August 30, 2011 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #599014
I would like to alert the coffeeroom members to a halacha that’s little-known and often disregarded, even among people who otherwise know what they’re doing.
I noticed that when finishing the Amidah, many people take three steps back, and then bow left, right and center. This practice is clearly incorrect. See the passage below.
(Parentheses mine. CAPITAL LETTERS MINE OBVIOUSLY.)
The Shulchan Aruch, O.C. 123:1, says “One should bow (first), and (then) step three steps back, in ONE BOW. After he steps three steps back, WHILE STILL BOWING, BEFORE HE STRAIGHTENS UP, when he says “oseh shalom bimromav,” he should turn his face to his left side, and when he says, “hu ya’aseh shalom aleinu,” he should turn his head to his right side. And after that, he should bow in front, like a servant who is leaving his master.”
The Rama doesn’t argue. Neither does the Mishna Berura.
As a side point, I want to mention that there is NO MEKOR for the “minhag” to bounce after taking three steps forward. If you find one, let me know, but every rabbi who I have spoken to regarding this has confirmed it.August 30, 2011 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #803827ToiParticipant
you misseed out to get a bit lower each direction, but still make sure not to be bent over by the time you finish oseh shalom.August 30, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #803828HaLeiViParticipant
There is nothing incorrect with what you described, as long as you bow while going back.
Your second point was once discussed here, I think. As you say, nobody has a Mekor. I haven’t seen any Talmid Chacham do it, either.August 30, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #803829Sam2Participant
OVKTD: There are different Minhagim. The Shulchan Aruch is based mainly off the Sefer Chassidim that there are 5 bows in the Amidah, with the final one being before the three steps back. Enough people don’t do the fifth (and haven’t for many years) that there probably is some decent Halachic reationale behind it. But yes, it is proper to bow for that too.
About the bouncing thing. There is no source. I have always figured that it stems from the fact that in theory, when you take your three steps forward it is supposed to be right into the Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh of Kedusha, especially in the communities where the Tzibbor doesn’t say Nekadesh/Nakdishcha.August 30, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #803830YW Moderator-80Member
i dont believe there is a mekor for the 3 bounces but there is a good svorah
after standing in one position for so long you need to bounce the kinks out of your legs.August 30, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #803831ToiParticipant
sam- th episkei tshuvos aka the chassidishe milaket makes up a mekor from psukim. if i recall correctly he takes a posuk that talks about angels jumping over mountains (?mashehu kozeh) and says that could be a mekor. ba humbug.August 30, 2011 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #803832CheinMember
Three bounces during Kedusha?August 30, 2011 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #803833
We were taught in Cheder to do the three bounces after S”E,
are you calling our Rabbeim Ame Haaretz? 😉August 30, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #803834
HaLeiVi said: “There is nothing incorrect with what you described, as long as you bow while going back.”
What i described as incorrect did not include bowing while going back. Also, the Shulchan Aruch says it should be “bekri’ah achas.”August 30, 2011 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #803835
Sam2 said: “There are different Minhagim. The Shulchan Aruch is based mainly off the Sefer Chassidim that there are 5 bows in the Amidah, with the final one being before the three steps back. Enough people don’t do the fifth (and haven’t for many years) that there probably is some decent Halachic reationale behind it. But yes, it is proper to bow for that too.”
The Shulchan Aruch says it should be “bekri’ah achas.” That implies that the bow before the three steps back is the same as the bow after. If that’s the case, then EVERYONE is noheg to do the 5th bow, just many people wait until after the three steps. According to the Shulchan Aruch, that is incorrect, and I have yet to find a sefer which says otherwise.August 30, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #803836
bein_hasdorim said: “We were taught in Cheder to do the three bounces after S”E, are you calling our Rabbeim Ame Haaretz? ;)”
I can assume from the “;)” that the comment was made in jest. I have personally been taught by my some of rebbeim to do many other things which are clearly incorrect. It’s a problem.August 30, 2011 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #803837on the ballParticipant
bein hasdorim: If there is no Mekor in Halacha for it then it doesnt’t matter who teaches it – it’s incorrect. With the greatest respect for their Avodas Hakodesh, since when are Cheder Rebbes to be treated as Poskim?August 30, 2011 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #803838
oy vey ktd; I was just covering for some people. 😉
otb, AKA Off Track Betting; They hopefully should be proper Mechanchim and treated as such.August 30, 2011 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #803839brotherofursParticipant
oy vey- this is for sure the right way for every1? i was taught the one u described incorrect, and noone has told me that it’s wrong 🙁August 31, 2011 12:54 am at 12:54 am #803840
brotherofurs: I was taught that way also. I was also taught to say “Hodu al eretz veshamayim.” (It’s not “hodu,” it’s “hodo.”)
I cannot find any source that says to do it the way I described as incorrect. The Shulchan Aruch says to do it as quoted above. The Rema doesn’t argue, and the Mishna Berura doesn’t argue. If you find somewhere that says to do it the other way, let me know.August 31, 2011 1:37 am at 1:37 am #803841stickynoteMember
Moderator 80 LOL 🙂
Besides is there any harm in “bouncing”? 🙂August 31, 2011 2:46 am at 2:46 am #803842ItcheSrulikMember
OVKTD: My rebbi once said the ‘mekor’ for bouncing after the three steps forward is very simple. Really, you’re supposed stay where you stepped back to until kedusha when you step forward and bounce at the appropriate points. Somehow it got into people’s heads that it has something to do with stepping forward.
Sam2: Whether the sefer chasidim says it or not, I’m pretty sure the mekor is the RaMBaM. The shulchan aruch generally doesn’t bring the sefer Chasidim.
The reason it is important to stay bent the whole time is because “oseh shalom” is the fifth bow of shmoneh esrei (which the rambam says should be at the end of sim shalom, but we push it till after the “techinos” of elokai n’tzor) and if you get up in the middle you are bowing too many times, which the gemara calls yuhara.August 31, 2011 2:57 am at 2:57 am #803843brotherofursParticipant
oy vey- ok thnx 🙂 i’ll let u know b”HAugust 31, 2011 3:09 am at 3:09 am #803844
I may not be able to respond to any more responses for a while. I’m going back to yeshiva tomorrow.
🙂August 31, 2011 3:38 am at 3:38 am #803845ChachamParticipant
What about the common mistake that people make when backing up. The Halacha is to take three steps back. So many people do four five or six. The mechaber says it is yehoirah to do more than 3. ( the chazon ish held that you take a fourth half of step to straighten your feet). And ovktd I am also basically done with the cr for a while. I am going to bees madrash tomorrow afternoon, and pashtus I won’t be back until after yon kippur.August 31, 2011 5:39 am at 5:39 am #803846
I think the Mekor for bouncing 3 times is a Hechsher Mitzvah,
in practicing for kedusha. Make sure you get it right. 3 times, not four. It’s addictive, and if you don’t have practice it very easy to belt out like 5 or 6 before being able to stop.
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