January 11, 2011 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #594106
dont you think it got very out of hand and very goyish how people propose and get engaged now a days? l’phi aniyas dati i think that the whole proposal should be totally eradicated in the yiddishe culture (as it is in many families). the shadchan should arrange for things to be finalized and the chossen/kallah come home to a l’chaim….January 11, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #728100CedarhurstMember
bjjkid, I agree with you completely.January 11, 2011 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #728101
I’m confused. Are you saying merely that the shadchan should act as an intermediary in the actual question, or are you saying that the decision should be taken out of the chosson/kallah’s hands entirely and left to the shadchan and parents?
The WolfJanuary 11, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #728102
If the guy doesn’t have the guts to propose maybe he can rely on the shadchan but normally in most circles…the couple knows already before he proposes that they’re getting engaged and the guy proposes to make it official..
The actual source of proposing I don’t know..but if a guy proposes in a meaningful way it’s not goyish…
The proposing with bending down and asking will you marry me? is goyish and should prob. be avoidedJanuary 11, 2011 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #728103SJSinNYCMember
Wolfish, I think she’s proposing eliminating the actual question between the two parties.January 11, 2011 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #728104Avram in MDParticipant
The house is on fire, and you’re complaining about what type of front door was installed?January 11, 2011 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #728105rabbiofberlinParticipant
hmmmmm…..any REAL sources for asserting that proposing is “goyish”? last time I looked ,yaakov ovinu also ‘proposed” to lovon to marry his daughter.we have enough chumros without adding to the multitude of them…..January 11, 2011 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #728106mewhoParticipant
i thought she was referring to going for a helicopter ride or renting a limo to pop the questionJanuary 11, 2011 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #728107
Wolfish, I think she’s proposing eliminating the actual question between the two parties.
Perhaps… but I’d like confirmation from the OP.
The WolfJanuary 11, 2011 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #728108gavra_at_workParticipant
The proposal has its roots from when Keddushin & Nesuin were done at two separate times.
The keddushin was the proposal (call it a “betrothal”), and the nessuin was the Chuppah.
If anything should be changed (which I think it should not be), it should be changed back to that system.January 11, 2011 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #728109dunnoMember
How is a proposal “goyish”?January 11, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #728110mikehall12382Member
it’s over the top and puts to much preassure on everyone involved…January 11, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #728111ItcheSrulikMember
Is this proposal a “modest proposal?” 😉January 11, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #728112real-briskerMember
I disagree, There is nothing wrong with asking a simple question. Usually by the time they are ready to propose, they already know that it is official, and the l’chaim was already set up… and the shadchan is no longer the go between.January 11, 2011 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #728113
yes, i mean the question, not that the decision is out of the chossen and kallah’s hand just that the actual question and/or cutesy proposal is eliminatedJanuary 11, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #728114yeshivaguy1Participant
I guess this comes back to the original misconception that a husband and wife are nothing more than best friends. (did you speak to your parents yet, bjjkid) The proposal is about starting to build the connection between the guy and girl. It is about actually verbalizing (hopefully) to the girl his feeling for her and that he wants to spend the rest of his life together. This is the first step in building emotional closeness between them. Having a shadchan arrange it doesn’t accomplish much and is a copout from having to experience an emotional moment together. (Granted, all the crazy propsals don’t accomplish this either)January 11, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #728115tzippiMember
bjjkid, are you referring to extravaganzas involving other people, and making sure it’s all on the camera, etc. for posterity? Or just, as SJS says, having the shadchan do it all?
I think that you underestimate how meaningful a dignified and private proposal can be. Iy”H by you.
As far as privacy, I think it’s fine for the shadchan to be involved to the extent of there being someone for the boy to ask, if I would ask her now would she freak out?
And – call me goyish – but I think the boy should ask the parents’ permission, even though if they’re going out that long, duh, it’s understood that he could ask at any point.January 11, 2011 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #728116gavra_at_workParticipant
You should be so lucky to get proposed to.
As Avram said, the house is on fire.January 11, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #728117dunnoMember
I don’t like the very loud proposals which have all the chosson and kallah’s friends around. Not because it’s goyish – I just think it’s a private moment and wouldn’t want anyone else involved.January 11, 2011 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #728118
yaakov ovinu also ‘proposed” to lovon to marry his daughter, isnt this diff then proposing to the girl herself?January 11, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #728119
(did you speak to your parents yet, bjjkid) The proposal is about starting to build the connection between the guy and girl. It is about actually verbalizing (hopefully) to the girl his feeling for her and that he wants to spend the rest of his life together. yes, i spoke to my parents about what u said, i am not going into e/t they did, or did not agree with, however one thing that they made very clear was that there is mamish NO difference in status from before an engagement till after, there is just a commitment. as far as change in status, that only happens after kiddushen (the chassana)January 11, 2011 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #728120
“and the shadchan is no longer the go between” hu? not in my circles……January 11, 2011 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #728121
yes, i mean the question, not that the decision is out of the chossen and kallah’s hand just that the actual question and/or cutesy proposal is eliminated
Thanks for the confirmation.
That being said, I’m not sure what, exactly, your problem with a proposal is (your OP was terribly unclear on the matter). Can you please articulate what, exactly, is so bad about a proposal that you propose banning it for all?
The WolfJanuary 11, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #728122
I’m just curious if they taught you in BJJ(if you really went there) that a guy can’t ask you if you would like to build a BNB with him???
Doesn’t sound goyish at all and by the time your up to it you should be comfortable enough together that speaking privately about getting married should be fine.
A frum ehrlich nice guy/yeshiva bochor would know how to ask you in a B’Kovodika way…Doesn’t that sound fine?January 11, 2011 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #728123YW Moderator-80Member
the proposal should be done with reverence and kovod not with narishkeit. it is the beginning of Kedushah. but there is nothing goyish about such a proposal.January 11, 2011 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #728124SJSinNYCMember
Define kedusha Mod80.
My husband proposed on the beach at sunrise. He spoke a lot about starting our life new. A fresh start. About building a family and a Torah home.
I thought sunrise was fitting for that.January 11, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #728125real-briskerMember
bjjkid – what im saying is that if you are holding by the stage of prposing, hopefully you dont need the shadchan to ask, you should both be on the same level.January 11, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #728126eclipseMember
It’s like a birthday party.It can be done tastefully and meaningfully,or “over the top”–which dilutes the spiritual aspects.January 11, 2011 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #728127boredstiffParticipant
SJS- there is a thing to propose by water. Many peaple propose there but I forgot the reason for it.January 11, 2011 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #728128popa_bar_abbaParticipant
At what point is it acceptable for a man and woman to have an honest and open relationship?
Is it ok after they have a child? After the child’s bar mitzva?January 11, 2011 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #728129crdleMember
BJJ- I f you did go to BJJ, then what kind of circle are you in, that once you get past the first few dates, you don’t drop the shadchan?
usually after the first few its bye bye shadchanJanuary 11, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #728130
I was wondering the same thing….you can keep the shadchan as a back up support for real issues that do come up…but normally you drop the shadchan and he makes the dates after the 4th (around)
unless you do the 5 dates and engaged…don’t see him during engagement and a year later you get married thing..you never know..I guess to each his own..January 11, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #728131yeshivaguy1Participant
I agree that the engagement doesn’t change the status of the relationship (halachicly) it’s just a commitment. The point I was trying to make is that there has to be a physical attraction and an emotional attachment before that commitment is made ( and definitely before marriage- the ultimate commitment). Your flippant attitude here and on other posts, calling marriage nothing more than best friends, for example, makes me wonder about how much you really understand about marriage.
Assuming you really are dating you better learn fast or you will get the shock of your life when you get engaged.January 11, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #728133
Even very frum yeshivish girls told me how beautifully their husbands proposed.
They all said that it was done tastefully and BeKavodik they still remember it and we’re talking about very ehrlich,solid yeshivish kollel yungeliet!!!!!
I don’t see the point in not proposing..
IY”H (BKarov)when your chosson proposes just don’t stop him and tell him..It doesn’t Pas to propose and have the shadchan call me…
As yeshivaguy said….Before you start dating make sure you have a Reb. or mentor other then your parents to give you advice sounds like you should be clear on whether your taking everything on yourself too fast!
Which has to be done with extreme caution… make sure you know yourself well enough before you go out dating guys who you will try to get to know…January 12, 2011 1:09 am at 1:09 am #728134ItcheSrulikMember
Nobody reads Jonathan Swift?January 12, 2011 1:31 am at 1:31 am #728135
Bjjkid, for most of us, if a shadchan is needed to propose for the boy, he is too much of a boy and not enough of a man yet, to be getting married. there is nothing goyish about proposing. My son in law took my daughter to the Vanderbilt Museum to see the planetarium. It was very romantic seeing all those stars. After the show, he took her to a beautiful spot on the grounds, where he had roses and some other things he’d set up waiting for them, and proposed to her. Please do not try to lessen the impact of that beautiful and unforgettable moment for her, by saying you think it was “goyish.” By all means live your life differently if you so desire, but don’t cast a negative pall on it, just because you don’t feel it’s a Jewish thing to do. By the way, it is a very Jewish thing – I am sure Shlomo Hamelech would have had something to say about it. He wrote very romantically in Shir Hashirim, and even though we say it was an allegory of the loving relationship between Hashem and Am Yisroel, nevertheless the terminology which he uses proves that he had a very romantic soul.January 12, 2011 4:29 am at 4:29 am #728136GabboimMember
How did Yeshivaleit propose in Europe?January 13, 2011 1:48 am at 1:48 am #728137wiseguyMember
you need to define “goyish proposing” before you say it should be eradicated. “over the top” isn’t enough. maybe thats how the guy expresses himself to her. maybe thats how “their circle” does things. you cant just go and say special moments with a chosson and kallah should just be forgotten about.January 13, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #728138ProfessionalMember
BJJ, you seem busy with settling, external expressions (goish or not). you seem unready. it takes time to land from seminary to real life. better not to get married before you are ready. it takes time, maturity and understanding what relationships are, and what is it you envision. your dream will get more vivid with time, you will get more clarity. if you date now, its because your friends do. dont jump into anything yet, you need to be ready. your marriage will be better when you do it with more life tools and understanding. and that comes with time.January 13, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #728139
My husband proposed on the beach at sunrise. He spoke a lot about starting our life new. A fresh start. About building a family and a Torah home.
How beautiful!!!!! And romantic, too. My husband started sending me roses every day for the twelve days preceeding our engagement, adding a new one (kind of like the menorah) each day, until I had a total of 78 red roses. He took me out for dinner to the restaurant at which we had our first date (remember Rosenbloom and Rosetti’s?), and proposed to me in the car before we went in. I told him I would give my answer AFTER dinner. :::fleeing:::
During dinner we were served a complimentary glass of wine, and I picked up my glass, and said, “Mazel tov, Chosson!” The restaurant comped dessert for us when we told them. And I got the best deal of my life, going on 34 years now, bli ayin hara.January 13, 2011 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #728140
I wanted to offer my own take on why there might be an inyan of proposing by the water. First of all, the Torah is referred to as Mayim, and this should be a reminder to the chosson and kallah that their home should always be pervaded with Torah. Also, the fish of the sea represent fertility, and thus the water is a nice place to begin that new chapter in their life together, witht eh wish for their union to be blessed with children. I am also thinking that just as the water appears superficial on the surface, there is greater depth to it, and so is marriage a point at which we take our superficial feelings of attraction and “love” and find out within marriage that there is more depth to the emotions invested in a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel.January 13, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #728141anon for thisParticipant
bjjkid, you wrote:
“yaakov ovinu also ‘proposed” to lovon to marry his daughter, isnt this diff then proposing to the girl herself?”
Actually, I think some meforshim explain that Yaakov gave Rachel the simanim (that she later shared with Leah) at the well, which means he must have proposed to her then also.January 13, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #728142Sister BearMember
If you don’t want your husband to propose to you and you’d rather do it through a shadchan, then by all means, do that.
But that doesn’t mean that its wrong to propose per se, (like tons of people here already said) they way some people do it may be wrong but that doesn’t mean its inherently wrong.January 14, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #728143Divorced_GuyMember
According to my sister who is an active, litvish, shadchan in Lakewood, this was how it was 15-20 years ago (i.e., going without shadchan after 4-5 dates), but now the frum litvish use a shadchan all the way and engagement is discussed through the shadchan as well.
I am referring to below:
“I was wondering the same thing….you can keep the shadchan as a back up support for real issues that do come up…but normally you drop the shadchan and he makes the dates after the 4th (around)
unless you do the 5 dates and engaged…don’t see him during engagement and a year later you get married thing..you never know..I guess to each his own..”January 14, 2011 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #728144not IMember
Inyan of proposing by the water- In Tanach a new king was anointed by water as a symbol of flowing water, continuous kingship..
Here too The boy is now ready to be crowned a king and the kalla a queen of the new home they are building!…
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