question about rabbenu tam zman for ending shabbos

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  • #601733

    mik5
    Participant

    I end Shabbos at the zman of Rabbenu Tam (72 minutes after shkiah, though I usually wait even longer for tosfos shabbos). The shul I was in today davened Maariv and made havdalah about 50 minutes after shkiah. Am I allowed to participate in the davening even it’s still Shabbos for me? Am I yotzei with the shul’s Havdalah in this situation?

    I don’t believe that every Jew is necessarily obligated to wait 72 min. However, I personally choose to do this and it’s a neder b/c I did it more than three times. Comments?

    #845607

    dash™
    Participant

    One is permited to Daven before the Zman. Making Havdalah before the Zman (without a candle) is a bit more complicated and IIRC it can only be done when the person cannot do it after the Zman.

    Regarding Havdalah after the Zman but before the time your Minhag is to end Shabbas (unless you really follow Rabbenu Tam) you could be Yotzei if you wanted to but probably wouldn’t want to.

    #845608

    147
    Participant

    To answer your question mik5, we would need more information, the most pertanent being at which latitude you are residing? If you are as far North as Rabbeinu Tam & his contemporaries resided, then there may be some serious obligation to await 72 minutes. Assuming you live somewhat closer to the equator, and if you reside in the USA or/& Israel this is the case, clearly 72 minutes is way longer than the time it takes to get dark & have 3 stars emerge, therefore some fabricated Chumro cannot override any Chiyuv; This includes absolutely not keeping leather shoes on your feet past regular Zeman on Tischo b’Ov nite, not delaying Channukah candle lighting beyond 1/2 hour from real Zeman, not delaying Seder nite commencement when kids may fall asleep & you may miss Afikomen by Chatzos.

    As for your specific questions, you absolutely must participate in the Minjan for Maariv, and you were absolutely Yotzei Havdolo at your Shoule.

    #845609

    longarekel
    Member

    147: I understand that you follow the Sefardi custom and that’s fine. But please don’t denigrate those who follow the opinion of Rabbeinu Tam and call it a ‘fabricated chumra’. Also please note that Rav Yosef Karo paskens like Rabbeinu Tam in Shulchan Aruch O.C. 261-2. No mention of a specific latitude is made. Although Sefardim do not seem to follow the view of Maran in this case, it cannot be called a ‘fabricated chumra’.

    #845610

    147
    Participant

    To Longarekel:- I am an full fledged Aschkenazi, with no Sephardi blood from any branch of my ancestry.

    May I also bring to your attention a little known astronomical fact, that it takes approximately 7-9 minutes less to get dark around equinox time, than at solstice time. Hence even if 72 minutes was time it takes to get dark around June 21 & December 21, around March 21 {near Seder nite time} & September 21, it takes less than 72 minutes to get dark.

    #845611

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    147,

    some fabricated Chumro

    Although it’s true that there is a kasya on applying Rabbeinu Tam’s opinion ti certain lattitudes (the G’ra asks it), there were many poskim who did so. In Europe (and even for a short time in the US), some communities kept Rabbeinu Tam even as a kula.

    You should refrain from posting your guesses as fact. This is not the first time that you have “fabricated” halachos based on your sevaros, as appealing as they may be.

    #845612

    zukebutt
    Member

    these questions belong on mi yodeya

    #845613

    Per longarekel.

    I myself used to keep motza”sh per Rabbeinu Tam ‘bli neder’ but would often daven before that, just not do havdala or any melachos before that.

    As of late I haven’t really been doing that very much since I live in a place where (almost) nobody does so and in summer in particular, honestly, I think it’s late enough already when shabbos is out at 11:15 PM or so!

    #845614

    uneeq
    Member

    147:clearly 72 minutes is way longer than the time it takes to get dark & have 3 stars emerge, therefore some fabricated Chumro cannot override any Chiyuv

    Maran lived in E”Y and he paskened midina in siman 261 like rabbenu tam. Is he considered to you “a fabricator of chumros”?

    Mik5:Am I yotzei with the shul’s Havdalah in this situation?

    I’ve been to R’ Ovadia’s shul, who paskens like rabbenu tam, and he himself makes the havdala after 60 minutes (I think someone else drinks though). However it is mentioned in M”B to not be yotzei havdala in shul, in order to be able to get out of problems in being motzi the women. For example a woman cannot bless “borei meorei ha’esh” so in order to get out of problems of bracha lebatala it is better to not be yotzei in shul. Or you can be yotzei and let her make all the brachas besides for borei meorei haesh.

    longarekel I understand that you follow the Sefardi custom and that’s fine.

    Actually, many Sfardim do follow Rabbenu Tam. See chazon ovadia (I think chelek 1 page 89) where he brings down many rishonim that hold like rabbenu tam, and he paskens very strongly to hold 72. I’m actually unsure of the reasons why any Sfardi wouldn’t hold 72. The old opinion that rabbenu tam paskened only for his place is shot down by R’ Ovadia, based on the fact that Rabbenu Tam got his shitta from the machloket of tannaim living and arguing about Israel. And those who claim that it’s all based on metzius, should know that Maran saw the metzius many years and still paskened like rabbenu tam IN ISRAEL. So it shouldn’t make a difference which country you’re living in, if you hold like Maran, you should hold 72.

    #845615

    squeak
    Participant

    It’s mefurash in the Tos’ in zevachim where R”T shitta is brought down that it is in reference to a specific latitude, namely that of Jerusalem (the location of the beis hamikdosh).

    Now that we have established that, just what latitude exactly did you think R”T lived in, and why do you think that most people live closer to the equator? New York is farther north than, say, France.

    Sounds like the fabrication here are the facts that tou, I mean jou, have presented.

    #845616

    I’m a little hazy as to the origin of the 72 minute zman. Yerushayim is roughly as far south as Savannah Georgia. Clearly 3 kochavim beinonim are visible long before 72 minutes and Maran must have known that, living as he did in Tsfas. As I recall, the length of bein hashmashos is related to the time it takes to walk a specific distance. I don’t remember if it was a mil or a parsang. Can anyone lend some clarity to this?

    #845617

    MDG
    Participant

    “I’ve been to R’ Ovadia’s shul, who paskens like rabbenu tam, and he himself makes the havdala after 60 minutes “

    Rav Ovadia holds 72 minutes b’shaot z’maniot, which can vary depending on the time of year and latitude. So according to him 60 minutes could have been 72.

    #845618

    uneeq
    Member

    MDG: Rav Ovadia holds 72 minutes b’shaot z’maniot, which can vary depending on the time of year and latitude. So according to him 60 minutes could have been 72.

    I personally know from a family member of his that he holds sha’ot zmaniot, but only lechumra. In the summer time he usually keeps 85-90 minutes and even in the winter time for some reason he doesn’t do less than 80. I was gonna write this before, but I felt no need.

    #845619

    Feif Un
    Participant

    R’ Moshe Feinstein checked to see exactly how long it is until tzeis in the NY area. He paskened that it is 50 minutes after sunset.

    #845620

    MDG
    Participant

    “and even in the winter time for some reason he doesn’t do less than 80.”

    What’s that based on? Is it al pi din for Shabbat or is it for Tesefet Shabbat?

    #845621

    uneeq
    Member

    What’s that based on? Is it al pi din for Shabbat or is it for Tesefet Shabbat?

    I really don’t know why, I can try to find out though. However, I was told it wasn’t al pi din, rather just a chumra.

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