Question for Jewish Democrats

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  • #1660059

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Editing instead of deleting is a favor not an obligation.”

    Your complaints are silly, without basis and fortunately quite out of character. 

    #1660078

    Joseph
    Participant

    RY23: Non-Whites are appropriately taxed.

    #1660086

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Joseph, I do not know what you mean to say.

    #1660192

    Joseph
    Participant

    RY23, that’s exactly how I like it.

    #1660144

    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, if you are not willing to put your religious beliefs into secular law at least be consistent. Don’t cry about chesed (and BTW, by definition chesed is something that is not enforceable as it involves going above and beyond), which might not even apply to Noahides. The proof of your hypocrisy is your statement “The fact that abortion and same sex marriage is legal doesn’t mean anyone in the CR will partake; which is why I don’t see these things as a threat” (which is not correct – see Bereisheet Rabba, 26:5 that the Flood came because of this).

    Regarding Obamacare, it is another massive Federal boondoggle that will collapse of its own weight. It is not for nothing that the US has a federal system.

    Same-sex “marriage” is not enabling. The state gives its stamp of approval by issuing a marriage license. Of course, one could take the libertarian position that the state should get out of the marriage business and treat everyone as an individual. If any two people want to call themselves married that is their business. In any case, where is the tikkun olam here? The same goes for abortion.

    I do agree with you though that people should vote for local candidates on the basis of local issues. Who cares what someone’s position is on the Iraq war if he will have no say regarding it? This is also true of a parliamentary system.

    #1660164

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @rebyidd23
    Social Security is a tax on most working people: Rich, Poor, White and non-White
    The difference is that most who reach the wage point where Social Security has met the maximum deduction for a given year are white.

    Not all working people are covered by or subject to Social Security Tax. Public School Teachers here in CT are not part of the system and pay into their own retirement scheme. My late mother collected her CT Teachers Retirement Board check for 31 years in retirement. Actyion by the Reagan regime made her ineligible to collect a spousal benefit on my father’s Social Security. Had she been a housewife she would have rec’d more than a quarter million dollars in Social Security Benefits in retirement.

    #1660272

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin,

    “Because you love CT’s crazy leftist ideas and don’t want to let anyone see the opposition?”

    So far, 2scents, anonymous jew, klugeryid, MDG, 1, Avi K, Takes3tomakemangos, lakewhut, and Non Political have all either supported the OP or posted rebuttals to things CTLAWYER has written, so I don’t see this supposed conspiracy to silence “the opposition” (and it’s strange that you view yourself as “the opposition”). Maybe tone down the personal attacks and your posts will go through unedited. On another thread, you declared me to be your enemy because I dared, heaven forbid, to espouse a view that was different from yours. Politics really seem to trigger you. Calm down. Republicans are not your team. Yidden are, like it or not. Even if some of them have political views that don’t align completely with yours.

    #1660160

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    They are not without basis and you know it. CTL immediately responded to this thread by attacking the OP’s intelligence and then calling groups of the country rednecks. He was not censored. We get censored to trying to fact-check his constant lies.

    Just fess up: you’re either a liberal who wants CTL to get the last/only word on everything regardless of whether he’s making real points or not, or, option B, he has something to do with sponsored content somewhere on YWN so he’ll get the same full protection package that Kedem wine gets.

    And, P.S., it’s not out of character either. You’ve probably let me say much worse things about Lubavitchers and MO’s without any backlash. It just seems worse to you this time because you’re the subject of the criticism apparently.

    edited

    #1660309

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The fact that you guys have turned it into an actual political discussion proves nothing. The fact remains, this started out as completely personal, non-logical arguments from CTL as he so often does. As usual, they let these through.

    Basically, in summary, he is allowed to assert that he has more value as a human being thanks to his wealth. We are not allowed to assert that this isn’t true.

    Notice how my posts are getting past moderation and then later being taken down by the 1 mod that has a vendetta against me because he’s in love with CTL? That seems fair to you?

    🤣🤣🤣🤣-29

    #1660318

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    On a separate note (and in a post separate from the other than will inevitably be taken down by “my enemy”), I always have and always will use this tone in political threads. I do not live under the disillusion that we all need to have “healthy discussion” with each other. You’re never going to change anyone’s mind doing that. It’s much more fun and even productive to just hurt the feeling of everyone you don’t like. Case and point, look at how easy it was for the OP to get CTL to show his true colors? The democrats always deny the allegation that they’re disconnected from the working-class world, and then one minor trolling post can get them to completely expose themselves. You guys, especially this mod, have to catch up to the world in which we’re living. It’s the Trump era. The phony “civil discussions” we’ve wasted our time with for years where we pretend to respect each other are obsolete.

    #1660341

    NCB, calm down. Nobody is your enemy. Your post containing personal insults was taken down because personal insults are not allowed, “even” in political discussions. Onoas Devorim is Onoas Devorim. It was let through by mistake.

    If that is not something you can abide by, you will have to find a different forum, but frankly, I do not understand why you think it is okay to begin with.

    #1660342

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I do not understand why you think it is okay to begin with.”

    Maybe because you set a precedent by letting certain people habitually get away with it?

    By the way, the enemy thing was a joke.

    #1660353

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin,

    “CTL immediately responded to this thread by attacking the OP’s intelligence and then calling groups of the country rednecks. He was not censored.”

    Maskim that CTLAWYER’s insult in his response to the OP and his later denigration of rural America were not acceptable things to say. Perhaps those posts should have been edited or deleted by the moderators. While they were not censored, they were censured by other posters 🙂

    #1660354

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Some of CTL’s greatest hits on this thread, if you’ll allow me to directly quote posts that were allowed through and are still up, even if it’s doesn’t serve your holy agenda:
    “Ask more stupid questions and prove what a fool you are”

    “If he doesn’t like the Dems in control in the northeast move to the flyover zone. I ‘m sure he’ll find the red necks very tolerant of his ilk.”

    And, of course, posts that mods decided has to get the last word:
    “I am far from elitist, my social circles cross economic and ethnic divides.”

    None of the stuff in my original response was anywhere near as bad as these quotes from him. I’d love to see these corrupt mods explain why those posts weren’t personal insults, but mine were.

    “If that is not something you can abide by, you willl have to find a different forum [sic]”
    I would love to. Care to point me to a competitor? I’ve been wanting out of this bougie yacht club for years.

    #1660368

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin,

    “It’s much more fun and even productive to just hurt the feeling of everyone you don’t like.”

    Sorry, onas devarim is forbidden by the Torah. We can’t pick and choose which mitzvos to follow because we think it’s fun or productive. I don’t care one whit what people may think is obsolete in whatever era. We are Jews, and as the people of Hashem we have a higher standard to uphold. Our Torah does not change with the times. And CTLAWYER doing it first does not make it ok.

    As for your point about political discourse, if you admittedly have never tried a more civil tone, then you cannot assert whether respectful dialog is effective or not. I have relatives on both extremes of the political spectrum, and have had very interesting conversations with them all.

    #1660380

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ““Ask more stupid questions and prove what a fool you are””

    Wait are we all just pretending that the OP’s question was a good or intelligent question?

    Am I the only one who thinks it was just meant to stir people up?
    And it succeeded and CTL got stirred up satisfying the goal of this thread

    #1660389

    “ I have relatives on both extremes of the political spectrum”

    Must have been vaccinated…

    #1660385

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I have relatives on both extremes of the political spectrum, and have had very interesting conversations with them all.”

    By interesting, you mean conversations where both sides end up feeling deep-seated anger, but cover it up in the name of civility as is the custom in the phony world of intellectualism.

    Anything you say is going to offend someone somewhere. The way you’re looking at this would mean everyone taking a vow of silence for all eternity. This idea that you can word arguments in this magical, intellectual way that won’t offend anyone and will be healthy for for the world is a total myth that only exists in the upper tier of American society. Most of us (deplorable rednecks who still know how to apply common sense) have gravitated towards the results-based approach like that of Trump (or Ocasio-Cortez on the inverse), and away from the pointless approach of Jeb Bush types that seems to be rooted in getting 90-year-olds to think, “hmm, he talks nice… What a nice young man he is…”

    You had to risk offending me just now by responding to my last comment, right? I could have gotten really upset at you for disagreeing and accusing me of a aveira, right? Does that mean you did an issur? No. There is not document or scripture that guarantees a human right to “not be offended.” That would cripple mankind.

    #1660437

    1
    Participant

    A local election in CT might not matter on a natiinal level, but the mayor and governor of NY are influential people.

    #1660443

    ZionGate
    Participant

    I very strongly disagree , and I mean strongly, with Neville ( and vice versa) on a certain subject, but what’s fair is fair. It doesn’t read to me that his comments on this thread were worse than others.
    I do recall CTL posting some time ago about being contacted by someone on YWN for advice on something pertaining to law, if I’m not mistaken…don’t want to stir a hornet ‘s nest, but Nev is getting hit too hard here.

    Totally irrelevant to YWN. That was me and all I needed to know was at what age child is considered an adult in Connecticut. Don’t get carried away or blow it out of proportion. Had I known I different poster was from Connecticut I might’ve asked them as well.

    #1660450

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin,

    “By interesting, you mean conversations where both sides end up feeling deep-seated anger, but cover it up in the name of civility as is the custom in the phony world of intellectualism.”

    Not every conversation is a debate. And the goal isn’t always to “win.”

    “The way you’re looking at this would mean everyone taking a vow of silence for all eternity.”

    You don’t seem to be finding me very silent 🙂

    “This idea that you can word arguments in this magical, intellectual way that won’t offend anyone and will be healthy for for the world is a total myth that only exists in the upper tier of American society.”

    There is way more to human interaction than the extremes of argument and silence. Not every conversation is persuasion-based, and even when attempting to persuade someone, argumentation is not necessarily needed or desirable.

    “Most of us (deplorable rednecks who still know how to apply common sense) have gravitated towards the results-based approach like that of Trump (or Ocasio-Cortez on the inverse)”

    My Southern bonafides may well exceed yours.

    “and away from the pointless approach of Jeb Bush types that seems to be rooted in getting 90-year-olds to think, “hmm, he talks nice… What a nice young man he is…”

    Jeb Bush got two terms as Florida governor, and his brother two terms as President. Not shabby for a pointless approach.

    “You had to risk offending me just now by responding to my last comment, right? I could have gotten really upset at you for disagreeing and accusing me of a aveira, right? Does that mean you did an issur? No. There is not document or scripture that guarantees a human right to “not be offended.” That would cripple mankind.”

    That’s a cop-out that would render the entire concept of onas devarim meaningless. We are not responsible for each and every feeling that someone may theoretically have in response to any statement, but it is forbidden by the Torah to say something intentionally designed or reasonably certain to hurt the feelings of another Jew.

    #1660456

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @NevilleChaimBerlin

    I have no commercial connection with YWN. In fact, I am an old school lawyer who does not advertise or have a website. I am winding down towards retirement and it children want to grow the firm it will be their decision.

    Yes I received an email from a Modrator a couple of years ago seeking assistance for someone in a CT hospital. It went to a blind e-mail address that does not have my real name attached to it and by the time I saw it the patient was no longer in CT

    #1660464

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Not every conversation is a debate. And the goal isn’t always to “win.””
    Notice how I never said the word debate or anything synonymous with it in the quote to which this was replying. I’m not sure how you read that as having anything to do with debates or winning.

    “Jeb Bush got two terms as Florida governor, and his brother two terms as President. Not shabby for a pointless approach.”
    Quite shabby given that they were horrible at what they did and continue to this day to prove that they don’t care (and never cared) about their constituents.

    “That’s a cop-out that would render the entire concept of onas devarim meaningless.”
    No more meaningless than applying it to anyone who personally offends you with a different opinion. Real men can take it and don’t beg for censorship whenever they can’t take back what they dish out. “Copping-out” would look more like throwing insults out and then hiding behind a wall of like-minded moderators. Am I the one doing that here?

    #1660486

    I have no interest in engaging in this silly roller coaster, or is it a merry-go-round not quite sure, but I will tell you that there are several mods, with different political views and I don’t think a single one of us has views similar in anyway to CTL. I can’t stop you from going on and on with your view of what is happening behind the scenes but I’m a freeing up this one issue from your list of complaints.

    #1660458

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I do recall CTL posting some time ago about being contacted by someone on YWN for advice on something pertaining to law”

    Bingo. There had to be something. I’m glad you’re able to see the bias without being able to see the original comment I made that sparked all of this, which was relatively tame. They’ve since gone back and unblocked a bunch of my more angry comments without unblocking the original, which is cute of them to use their powers in that way.

    I’m fine with private sites like YWN and twitter censoring as they see fit, as long as they say why. Eg. people might be censored here for expressing anti-Torah ideas because this is a Jewish site. Just like this rule is out in the open, they should have to disclose of their various other favoritism’s.

    #1660491

    1
    Participant

    In conclusion,

    Democrats are neo-Marxist SJW, and there’s nothing short of a Stalin that would change the minds of liberal Jews. This isn’t a new phenomenon; this goes back to the 1800s.

    #1660506

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    1.
    “and there’s nothing short of a Stalin that would change the minds of liberal Jews. ”

    i’m not so sure even that would change our minds,

    note how you couldn’t get a straight answer to your excellent OP “If Stalin promised yeshiva funding, would you still endorse him and vote for him in a primary? ”

    #1660513

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin,

    “Notice how I never said the word debate or anything synonymous with it in the quote to which this was replying. I’m not sure how you read that as having anything to do with debates or winning.”

    Quite obvious from the entirety of your post. Later in the post you wrote, “arguments in a magical, intellectual way” as an expansion of your point. And debate is certainly a synonym of argument. As far as winning being your perceived goal of conversation, that is evident in your references to discussions being pointless because nobody’s ever convinced. The vast majority of human conversation does not consist of one person trying to convince another of something.

    “No more meaningless than applying it to anyone who personally offends you with a different opinion. Real men can take it and don’t beg for censorship whenever they can’t take back what they dish out.”

    Not once have I been personally offended by anyone’s opinion in this thread. Nor have I begged for censorship. And I bet that had you rewritten your post minus the personal insults instead of complaining about censorship, you could have had your comebacks to CTLAWYER posted already.

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-33.
    • This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  Avram in MD.
    #1660742

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @ubiquitin

    I don’t know what could have been more straight than my only reply to the OP
    “There were no primaries in the USSR, there was one party.

    I would vote against any candidate for public office in a non-theocracy who promised yeshiva funding, or Catholic school funding or any other money for religious education at taxpayers expense, and YES, I oppose school vouchers.”

    The OP posed a physical impossibility To vote for a dead non-US citizen who was also a non-member of the Democrat Party in a primary. I pointed out the physical impossibility and clarified that I’d vote against politicians wanting to use public funds for religious education.

    #1660767

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Totally irrelevant to YWN.”
    Hmm… I see no reason why there would be ulterior motive to claim that…

    “I don’t think a single one of us has views similar in anyway to CTL.”
    Hmm… I see no reason why there would be ulterior motive to claim that…

    #1660773

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “And I bet that had you rewritten your post minus the personal insults instead of complaining about censorship, you could have had your comebacks to CTLAWYER posted already.”

    You’re assuming the post was worse than it was. It was abjectly less insulting than nearly everything CTL has written. The mods are trying to lead you to believe it was worse than it was. CTL had claimed that if someone had read his posts from years of being a CR user, they would see how great and accepting he is of other socio-economic classes. Apparently, any dispute of this assertion is a “personal attack.” Theoretically, he worded an argument in such a way that it didn’t break forum rules, but any counterargument would. That would be genius, but I think it’s much more likely that the mods are just biased and bad at their jobs.

    Let me try it: I know more about all of these things you guys are talking about on this thread. If you go back and read years of my posts, you would all see how much smarter I am than all of you. (Now, let’s see if they block anyone who tries to dispute me).

    #1660780

    1
    Participant

    For someone who has 1 response, you keep on repeating the same double talk.

    #1660812

    So the site was down for about 10 minutes shortly after Neville’s upset which makes it pretty obvious that he had it done out of vengence. I still cant figure out how you pulled it off, and i think it was a bit of an overreaction, but its the only possible explanation for the so called “glitch”. And no doubt he’s going to deny it…

    #1660823

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    CTLAWYER,

    “The OP posed a physical impossibility To vote for a dead non-US citizen who was also a non-member of the Democrat Party in a primary.”

    1. While we’re picking nits, it’s the Democratic Party, not Democrat. The latter is typically used as an epithet.
    2. I also believe the OP was a troll post, but surely you understand that it was a hypothetical, and thus being literally possible was not really relevant? If you want, interpret the question as, “if a person like Stalin was running in a primary…”

    #1660825

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin,

    “CTL had claimed that if someone had read his posts from years of being a CR user, they would see how great and accepting he is of other socio-economic classes.”

    I reread his post, and can see how his claims to be “middle class” seem out of touch with what middle class actually means in light of his frequent and casual references to his wealth. And that welcoming increased taxes ignores the fact that such policies can harm others, though, to be fair, I’m guessing he doesn’t favor raising taxes on people with smaller incomes. MDG hit back on those points, but I don’t really see how they insult other people. Can you clarify?

    #1660844

    klugeryid
    Participant

    To ctl and ubiq,
    I can’t believe I need to spell this out.
    The op was asking the following question.
    ”is it possible for the democrats to run a person that is so bad that his evilness would supersede the monetary gain to your chosen institution, or would the democrat Jewish voter vote for anyone , no matter how evil, provided they promised cash.? ”
    In order to make the question easier to understand and a bit shorter, he used a name, Stalin, that is the prototype of complete evil and antisemitism.
    He didn’t ask, if you lived in Stalinist Russia would you vote for Stalin.
    He didn’t ask, would you, in CT, vote for dead Stalin in Russia?.
    Please stop telling us about voting issues in Russia or the fact that Stalin is dead.
    Learn to understand what someone wrote.
    In this case it is so simple.

    #1660854

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ” it pretty obvious that he had it done out of vengence.”
    Dang right! And, there’ll be a lot more where that came from if you don’t give in to all of my demands!

    “I still cant figure out how you pulled it off”
    A simple distributed denial of service attack. You really should look into getting better protection.

    #1660855

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Lol Kluger yid

    An antisemitic candidate that will support yeshivas
    sure thanks for taking the time to spell it out

    I understand perfectly well what he wrote and have absolutely no question on it. I was surprised at posters who took the notion of a stalin-like character who supports yeshivas on the side, seriously.

    You either don’t know much about Stalin, don’t know what a yeshiva is, or can’t recognize a troll post

    “In this case it is so simple.”
    Agreed 100%

    #1660887

    klugeryid
    Participant

    I went to a litvish yeshiva
    So I know who Stalin was and I know what a yeshiva is.
    As to trolling, who cares. Let him troll. It’s just a way of starting a conversation. If the answer is no. Say no and done. If the answer is yes maybe it’s time for some self checking
    Who cares if he is trolling

    #1660936

    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL,
    1. Why shouldn’t parents have realistic choices? Not everybody is a rich hot shot lawyer.
    2. Actually it is possible to vote for Stalin. One can cast a write-in vote. There was once even an election where a candidate who had died after it was too late to remove his name from the ballot won. In any case, don’t be disingenuous.

    #1660920

    Participant
    Participant

    @ctlawyer (old post)
    “If he doesn’t like the Dems in control in the northeast move to the flyover zone. I ‘m sure he’ll find the red necks very tolerant of his ilk.”
    Seriously? Someone who doesn’t like the Dems’ control may not ask questions? Their only option is to move?

    #1660949

    1
    Participant

    Participant, that sounds like a communist. So, yes?

    #1660953

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    “Who cares if he is trolling”

    not me, thats for sure. I enjoy a good troll post almost as much as I enjoy satire (sometimes its hard to tell which is which. Was this OP a troll post or satirically making fun of people who make those kind of arguments I assume the former but I’m not 100% sure)
    Its funny I enjoy his posts. This one I chose to ignore. the Last one “voting democrat” was funnier to me so I engaged.

    I’m just confused by people who don’t recognize trolling , and give meaning that clearly wasnt there, to a nonsensical post. Again I don’t care about that either, I just find it amusing .

    for example when someone says “If the answer is yes ” to a question about “Stalin supporting yeshivos” It is genuinely funny to me. If someone says” I like circles with corners”, then by definition he either doesn’t know what a circle is or doesnt know what a corner is. similarly if someone ponders the possibility of Stalin supporting yeshivos.

    #1660959

    klugeryid
    Participant

    For the record, throughout the worst of the communist regime, the main shul in Moscow enjoyed the protection of the government.
    So yes it’s possible for Stalin to support yeshivas.

    Anyway had Stalin been alive and a us citizen and denizen I would assign ”trolling ”
    However because of the lack of all three, I think I’m this case it’s more probable if was actually using it as an extreme. And not as a straight troll.

    #1660965

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think I’m this case it’s more probable if was actually using it as an extreme. And not as a straight troll.

    I agree. It’s an exaggeration to make a point.

    #1660990

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    So the site was down for about 10 minutes shortly after Neville’s upset which makes it pretty obvious that he had it done out of vengence. I still cant figure out how you pulled it off, and i think it was a bit of an overreaction, but its the only possible explanation for the so called “glitch”. And no doubt he’s going to deny it…

    Oh, that was why? I was wondering why

    #1660994

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Seriously? Someone who doesn’t like the Dems’ control may not ask questions? Their only option is to move?

    Participant

    That what it sounds like when the “celebrities” talked about moving to Canada after Trump won (which sadly didn’t happen)

    Or moving to North Korea, Iran, etc to see what a real dictator is

    #1661013

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I agree. It’s an exaggeration to make a point.”

    On the surface it seems so, but why bring the Yeshiva funding into as if to suggest that people vote Democrat in order to get Yeshiva funding when it’s the exact opposite?

    It seems like the OP was criticizing both: a) people who indiscriminately vote democrat, and b) people who vote based only of the issue of Yeshiva funding. Those are not the same group. If this confusion was intentional, then I think it would fall under the definition of “trolling.”

    #1661035

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    b) people who vote based only of the issue of Yeshiva funding.

    I thought the point was selling out values for a tangible benefit, yeshiva funding being an example.

    #1661062

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Coffee Addict, Canada protects its southern border.

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