the best and brightest learned all day as the social state didn’t exist. If you wanted to eat, you had to work. There was no Meficaid etcDecember 8, 2017 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1422853
the chareidi mesorah of prioritizing sitting and learning all day only dates to the establishment of Israel. In the centuries leading up to ww2, only the best and brightest learned all day as the social state didn’t exist. If you wanted to eat, you had to work. There was no Meficaid etc
In other words, the ideals haven’t changed, but outside circumstances have, so that now people can learn for longer, which wasn’t possible in other generations. Had it been possible, they would have done so as well.
Is that what you’re saying?December 8, 2017 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1422860
When you accept a broader group of people you will get more a broader religious variance , even going into young Israels, the young Israel of Far Rockaway is very different than a young israel in Suffolk County, NY (Suffolk County NY has the lowest jewish religous observance rate of any of the NYC Suburban areas)December 8, 2017 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1422869
I think one can refer to the essay by HoRav Aharon Lopiansky to understand why MO is not Judaism lite compared to Chareidi. Which is what it seems that many here are assuming.
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