December 10, 2017 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1423862
Speaking of emuna, even when you can’t answer a question on Yiddishkeit satisfactorily, someone asked me a question.Maybe one of you can enlighten me with an answer:
This man has suffered a hard situation which caused him to leave Yiddishkeit because he couldn’t answer this dilemma :
Hashem can do anything, and could have created the world however He wanted. He chose to create it in a way that people suffer.
So in this mans mind, that leaves him two options : Hashem is bad or cruel cvs. Or there is no G-d. He goes with the latter.
My answer is really emuna based.
Anyone have a good intellectual answer, not emuna based?December 10, 2017 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1423895
Hashem is doing this because he loves you and wants only food for you even though it may seem not good.December 10, 2017 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1423899
Alas, the two keys are too close together for their own good.December 10, 2017 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1423902
Good*December 10, 2017 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1423908
Hashem is not cruel.
People suffer to cleanse them of their sins. They have sinned because they broke Hashem’s laws which Hashem put out in the beginning.
If there is no suffering to fix one’s sins the world would have been over very quickly, so Hashem is patient.
The covenant with Noah for gentiles and the B’ris Olam with Israel are covenants that Hashem will not break.
Hashem exists, as matter cannot create itself. A prime mover is needed-Hashem is the One Who proclaimed Himself Creator of the whole universe – “In the beginning…” and said to follow no “other”.December 10, 2017 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #1423916
I think the Chofetz Chaim gives a moshol, which I don’t have time to write out now, but the short answer is: nahama d’kisufa.December 10, 2017 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1423917
The bottom line, though, is that it’s not really an intellectual question, it’s an emotional one. You mentioned that this person had a great deal of suffering…December 11, 2017 12:11 am at 12:11 am #1424003
We are not the ones to judge. Iyov said basically the same thing ארץ נתנה ביד… HaShem did not hold him accountable, (only בלא דעת). If one truly wants to be mekarev such a person, it must be with much Secel and patience. But for a Jewish Neshamah, there is ALWAYS hope. It can always me rekindled, anytime, sometimes without warning, at a seemingly insignificant occurrence, thought, circumstance.December 11, 2017 12:12 am at 12:12 am #1424005
“Question I don’t know the answer to”
Is this title predicated on the assumption that it is rare for there to be a question you don’t know the answer to? (:December 11, 2017 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1424029
Maybe you don’t really need to understand Hashem? As someone once said “I’m not interested in a G-d I can understand…”December 11, 2017 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1424046
The question is an expression of one of the most
well-known problems in religious philosophy.December 11, 2017 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1424047
People suffer to cleanse them of their sins. They have sinned because
they broke Hashem’s laws which Hashem put out in the beginning.
Children suffer, too. (So you’ll answer that they
must be a gilgul, but how do you know that?)
And we certainly see people who appear to us to have sinned
more seemingly suffering less than people who appear to have
sinned less do. It’s a hard answer for some people to accept.December 11, 2017 7:42 am at 7:42 am #1424101
(Failure to properly close markup strikes me again – only
the first, quoted, paragraph was meant to be italicized.)December 11, 2017 7:43 am at 7:43 am #1424102
Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲 Yes gilgul. Bamidbar 14:18 ” but visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and fourth generations “.
Also, everything is hidden, so Hashem alone judges the measure of sin and the measure of punishment, whether in this life or the next life.December 11, 2017 10:11 am at 10:11 am #1424246
Thanks for the responses.
@770chavad @readynow those are great answers to the question why do people suffer. But this isn’t his question. His question was that Hashem created this system. He couldve created it differently.
And we already discussed that the pain comes in a a result of sinning. But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way. So he’s wondering why He chose such a system?
@daasyochid @littlefroggie what you say is true. But it’s so hard to see someone waste his life because he has a question. I wish I could answer him.
I have pondered this question myself and have an answer, but like I said it’s more emuna based so I don’t think it’ll work for him.
@joseph I guess sort of lol. When I was in high school, whenever I thought of a question, I would not rest tool I got a satisfactory answer. When I left high school I was surprised to see most of the questions that come my way are ones I had myself or never had to begin with because the basis of the difficulty that was the basis for it, was clear to me. So it is funnily enough, a bit rare to find myself at a loss for words to answer this fellow in a way he can accept.December 11, 2017 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1424277
Avram in MDParticipant
But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way.
Woah wait, stop the wagon. I cannot for one second believe that Hashem commanded Adam and Chava to not eat from the etz pri hadaas while secretly wanting them to, so that their sin somehow caused the world to function in the way He intended to. That is completely contrary to the plain meaning of the pesukim, and it implies, CV”S, that Hashem is deceptive. Yet, as we say every day at the end of Shema: Hashem Elokeichem Emes. It is clear that Hashem did not want Adam and Chava to eat from the tree, and that their doing so resulted in extremely negative consequences for the world, and required adjustments to Hashem’s plans for humanity, most notably the exile from Gan Eden.
Convenient answers to your question are that man, not G-d, causes suffering due to sinning. And that suffering is a kapara. And that suffering yields opportunities for a man to elevate himself, such as the testing of the Avos. These answers are all true, but probably feel distant and cold to someone who, G-d forbid, has a child who is suffering. Nobody knows the answer to your question, because we cannot understand even the tiniest fraction of Hashem’s perspective. All I know is we do not see the whole picture, and Hashem loves us more than we can know. And it’s ok to cry.December 11, 2017 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1424280
If we believe that we can understand Hashems ways, that would mean we are limiting Hashem to only what our minds can grasp, when in reality its way greater than we perceive.
What might seem like a tragedy might turn out to be for our benefit.December 11, 2017 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1424296
Quoting the Chafetz Chayim: To those who believe there are no questions; to those who don’t there are no answers.December 11, 2017 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1424317
@avrammd no Cvs, like you said Hashem is not deceptive. There really was a plan a. However what I said still stands. Sounds like you never heard of the concept before. So I guess it could be another discussion if you want. I may need hypo on up the sources though, so is this only foreign to avrammd? Abs others can fill in?December 11, 2017 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1424478
Avram in MDParticipant
There really was a plan a. However what I said still stands.
You said that the etz pri hadaas was essentially a set-up. By this do you mean that, despite the fact that Hashem told Adam to not eat from the tree, He meant for them to? Sorry, I have a hard time believing that our Creator, who commanded us not to put a stumbling block before the blind, and who said through His prophet, “choose life!” would desire a sin and the death it brought.
Sounds like you never heard of the concept before.
I have, but never from an Orthodox Jew.
So I guess it could be another discussion if you want. I may need hypo on up the sources though, so is this only foreign to avrammd? Abs others can fill in?
Go right ahead.December 11, 2017 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1424512
I’ve heard of a similar concept regarding the Eigel.December 11, 2017 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1424511
Bamidbar 14:18 ”but visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and fourth generations.“
That posuk refers to when those descendants repeat their forebears’ sins.
Quoting the Chafetz Chayim: To those who believe there are no questions;
to those who don’t there are no answers.
Great. All you have to do now is make him a believer.December 11, 2017 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1424529
Its the essence of emunah on any issue….we only know that we will never know the “why” of what the Ebeshter does or chooses not to do. We can tie ourselves in knots and engage in all sorts of speculation as often happens here among the resident neviim here on YWN who claim an ability to explain to explain every tragedy and link it to tzinius, toevah marriage, taharas hamishpacha or whatever. Or else, we simply yield to the reality that hashem does what he does and we go on with our lives expecting the good the ultimately prevail for ourselves and klal yisroel.December 11, 2017 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1424548
“But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way. So he’s wondering why He chose such a system?”
What do you mean “knows”? Huh how would he know that as a “fact”? Why in the world would anyone teach him that as the simple way to understand that. It sure is not – even the Kabalistic world like the Ramchal in Derech Hashem does not say that. He explains that as something that was derived and happened as a result as a human flaw, and Hashem waited until Avrhom Avinu that the human race should correct it…
Even the Chabd Seforim do not say so, at least the Alte Rebbe in Torah Ohr, he says the following in Parshas Breshis he explains the issue how the “Birur Ras” would have been without the Chet:
“. וע”ד שהיה בזמן שבהמ”ק היה קיים שהרי ארז”ל לא גלו ישראל אלא כדי שיתוספו עליהם גרים דהיינו להעלות נצוצות ומה היה נעשה אם לא חטאו ולא היו גולים. אלא ע”כ צ”ל שאז היו נכללים הנצוצות ממילא כנר בפני האבוקה כמו נעמה העמונית וכן כל העמים באו לשמוע חכמת שלמה וכמ”ש במלכת שבא כו’. והיינו לפי שאז היה אבוקה גדולה עד”מ ע”כ ממילא מתכללים בה הנצוצות ואם היה נמשך בהמ”ק כן יותר היו כולם מתבררים עד”ז וכמ”ש לע”ל (צפניה ג’) אז אהפוך אל עמים שפה ברורה כו’. והלכו גוים לאורך כו’. וכך היה ענין האדם כשלא היה חוטא שהיה כולו קדוש כי גם גופו נלקח ממקום המזבח וממנו נעשו רמ”ח אבריו בלול בשמן כו’ והיה עומד בג”ע ושם היה מוסיף אורות וממילא היו הקליפות כלים ע”י שהיו הנצוצי קדושה כלים מהם אבל הדבר היה שלא ע”י מלחמה כו’. משא”כ אחר שחטא אזי צ”ל הבירורים ע”י עבודה ומלחמה שעת צלותא שעת קרבא כנ”ל וצריך לירד אל מקום הקליפות ושם יבררם וזהו את האדמה אשר לקח משם.
The above indicates that the world was original meant to be without the Chet of the Etz haDaas…
In any case, can you please post where the source is?December 11, 2017 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #1424593
Ramdom 3X, Hashem gave free will, so nothing is a “set-up”, even for Adam and Eve.
There is freewill, BUT all is foreseen in Hashem’s eyes. –Pirke Avos
Hashem is perfectly just, so if children suffer is precisely because of gilgul (if they are tiny children or adult children) OR the fact that they, the children, as adults, are sinners, unbeknownst to all onlookers. An adult can still be a child if his parents are still alive, he is called their child.
In fact “there is no living so righteous that he does not sin” (TORAH) AND we do not know the “value” of one mitzvah (and its transgression” against the “value” of any other mitzvah and its transgression.(Pirke Avos)December 12, 2017 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1424822
Wow gaon thanks for that! I admit I don’t know the source offhand, I definitely didn’t tell him that, it wouldn’t have helped anyway, he told me he learned that. And as I have the concept before, and also with regards to chet haegel, that it was kind of a set up so bnei Yisrael could attain the level of Baalei teshuva which is higher than tzaddikim, I wasn’t going to tell him it’s not true. He learned it himself, and I’ve heard it to. I would love to see the source inside (could be I originally saw it in a maamar but it’s been some time.) I’ll ask around and try to get back. Shame sechel hayashar isn’t here to help. If anyone else knows it please fill us inDecember 12, 2017 11:32 am at 11:32 am #1424936
“I wasn’t going to tell him it’s not true. He learned it himself, and I’ve heard it to. I would love to see the source inside ”
Whether there is a source or not is not the issue – we are not responsible for every theory and half-baked drasha out there which interferes with any Emunah or the excepted pshat.
I will quote what the Ramban once said in his famous debate in Spain, in regards to Agadaic Midrashim, the Apostate kept on bringing up that Moshiach “was already born on T”B”, and thus already arrived etc. on that the Ramban replied as the following:
שמעו עמים כולם. פראי פול שאלני אם כבר בא המשיח שדברו בו הנביאים, ואמרתי שלא בא. והביא ספר אגדה שאמר בו כי ביום שחרב בית המקדש בו ביום נולד. ואמרתי אני שאיני מאמין בזה.
דעו כי אנחנו יש לנו שלושה מינין של ספרים,
האחד הוא הבב”ליה, וכולנו מאמינים בו אמונה שלמה.
והשני הוא נקרא תלמוד, והוא פירוש למצוות התורה, כי בתורה יש תרי”ג מצוות ואין בה אחת שלא נתפרשה בתלמוד, ואנחנו מאמינים בו בפירוש המצות.
עוד יש לנו ספר שלישי הנקרא מדרש, רוצה לומר שרמ”וניש. כמו שאם יעמוד ההגמון ויעשה שרמון (אחד), ואחד מן השומעים היה טוב בעיניו וכתבו. וזה הספר מי שיאמין בו טוב, ומי שלא יאמין בו לא יזיק.
– ויכוח הרמב”ן –
It goes without saying, that we absolutely do not have to believe anything you just randomly hear…December 12, 2017 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1425099
Here the Ramchal explains clearly that even after the Chet – Hashem gave the world a chance to once again go back and return to its former status:
אדם הראשון קודם חטאו היה במצב עליון מאד ממה שהוא האדם עתה וכבר ביארנו ענין זה (בחלק א’ פרק ג’). ומדריגת האנושיות לפי המצב ההוא היתה מדריגה נכבדת מאד ראויה למעלה רמה נצחיית כמו”ש. ואלו לא היה חוטא היה משתלם ומתעלה עוד עילוי על עילוי. והנה באותו המצב הטוב היה לו להוליד תולדות מספר משוער מחכמתו ית’ על פי אמתת מה שראוי לשלימות הנהנים בטובו ית’ והיו כלם נהנים עמו בטוב ההוא. ואמנם התולדות האלה שהיה ראוי שיוליד נגזרו ושוערו מלפניו ית’ משוערים בהדרגות מיוחדות פירוש שיהיה בהם ראשיים ונטפלים שרשים וענפים נמשכים זה אחר זה בסדר מיוחד כאילנות וענפיהם ומספר האילנות ומספר הענפים הכל משוער בתכלית הדקדוק.
והנה בחטאו ירד מאד ממדריגתו ונכלל מן החשך והעכירות שיעור גדול וכמש”ל. וכלל המין האנושי ירד ממדריגתו ועמד במדרגה שפלה מאד בלתי ראויה למעלה הרמה הנצחיית שהתעתד לה בראשונה ולא נשאר מזומן ומוכן אלא למדריגה פחותה ממנה פחיתות רב ובבחינה זאת הוליד תולדות בעולם כלם במדרגה השפלה הזאת שזכרנו.
ואמנם אעפ”כ לא חדל מהמצא בכלל מדריגת המין האנושי מצד שרשו האמיתי בחינה עליונה מן הבחינה שהיה המין הזה אז בזמן קלקולו. ולא נדחה אדה”ר לגמרי שלא יוכל לשוב אל המדריגה העליונה אבל נמצא בפועל במדריגה השפלה ובבחינה כחניות אל המדריגה העליונה.
והנה נתן האדון ב”ה לפני התולדות ההם שנמצאו באותו הזמן את הבחירה שיתחזקו וישתדלו להתעלות מן המדריגה השפלה ולשים עצמם במדריגה העליונה. והניח להם זמן לדבר כמו ששיערה החכמה העליונה היותו נאות להשתדלות הזה ועל דרך מה שמנחת עתה לנו לשנהיה משיגים השלימות והמדריגה בקיבוץ בני העוה”ב כמש”ל.
– דרך ה’ חלק שני ד –
Later he explains how Hashem opted to correct the Chet through Avrohom and Klal Yisrael…
All this indicates not like the pshat above, the Chet was not intended/setup at all in any way.
I highly suggest you (and him/her) should learn though the Sefer Derech Hashem it is basic Emunah that every Jew should know, and I’m sure it will answer many of his issues.
It is available with translations and on-line as well.
Just google “דרך ה”December 12, 2017 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1425782
The moshol I referred to above is as follows: (apologies for any embellishment or inaccuracy)
A man with no marketable skills begs a distant relative, a wealthy owner of many factories and businesses, for a job.
He hires him to work in one of his factories, as a kindness.
Years later, the owner, who doesn’t even remember this man, decides to visit this factory.
He calls a meeting for all employees, and asks each what his job is.
One replies that he works on the product design, another that he does maintenance of the facility, another that he does inventory, etc.
Finally, it’s his relative’s turn. The poor fellow, clearly embarrassed, sheepishly looks down and mutters, “every day I come to the factory and collect my wages”.
That’s called “nahama d’kisufa” – bread of shame.
As I recall, the Chofetz Chaim used this moshol to explain why, since Hashem created us for our own benefit, ultimately, as the Mesilas Yesharim says, “l’hisaneg al Hashem v’leihanos miziv sh’chinoso” – for the ultimate reward which awaits us in the World to Come – why couldn’t He have simply put us all in Gan Eden without all of the mitzvos (positive and negative), which are tremendous challenges?
He answers with the above moshol, and I believe it also answers why we need punishment and suffering.
Chabadshluchah, the fellow you refer to may counter that it still doesn’t explain why Hashem had to create such a system, but I think the answer to that is that a system without reward and punishment, and the benefits of earning the reward by working for it (and the possibility of punishment and suffering for sinning) is inherently not a just system.
Yes, Hashem has the ability to do anything, but that doesn’t mean it is His will to do something which is not inherently just and correct.
So, in order to create a just world with the potential for us to obtain the utmost reward and pleasure, He created a system with reward and punishment, which sometimes takes the form of suffering.
May Hashem help this poor fellow to see the truth.December 12, 2017 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1425792
Shlucha, I think you (or your friend) have it confused between what Adam thought Hashem wanted and what Hashem actually wanted.
Hashem created the world to do good, to give all HIs good to his creations. He did not create it so that people should suffer. But to avoid nehama d’chisufa, good that one does not earn and therefore becomes shameful, He set up the mitzvos so that we can earn that good. If one does not do the mitzvos, one does not get the good.
Adam had one mitzva. Adam believed that Hashem actually wanted him to eat from the Etz Hadaas, so that he could achieve an even higher spiritual level, by showing he was willing to sacrifice his life (this idea can be found in the Meshech Chochma) or by doing teshuva. Meaning, Adam thought it was a set-up, so to speak. But that is not what Hashem wanted, and terrible consequences and suffering resulted from his misunderstanding of Hashem’s mitzva. And to this very day we have to be metakein this chet. The suffering that we have today is a consequence of man’s actions, and rationalizations, and not Hashem’s purpose for the world.
Maybe in this lies the answer- as people, we try to rationalize and try to understand what Hashem wants and we fool ourselves to think we understand it all. We need to admit that we are mere mortals, fallible who cannot possibly comprehend Hashem’s plans, and we should not try to apply our logic to Hashem’s Logic, but live the maxim of “tamim tehiyu im Hashem Elokecha” without cheshbonos. Yes, it does boil down to emuna, I can’t see how you can separate it from the answer.December 12, 2017 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1425828
This should read: “Question to which I do not know the answer” – otherwise “to” is a dangling modifier and we frown upon those.December 12, 2017 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1425834
or to rephrase what you said
If you only worship a G-d you can understand that really you are just worshiping yourselfDecember 12, 2017 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1425836
There is a machlokes in the gemorrah between Bais Shamai and Bais Hillel
about whether or not it is in man’s benefit to have been born. The gemarrah paskens that bais shamai is correct “tov shelo nivra adam”, it would have been better to not have been born. The way I have always understood this is that if we didn’t exist, we couldn’t have been missing out on the reward. so we don’t want the reward or punishment. simple in-existence would have been perfect.
Which in theory , is an argument I plan on using achar meah v’esrim shana, and it is a philosophical question I have never seen answered well.
That said the gemarrah ends off, but now that we are here, we need to do the work we are here for.
In my experience, people who go off the derech always have a reason, and you can’t argue with that reason.
Someone in my neighborhood is currently leaving his family and kids for a secular lifestyle. His reasons, G-d created ridiculous halachas for women. Of course, his wife is very dedicated to the frum lifestyle. When I point out the hypocrisy that he is using his wife as an excuse (and she doesn’t feel “oppressed”) it doesn’t make a dent.
Hashem leads a person in the derech that he wants to goDecember 12, 2017 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1425865
The gemarrah paskens that bais shamai is correct “tov shelo nivra adam”
The Gemara actually says “noach lo l’adam shelo nivra”, and misquoting it is a grievous error.
It may indeed not be comfortable (noach) to have been created, and undergo the challenges we do, but ultimately, it is certainly for our best, and chas v’chalilah to say otherwise. Vayar Elokim ki tov.December 12, 2017 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1426160
Wow it’s fun to be part of a thread where we can all agree at least respectfully hear and learn from each other. Some pointers :
@gaon thanks allot. I’m sure that is another way of understanding it, and there are shiviim panim laTorah. However that being said, I can’t say to the fellow that what he said is incorrect because I remember learning it myself and is definitely a part of Torah just another facet. Assuming based on kabbola. Haven’t seen it in some time though so can’t remember it clearly enough to answer all questions on it. I think the posuk Norah alila al bnei Adam tied in. This means Hashem makes awesome libels / set ups against man. I note that isn’t helpful without the full picture. I’ll try to look it up.
@dy maybe he’ll go for it and regardless its a great mashal thanks!!
Only problem is that Hashem isn’t limited – He can create a satisfying and just system of He wanted.
So ultimately it does boil down to emuna- at least to new I haven’t found a purely rational answer yet as wtp said as well
And obviously it’s impossible to fully understand Hashem, but up to the point of Atzilus at least, there’s allot He’s given us to be able to understand so we can learn and grow abs follow in His Ways.December 12, 2017 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1426204
Only problem is that Hashem isn’t limited – He can create a satisfying and just system of He wanted.
Not if “just” doesn’t fit with your definition of “satisfying”…
You know the famous question if Hashem can create a stone so heavy that He can’t lift it? How would you answer it?
I would answer that He can’t, but that isn’t a contradiction to the idea that He is “kol yochol” (unlimited), because the fact the He “can’t” do something which is inherently self contradictory isn’t a limitation in Him, it’s the nature of the paradox you are asking about.
Similarly, if your definition of “satisfying” doesn’t fit in with His (perfect) concept of justice, that’s not a limitation in Him ch”v, it’s a flaw in you.December 12, 2017 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1426262
“The Gemara actually says “noach lo l’adam shelo nivra”, and misquoting it is a grievous error.”
Well said, Daas!
actually I found someone quoting the Sefer haBris that says pshat in the above machlokes as the following:
ספר הברית (ח”ב מאמר י”ב
אף גם אם יצא הדבר מפי חכמים רבים מנויה וגמורה בסוד חכמי תורה כבית שמאי עם בית הלל אל תאמין כי הדבר כפשוטו וכמשמעו, כגון מה שאמרו (בפרק קמא דעירובין) נוח לו לאדם שלא נברא יותר משנברא וזה הדבר מנגד וסותר לאשר מפורסם באומתנו מעולם כי טוב ה’ ומקבילת להמסורת בידינו וקבל היהודים מראש אמנה כי טוב ה’ לכל וחסיד בכל מעשיו, ואם נוכל לומר על הנברא כי לא טוב איך נוכל לומר על הבורא כי טוב, ובכן ידענו בטח שאין הדבר כן והאמת בהפך כי נוח לו לאדם שנברא יותר משלא נברא למען יעבוד את ה’ וכל אשר עשה אלהים הוא טוב ולא רע, ודבריהם ז”ל צריך פירוש כפירוש התוספות (שם) שזה אין הכוונה בו אלא לסתם בני אדם אבל הצדיק אשרי לו ואשרי לדורו, גם פירושים אחרים יש בזה גם העלם דבר בחכמה ובתבונה גם סוד מסוד אלוה,
רק לא לפרש על פי פשוטו וחלילה לך לחשוב כי החכמים וצדיקים כבית שמאי ובית הלל יסכימו על דבר שהוא נגד כבוד הבורא ואת פועל ה’ לא יביטו שהוא לטובה להנפעל ומעשה ידיו לא ראו שהוא יפה להנעשה, וכי הם ז”ל לא ידעו כי הוא מהולל בתשבחות ונהדר בכבוד על המרכבה אם נאמר כי את כל מעשה ה’ הוא לטובה לכל אשר עשה ולכל מה שברא:
אמנם אף הם ז”ל ידעו כי אך טוב לגבר כי ישא עול מלכות שמים ויעבוד את אלהים בארץ כי אין מקום בכל העולמות העליונים לעבוד את ה’ ולקיים מצותיו ותורותיו כי אם בעולם הזה, וכל הנשמות אשר מבראשית בעולמות העליונים אף כי מתענגים בנועם ה’ וזיו השכינה בעדן העליון בכל זאת מתפללים תמיד ומתחננים לפני כסא הכבוד שיתן להם רשות לירד מטה לארץ למען יוכלו עבוד את ה’ ולקיים מצותיו, ואם לא היה הדבר הזה נוח לו לאדם לא היה מתפלל אברהם יצחק ויעקב והאמהות על בנים וכן כל אדם מישראל, ואם לא היה התולדה טוב ויפה לו לאדם לא היה הקב”ה מצוה בתורתו מצות פרו ורבו (בראשית ב’). אפס כל הדברים האלה וכאלה אמת מצד ואינו אמת מצד.
עד כאן דבריו
In any case, he says that no way is it to be taken as literal.
Also see Marsha at the end of Mesechet Makos.December 12, 2017 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1426231
I’m not sure how your definition of noach fits the Gemara. But even so it doesn’t change the philosophical question.
Let me ratchet it up a little. If we didn’t exist there would be no discomfort, no pain , no trials etc. both physical and spiritual . Our existence is supposedly because Hashem has a need to give. So Hashem s need to give creates the system . The system has pain and consequences involved. We didn’t ask to be created and part of the system. Had we not been created the loss of reward would not be felt. Therefore how can our creation be part of a selfless need to give? Since ultimately many will suffer?December 13, 2017 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1426288
Mentch1, you seem to ch”v be accepting option #1…
Please read GAON’s quote. The gemara according to your misquote is simply untenable. Read it correctly and your questions become non existent. It’s not my definition, it’s what the word means.December 13, 2017 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1426332
DY raised an interesting point. How would this man in the OP have preferred the world to be created? What does it mean a world without suffering? Who defines what is suffering? Isn’t that subjective? To give a simple example- a woman suffers during childbirth (actually this is a consequence of Chava’s sin, world was not meant to be this way). Medical data says that labor and the accompanying hormones are good for the baby. So one person’s suffering is another’s good. Or perhaps he means a world where he does not suffer?
No death? well, the world was created without death, but Adam messed that one up.
No illness prior to death? Or old age? That too was part of the original nature of the world, but the avos requested that there should be warning before one dies, hence old age and illness.
No premature death/painful death/murder? Doesn’t that have to do with our actions?
Much of the suffering we go through is because of other people’s actions. That is a consequence of the fact that people have bechira, and Hashem allows them to act through that bechira. So perhaps the man’s problem is why there is bechira to do bad, but that is a different discussion.
His arguments are flawed. Suffering does not mean Hashem is cruel, Chas V’shalom, or that the world was supposed to have been created that way. so his conclusion that it must mean there is no G-d, chas v’shalom, is wrong. Methinks he left not for an intellectual reason, but out of emotional pain, and intellectual answers will not make him change his mind.December 13, 2017 10:11 am at 10:11 am #1426384
@mentch1 the world wasnt create in order for Hashem to give – if He had to give and needed to create us in order to give, than He wouldn’t be perfect cvs.
Rather, once He wanted to create, since He is Tov, and teva hatov lheitiv, Ain ra yored min hashomayim, only good. Even harsh punishments are good – just we prefer to see the good ourselves.That’s the difference between chessed and gevura.
As far as how is it worth it for us? Sometimes, now, we don’t appreciate the suffering, hence noach lo ladam.. But when moshiach comes, we will really see the full purpose of the distressing and what it accomplished, and will tell Hashem oidcha ki anafta bi.December 13, 2017 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1426527
“Hashem has a need to give”
Chas Ml’hazkir – the very word and concept of “need” (as explained in all sforim) pertains only for mortals…December 13, 2017 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1427251
ספר הברית on how it’s impossible to understand the גמרא of נוח לו לאדם the way some here have mentioned:December 17, 2017 9:54 am at 9:54 am #1428322
I’ve got my rational answer now, thanks for all your help and input :
Of course Hashem could have made an alternate system. But that alternate system would be completely different from without the concept of pain / suffering. It wouldn’t include Allot of things that we like that go with this system such as bad actions /people getting punished, much of kindness, work ethic / lfum tzaara agra. In fact, being that we were created in this system, we couldn’t imagine life outside it!
So instead of wishing for something you don’t even know What you’re wishing for,enjoy all there is from this system, and there is much to enjoy.
As far as the hard times which aren’t fun, when we know the full picture we will appreciate that too.
Hard times push people to look deep inside and bring out their greatest strengths and previously untapped potential. There is much resultant good when dealt with correctly.
In fact, when moshiach comes, we are promised that we will see the full picture and then thank Hashem for all the hard times.
Until then, let’s not waste life because we have a question. We were given a precious little window of time to specs here and make a difference – so let’s be sure to use it!
Lchaim! A freilichen Chanukah!December 17, 2017 9:54 am at 9:54 am #1428325
I came across the following יערות דבש לרבי ר’ יהונתן אייבישיץ
At the end of Drush טז:
ולכן עלינו להכין עצמינו בתשובה ותפלה כי כל מה דעביד ה’ לטב עביד
כאשר אמרו |עירובין י”ג ע”ב| נמנו וגמרו טוב לו שלא נברא משנברא ועכשיו שנברא יפשפש במעשיו
והדבר תמוה כי לפ”ז נמצאת בריאת אדם לרעתו ח”ו לפועל טוב שיפעל
?! רע והאיך נברך על שיצר את האדם בחכמה אם להרע לו
אבל הענין כך הוא, כי בהא פליגי אם נשמתו של אדם יורדת ברצון לגוף העכור או בעל כרחו, כי איננה יודעת כל העתידות ולא מצאה חקר אלהות על בוריה וטוב לה שלא נבראה אבל הקב”ה הוא יודע שהוא לטובה הוא בוראה וכופה לנשמה לילך בזה העולם וכמאמרם |אבות סופ”ד| בעל כרחך אתה נולד
וזוהיא הכונה שנחלקו כת אחת סוברים שהנשמה הולכת באהבה ורצון לזה העולם וכת שניה סבירא ליה נוח לה שלא נבראה משנבראה ולדעתם לא היתה מסכימה להברא אבל מה נפקא מינה בדעתה הקב”ה הוא מכריח כי הוא יודע שהוא לטובתה והטיב לה בזה
לכן עכשיו שנברא יפשפש במעשיו לעשות נחת לקונו ואולי ירחם ה’ לנחמנו בנחמת ציון ויבולע המות לנצח ובא לציון גואל אמן ואמןDecember 28, 2017 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1439073
re: question Hashem can do anything, and could have created the world however He wanted. He chose to create it in a way that people suffer.
So in this mans mind, that leaves him two options : Hashem is bad or cruel cvs. Or there is no G-d. He goes with the latter.
My answer is really emuna based.
Anyone have a good intellectual answer, not emuna based?
Ask him- if everything was good then what would be the point in life?December 31, 2017 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1440117
“Ask him- if everything was good then what would be the point in life?”
To grow from strength to strength- are you saying people should suffer so I can feel good it’s not me!? I’m all for moshiach times when things will be all good.December 31, 2017 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1440133
are you saying people should suffer so I can feel good it’s not me!?
Where do you see that in GCL’s post?December 31, 2017 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1440139
I’m trying to understand why he would think that there is no point to life without sufferingDecember 31, 2017 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1440145
Okay, but you made up a ridiculous explanation for what he/she meant.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.