March 11, 2018 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1486563
Some don’t put Tefilin on. Others put it on with a brocho and others put it on without a brocho. My custom is to put it on with a brocho like the Rosh and the RMA.March 11, 2018 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1486584
I like cookies on Chol hamoed. Macaroons if it’s pesach. Its my minhag.March 12, 2018 8:21 am at 8:21 am #1486727
This topic has already been done ad nauseam.
Close this thread and go read and comment on any of the other threads on this topic.March 12, 2018 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1486755
Since when to we close threads when this happens? Especially since the website’s overhaul, the old thread will probably look something like this:
“????????????? ?????? ????????”
????????????????????????????March 12, 2018 9:53 am at 9:53 am #1486762
The Shiltei Hagiborim in Moed Katan on Kosvim Tefilin Bemoed says that the os sign is the prohibition of work on Yom Tov. Many say that a negative behavior by not doing work is not an os. The GRA’s view is that eating matzos on the rest of the days besides the first is a קיום מצוה similarly sitting in the sukkah is also a קיום מצוה. This makes it a an Os.March 12, 2018 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1486836
So the consensus is that one should put on Teffilin during chol hamoed but should only do so when sitting in the area where one normally has built a sukkah and must follow the davening by eating a pas gebrokts. Whats clear is there are more minhagim than there are gadolim and other chashuve rabboniom who can be cited as the source of the minhag. I cannot think of any other yom tov or chag where there seems to be so many variations of what was once a fairly prescribed routine.March 12, 2018 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1486909
Also according the Shiltei Hagiborim quoted above, if one must go to work on chal hamoed should put on tefilin.March 12, 2018 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1486908
The Rambam in the beginning 6th Perek of Hilchas Chometz and Matzah
seems to argue on the GRA that eating matzos the rest of the eight days is a rashus (unclear what it means not a chiyuv but a mitzva or no mitzva at all).March 12, 2018 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1486980
Those who put on tefilin on chol hamoed there is an interesting custom based on the Chok Yaakov the first day chol hamoed pesach, to keep on the tefilin until after laining for the reading of Kadesh.March 12, 2018 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1487389
laskern: It is more specifically for the pesukim….(13:9) טוְהָיָה֩ לְךָ֨ לְא֜וֹת עַל־יָֽדְךָ֗ וּלְזִכָּרוֹן֙ בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֔יךָ לְמַ֗עַן תִּֽהְיֶ֛ה תּוֹרַ֥ת יְהֹוָ֖ה בְּפִ֑יךָ כִּ֚י בְּיָ֣ד חֲזָקָ֔ה הוֹצִֽאֲךָ֥ יְהֹוָ֖ה מִמִּצְרָֽיִם:
and (13:16) וְהָיָ֤ה לְאוֹת֙ עַל־יָ֣דְכָ֔ה וּלְטֽוֹטָפֹ֖ת בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֑יךָ כִּ֚י בְּחֹ֣זֶק יָ֔ד הֽוֹצִיאָ֥נוּ יְהֹוָ֖ה מִמִּצְרָֽיִם:March 12, 2018 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1487442
Be careful about copying shemos, I don’t know if this website has a kedushah. If you printing this out the Taz says that printed material has a kedushah.March 12, 2018 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1487795
“So the consensus is that one should put on Teffilin during chol hamoed but should only do so when sitting in the area where one normally has built a sukkah and must follow the davening by eating a pas gebrokts.”
Brilliant. Baruch Hashem someone remembers it’s still Adar.
“I cannot think of any other yom tov or chag where there seems to be so many variations of what was once a fairly prescribed routine.”
To be fair, tefillin on chol hamoed has nothing to do with Pesach specifically.March 12, 2018 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1487803
Yes it does. As mentioned before we lain on first day chol hamoed the parshah of tefillin Kadesh. It is related to yetzias mitzraim.March 12, 2018 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1487805
To Neville Chamberlin….its not just teffilin on Moed which obviously has wider context but more narrowly the sheer number of special mihgaim which I think there are more related to pesach than succos.
Or as a last minue purim sugyah, what do the araba minim of succos have in common with the arba koses shel peseach and the arban banim of the hagadah? Winner gets a gift-certificate to the new “all you can eat” non-gebrokts chulent place on 13th Avenue.March 13, 2018 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1488311
GH, actually, it’s not a purim sugya. If I recall correctly, R’ YY Jacobson spoke about it last year. I need to find it. I remember it being fascinating.
“Whats clear is there are more minhagim than there are gadolim and other chashuve rabboniom who can be cited as the source of the minhag”
Minhagim don’t come from gedolim or chashuve rabonim. They are passed down in mesorah in a family. It has been said, the mishna berura was written for baalei tshuva and geirim, who follow the strict halocha. If someone has a minhag which is ‘oisgehalten’ (based on a solid source i.e. not a minhag shtus) then it is preferable to the generally paskened halacha.March 13, 2018 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1488515
We have a saying in my house, as many customs, as many houses.
Remember the Chasam Sofer גהנם are the reverse letters for מנהג.
The RMA O”CH 690:17 says that we should not eliminate any minhogim. There is a reason why it was instituted.March 13, 2018 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1488561
I am not one who enjoys “Purim Torah” making fun of accepted practices in yiddishkeit. That being said, there was never a prescribed way of doing things. The Mishna in Pesachim (4:1): מְקוֹם שֶׁנָּהֲגוּ לַעֲשׂוֹת מְלָאכָה בְּעַרְבֵי פְסָחִים עַד חֲצוֹת, עוֹשִׂין. מְקוֹם שֶׁנָּהֲגוּ שֶׁלֹּא לַעֲשׂוֹת, אֵין עוֹשִׂין. הַהוֹלֵךְ מִמְּקוֹם שֶׁעוֹשִׂין לִמְקוֹם שֶׁאֵין עוֹשִׂין, אוֹ מִמְּקוֹם שֶׁאֵין עוֹשִׂין לִמְקוֹם שֶׁעוֹשִׂין, נוֹתְנִין עָלָיו חֻמְרֵי מָקוֹם שֶׁיָּצָא מִשָּׁם וְחֻמְרֵי מָקוֹם שֶׁהָלַךְ לְשָׁם. וְאַל יְשַׁנֶּה אָדָם, מִפְּנֵי הַמַּחֲלֹקֶת: So we see even from earlier generations we had different “minhagim”.March 13, 2018 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #1488885
There is a story in the shul of the Chasam Sofer in a certain place in the shul people would bend their heads. It was lower than anywhere else, but after they fixed it, they still bent down their heads.March 14, 2018 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1489078
90% of Pesach minhagim are methods of making the seder night more fun. Understandably, the only things people want to talk about in the CR are chumrahs.March 14, 2018 9:41 am at 9:41 am #1489105
Actually as far as i understand, NOT putting on tfillin on chol hamoed is a chumrah. People who don’t have a set minhag, are told not to start. Rabeinu Tam tfilin are never worn on chol hamoed.
When I moved back from EY to England, Rav Moshe Sternbuch told me to be matir neder (as I had the minhag from home before living in EY), and even then to put on tfilin after davening, betzin’a (i.e at home), without a brocho.March 14, 2018 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1489217
The Mordechai writes that they found a set of tefillin in the grave of Yecheskel hanovi like Rashi. So we see that Rashi is the right one. The Drishe says that maybe they hid it because it was no good. They say that if that is the case, then they did not have to hide it just reset the parshios in the rosh. So chol hamoed people don’t tend to put on Rabbenu Taam’s tefillin because of safek safeka maybe we don’t put on tefillin and if we do, maybe Rashi’s is the correct one as most views are like Rashi.March 14, 2018 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1489219
G613: i am not sure what you mean by a “chumra”. The Mechaber paskens it is assur and the Ramah says that one is chayiv to wear. However, many hold like the GRA and do not wear tefillin. I don’t know where the word chumra applies here.March 14, 2018 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1489299
laskern, As far as I know Rabeinu Tam himself held it’s ossur to wear tfilin on chol hamoed. It would be a tosfos in menochos, if that is so.
But the main reason Chassidim and Sfardim don’t wear tfilin of Rabeinu Tam is nistar. Apparently, in Toras nistar, one who wears tefilin on Chol Hamoed is chayav misa. And in toras nistar the halacha is like rabeinu tam. So Chassidim & Sfardim who pasken like, or at least are choshesh for Toras Nistar refrain.
iacisrmma, Ok, so I’m not sure if chumra is the right word, maybe hiddur is better. But let’s say a baal teshuva or a ger who has no set set minhag, who asks if he should wear tfilin on chol hamoed, is told not to. So what I mean by chumra, is that one fulfills more opinions by not wearing than by wearing. Similarly, someone who stops wearing, like myself while I was living in Eretz Yisroel, has to be matir neder if he wants to start again for whatever reason.
A ben EY who comes to chutz laaretz for yom tov, does not wear tfilin on Chh”m, a ben chu”l in EY also does not (at all according to many opinions) and certainly not in public.
I would be interested if anyone knows about what would happen, in a place like KAJ, Washington Heights, where the minhag is definitely Jekkisch. Does EVERYONE wear tefilin chol hamoed? Even baalei tshuva and geirim?March 14, 2018 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #1489536
I would be interested if anyone knows about what would happen, in a place like KAJ, Washington Heights, where the minhag is definitely Jekkisch. Does EVERYONE wear tefilin chol hamoed? Even baalei tshuva and geirim?
Why would an established baalei tshuva or ger (not newly minted) be any different in this regard than someone frum from birth?March 14, 2018 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1489551
The sefer haminhagim brings an implication to put on tefillin on chol hamoed. If you take the pasuk about tefillin שם ה נקרא has the beginning letters שין indicating that there are 300 days in the year when you put on tefillin. If you remove from 365, 52 shabbosim and 13 holidays (4 pesach, 2 shavuos, 2 rosh hashonoh, 4 sukkas, 1 yom kippur) we get exactly 300 days when we put on tefillin.March 14, 2018 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1489559
Only according to the Zohar (Rabbi Shimon) who holds Pesochim 28:1 that chometz is only forbidden biblically from the night on. He compares chametz to matzah. The time when you are obligated to eat matzah you are forbidden to eat chametz. Asks the Pnei Yeshuah what about the whole seven days? He answers that Rabbi Shimon’s view is that there is an obligation of matzah the whole seven days. The os is the eating of matzoh but we only hold that the mitzva is only the first day so there is no os except the GRA whose view is that there is a mitzva kiyumis, See the Shut Kol Aryeh siman 30.March 14, 2018 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1489616
Laskern, since a non-leap year has either 353, 354, or 355 days then within 365 days you have Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur twice which would be an extra 3 days. How would this be accounted for by the Sefer Haminhagim.March 14, 2018 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1489667
Joseph, established baalei would have a minhag once they reach their first chol hamoed. You assume they would do the same thing everytime afterwards.March 14, 2018 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1489668
iacisrmma, you have a very good question, but even the Rabbenu Bachaye, a sefardi, mentions this pshat in Parshas Ki Savo.March 14, 2018 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1489672
Joseph: He seems to be working off the assumption that all Baalei Teshuva and Geirim refrain from wrapping tefillin on Chol Hamoed. I think this has come up in the CR before. It is totally mythical; I have no idea where the idea originated. There is no such thing as a specific mesora for non-FFB’s. A better question would be, do minhag haGra folks have to wrap tefillin in KAJ to not be over on lo tisgodedu?
By the way, guys, when I said people only want to talk about chumrahs, I was actually deviating from the OP of this thread as I thought that’s where Gadol was going. I did not mean to refer to either tefillin minhag as a “chumrah.”March 14, 2018 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1489760
I just remembered that they are certain rules for postponement of Rosh Hashanah see Rambam Kidush Hachodesh 7. This is made up by the designation of Cheshvan and Kislev whether they choser, molei or kesidron. See the calendar in the Tur in Hilchas Rosh Chodesh just before Hilchas Pesach.March 14, 2018 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1489928
In our shul, people putting on tefillin are separated in the women’s section as per Reb Moshe’s view to avoid Lo Sisgodedu.March 14, 2018 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1489962
I have no idea where this minhag came from, but my father would only put on Tefillin during chol hamoed if he had to work (he was a butcher & people needed supplies.) To be honest, I had never heard of anyone else putting on Tefillin ever during chol hamoed.March 14, 2018 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1490514
To GODALHADORAH (sic)
The connection between ARBA BONIM on Pesach, and ARBA MINIM on Succos, is that we have Four Sons, and we deal with them as follows: the Chacham, we put in yeshivs, & teach him “kol ha Tora kulo”. The Rasha we banish, we send him away. The Tam & Sheino yodea lishol, we try to deal with them according to their abilities. “Chanoch l’naar al pi darko”.
Es kummt Succos, & we see we have Arbo Minim, i.e. Apikorsim?! What happened? We threw out the Rasha, and he spoiled everyone else, the all became Minim! What is the refuah? Like we say by “Netilas Lulav”, “Vehayu la’achodim beyodi”.March 14, 2018 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1490614
We keep the four children together in Pesach and the four minim on Sukkas, because if you separate the rasha, the arovas, the end will be we will have to knock him down.March 14, 2018 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1490616
laskern, That is the generally accepted minhag where the shul minhag is NOT to wear tfilin. In a shul where the minhag IS to wear tfilin, e.g. Yekkish or Litvish, generally the non-tfilin wearers daven in the main shul. The reasoning is because often it does happen that people daven without tfilin for various reasons. Therefore it is not obvious that they are differing from the shul’s minhag.
hml, very interesting. But the story needs context. Are you chassidish or sfardi? Are you in EY? etc.March 14, 2018 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1490626
Over here is the opposite. We, who put on tefillin are a minority, so we are being exiled to the women’s section.March 14, 2018 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1490623
“He seems to be working off the assumption that all Baalei Teshuva and Geirim refrain from wrapping tefillin on Chol Hamoed. I think this has come up in the CR before. It is totally mythical; I have no idea where the idea originated. There is no such thing as a specific mesora for non-FFB’s. A better question would be, do minhag haGra folks have to wrap tefillin in KAJ to not be over on lo tisgodedu?”
I got this idea from talking to and learning the seforim of HaRav Moshe Sternbuch. We were members of his kehilla in Johannesburg, and I asked all my big shaalos to him when living in EY. It’s not that there is a mesora for non-FFBs, but as i wrote above someone who doesn’t have a minhag, would take on the minhag of his Rav/Rebbe (I didn’t write that earlier but i should’ve) or default to the halacha as paskened in Mishna Brura.
Maybe it can be compared to waiting 3 hours from meat to milk. It is a major kula, but accepted in many kehillas. You can’t just decide to take it on because many other great people accept it, without having it in your mesora.
Regarding a Gra-nik in KAJ, I imagine they build a special area in the shul cordoned off from the tefilin wearers, and give them special piyutim to say with the notes to sing the nigun in the correct nusach.March 15, 2018 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1491265
I am not sure where laskern is but R’ Moshe Feinstein held that here in NY, since we emigrated from all over, everyone knows there are two minhagim and there is no problem of Lo Tisgodedu when davening in the same minyan during Chol Hamoed.March 15, 2018 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1491497
Geordie: OK, you do have a very good understanding; I guess I mininterpreted. Now, I’m not sure I get your original question: If the ger/BT learned from a Rabbi in the Yekkishe shul, then he would take on that rabbi’s minhag (wrap tefillin). If he defaulted to the M”B, he would wrap tefillin without the brachah like the M”B says. Was the question just regarding the brachah?
On a side note, 3 hours is a bigger problem given that it’s only based in family tradition rather than having a source in the poskim.March 15, 2018 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1491501
In Staten island, NY, a talmid from R’ Moshe holds that we should be separated.March 15, 2018 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1491524
NCB. Thanks for the compliment.
That’s why we have a Rov, and don’t pasken from the CR.
Just thinking, the Yeshiva guys are coming back in the next few days. Yekke2, if you’re around, I’d appreciate your input here.March 17, 2018 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1492098
Yekke2, if you’re around, I’d appreciate your input here.
Not sure what input you looking for!
The debate regarding wearing tefillin on Chol Hamoed dates back to the Rishonim, of course. Tosfos in Menachos 36b writes that one must wear tefillin on Chol Hamoed, wheras Tosfos in Eruvin 96a writes that Chol HoMoed is an Ois. As far as Nistar is concerned – הנסתרות לה’ אלקינו; I can’t help you with that. In the world of Nigleh, the discussion is whether Chol HaMoed is considered an Ois (two primary discussions: a) Does the Issur Melachah of Chol HaMoed constitute an Ois, and b) Does the Issur Chometz/Chiyuv Sukka constitute an Ois).
As far as Halachah is concerned, the Tur brings both opinions, and the Mechaber and Rema argue about it in O”ch 31. Wearing Tefillin on Chol Hamoed is not Ba’al Tosif even according to the Shittas that חול המועד לאו זמן תפילין, because you are doing it מחמת ספק, and your כוונה is only on the tzad chiyuv. (Not that simple as far as the Rishonim are concerned, but bottom line Halachah it isn’t a problem. See Magen Avraham 31.2)
I don’t know whether it would be considered a chumra or a kulla. The consequences of wearing tefillin in the wrong time is זלזול יום טוב and זלזול תפילין, and the consequences of not wearing tefillin is possibly being מבטל an עשה, although not necessarily. (See here for further discussion.)
Reb Moshe does not allow wearing Tefillin in a shul which does not, or vice versa (Igros Moshe O”CH Chelek 4 Siman 34), both because of לא תתגודדו and מפני המחלוקת. As far as Eretz Yisroel is concerned, see Igros Moshe O”CH Chelek 4 Siman 105.4.
[Geordie613 – See R’ Moshe Shternbuch here.]March 17, 2018 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1492099
Geordie, I now live in EY, my father was UK born & bred, a yekke (my zeidie was born in Vienna) but my altere zeidie was an Aleksander chasid who would follow the Sossover Rebbe in London. Complicated pedigree! This is one of those times when I wish I could ask my father all these questions… there’s no one left to ask.March 18, 2018 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1492281
The Aleksander chosid is the key. That’s why he wouldn’t have worn tfilin on a regular chol hamoed day.
Here’s an interesting one. Apparently in Sanz, bochurim do wear tfilin on chol hamoed. So that includes Bobov and klausenberg. Can anyone confirm that?March 18, 2018 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1492280
Yekke2, welcome back! 🙂
Actually my request to you was more to do with the Yekkishe minhag. Let’s say a baal tshuva or a ger joins the GGBH or Breuers. From the way you answered I would think you’re saying he would take on the minhag hamokom.March 18, 2018 8:42 am at 8:42 am #1492285
How do they deal with someone who is not noheg to wear tfilin if he comes in and davens?March 18, 2018 8:51 am at 8:51 am #1492289
Thank you, Geordie613!
Here’s an interesting one. Apparently in Sanz, bochurim do wear tfilin on chol hamoed. So that includes Bobov and klausenberg. Can anyone confirm that?
I know in Bobov they do until 18. Don’t know about Klausenberg.March 18, 2018 8:52 am at 8:52 am #1492290
Actually my request to you was more to do with the Yekkishe minhag. Let’s say a baal tshuva or a ger joins the GGBH or Breuers. From the way you answered I would think you’re saying he would take on the minhag hamokom.
Why would this be different to any other machlokes haposkim?
How do they deal with someone who is not noheg to wear tfilin if he comes in and davens?
I have seen it before in GGBH and I didn’t notice any reaction. There was a reaction, however, when a non-regular who davens in a minyan where they don’t wear tefillin came to GGBH because he was worried about wearing tefillin there, and he didn’t put on a tallis (he wasn’t married). One of the regulars pointed out the irony of coming here to avoid לא תתגודדו and still not wearing a tallis.March 18, 2018 8:58 am at 8:58 am #1492293
Is it any different than a Yekke bochor wearing a Talis in a Litvish/Chasidish shul (or a Litvish/Chasidish bochor not wearing a Talis in a Yekke shul)?
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