Question I don’t know the answer to :) ๐Ÿค”

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  • #1423862

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Speaking of emuna, even when you can’t answer a question on Yiddishkeit satisfactorily, someone asked me a question.Maybe one of you can enlighten me with an answer:

    This man has suffered a hard situation which caused him to leave Yiddishkeit because he couldn’t answer this dilemma :

    Hashem can do anything, and could have created the world however He wanted. He chose to create it in a way that people suffer.

    So in this mans mind, that leaves him two options : Hashem is bad or cruel cvs. Or there is no G-d. He goes with the latter.

    My answer is really emuna based.

    Anyone have a good intellectual answer, not emuna based?

    #1423895

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Hashem is doing this because he loves you and wants only food for you even though it may seem not good.

    #1423899

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Alas, the two keys are too close together for their own good.

    #1423902

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Good*

    #1423908

    ready now
    Participant

    Hashem is not cruel.
    People suffer to cleanse them of their sins. They have sinned because they broke Hashem’s laws which Hashem put out in the beginning.
    If there is no suffering to fix one’s sins the world would have been over very quickly, so Hashem is patient.
    The covenant with Noah for gentiles and the B’ris Olam with Israel are covenants that Hashem will not break.
    Hashem exists, as matter cannot create itself. A prime mover is needed-Hashem is the One Who proclaimed Himself Creator of the whole universe – “In the beginning…” and said to follow no “other”.

    #1423916

    I think the Chofetz Chaim gives a moshol, which I don’t have time to write out now, but the short answer is: nahama d’kisufa.

    #1423917

    The bottom line, though, is that it’s not really an intellectual question, it’s an emotional one. You mentioned that this person had a great deal of suffering…

    #1424003

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    We are not the ones to judge. Iyov said basically the same thing ืืจืฅ ื ืชื ื” ื‘ื™ื“… HaShem did not hold him accountable, (only ื‘ืœื ื“ืขืช). If one truly wants to be mekarev such a person, it must be with much Secel and patience. But for a Jewish Neshamah, there is ALWAYS hope. It can always me rekindled, anytime, sometimes without warning, at a seemingly insignificant occurrence, thought, circumstance.

    #1424005

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Question I donโ€™t know the answer to”

    Is this title predicated on the assumption that it is rare for there to be a question you don’t know the answer to? (:

    #1424029

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    Maybe you don’t really need to understand Hashem? As someone once said “I’m not interested in a G-d I can understand…”

    #1424046

    The question is an expression of one of the most
    well-known problems in religious philosophy.

    #1424047

    People suffer to cleanse them of their sins. They have sinned because
    they broke Hashemโ€™s laws which Hashem put out in the beginning.

    Children suffer, too. (So you’ll answer that they
    must be a gilgul, but how do you know that?)
    And we certainly see people who appear to us to have sinned
    more seemingly suffering less than people who appear to have
    sinned less do. It’s a hard answer for some people to accept.

    #1424101

    (Failure to properly close markup strikes me again – only
    the first, quoted, paragraph was meant to be italicized.)

    #1424102

    ready now
    Participant

    Rand0m3x ๐Ÿง ๐Ÿ•ด๏ธ๐ŸŽฒ Yes gilgul. Bamidbar 14:18 ” but visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and fourth generations “.
    Also, everything is hidden, so Hashem alone judges the measure of sin and the measure of punishment, whether in this life or the next life.

    #1424246

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Thanks for the responses.

    @770chavad @readynow those are great answers to the question why do people suffer. But this isn’t his question. His question was that Hashem created this system. He couldve created it differently.

    And we already discussed that the pain comes in a a result of sinning. But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way. So he’s wondering why He chose such a system?

    @daasyochid @littlefroggie what you say is true. But it’s so hard to see someone waste his life because he has a question. I wish I could answer him.

    I have pondered this question myself and have an answer, but like I said it’s more emuna based so I don’t think it’ll work for him.

    @joseph I guess sort of lol. When I was in high school, whenever I thought of a question, I would not rest tool I got a satisfactory answer. When I left high school I was surprised to see most of the questions that come my way are ones I had myself or never had to begin with because the basis of the difficulty that was the basis for it, was clear to me. So it is funnily enough, a bit rare to find myself at a loss for words to answer this fellow in a way he can accept.

    #1424277

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way.

    Woah wait, stop the wagon. I cannot for one second believe that Hashem commanded Adam and Chava to not eat from the etz pri hadaas while secretly wanting them to, so that their sin somehow caused the world to function in the way He intended to. That is completely contrary to the plain meaning of the pesukim, and it implies, CV”S, that Hashem is deceptive. Yet, as we say every day at the end of Shema: Hashem Elokeichem Emes. It is clear that Hashem did not want Adam and Chava to eat from the tree, and that their doing so resulted in extremely negative consequences for the world, and required adjustments to Hashem’s plans for humanity, most notably the exile from Gan Eden.

    Convenient answers to your question are that man, not G-d, causes suffering due to sinning. And that suffering is a kapara. And that suffering yields opportunities for a man to elevate himself, such as the testing of the Avos. These answers are all true, but probably feel distant and cold to someone who, G-d forbid, has a child who is suffering. Nobody knows the answer to your question, because we cannot understand even the tiniest fraction of Hashem’s perspective. All I know is we do not see the whole picture, and Hashem loves us more than we can know. And it’s ok to cry.

    #1424280

    2scents
    Participant

    If we believe that we can understand Hashems ways, that would mean we are limiting Hashem to only what our minds can grasp, when in reality its way greater than we perceive.

    What might seem like a tragedy might turn out to be for our benefit.

    #1424296

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Quoting the Chafetz Chayim: To those who believe there are no questions; to those who don’t there are no answers.

    #1424317

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @avrammd no Cvs, like you said Hashem is not deceptive. There really was a plan a. However what I said still stands. Sounds like you never heard of the concept before. So I guess it could be another discussion if you want. I may need hypo on up the sources though, so is this only foreign to avrammd? Abs others can fill in?

    #1424478

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    There really was a plan a. However what I said still stands.

    You said that the etz pri hadaas was essentially a set-up. By this do you mean that, despite the fact that Hashem told Adam to not eat from the tree, He meant for them to? Sorry, I have a hard time believing that our Creator, who commanded us not to put a stumbling block before the blind, and who said through His prophet, “choose life!” would desire a sin and the death it brought.

    Sounds like you never heard of the concept before.

    I have, but never from an Orthodox Jew.

    So I guess it could be another discussion if you want. I may need hypo on up the sources though, so is this only foreign to avrammd? Abs others can fill in?

    Go right ahead.

    #1424512

    I’ve heard of a similar concept regarding the Eigel.

    #1424511

    Bamidbar 14:18 โ€but visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and fourth generations.โ€œ

    That posuk refers to when those descendants repeat their forebears’ sins.

    Quoting the Chafetz Chayim: To those who believe there are no questions;
    to those who donโ€™t there are no answers.

    Great. All you have to do now is make him a believer.

    #1424529

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Its the essence of emunah on any issue….we only know that we will never know the “why” of what the Ebeshter does or chooses not to do. We can tie ourselves in knots and engage in all sorts of speculation as often happens here among the resident neviim here on YWN who claim an ability to explain to explain every tragedy and link it to tzinius, toevah marriage, taharas hamishpacha or whatever. Or else, we simply yield to the reality that hashem does what he does and we go on with our lives expecting the good the ultimately prevail for ourselves and klal yisroel.

    #1424548

    GAON
    Participant

    Shlucha,

    “But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way. So heโ€™s wondering why He chose such a system?”

    What do you mean “knows”? Huh how would he know that as a “fact”? Why in the world would anyone teach him that as the simple way to understand that. It sure is not – even the Kabalistic world like the Ramchal in Derech Hashem does not say that. He explains that as something that was derived and happened as a result as a human flaw, and Hashem waited until Avrhom Avinu that the human race should correct it…

    Even the Chabd Seforim do not say so, at least the Alte Rebbe in Torah Ohr, he says the following in Parshas Breshis he explains the issue how the “Birur Ras” would have been without the Chet:

    “. ื•ืข”ื“ ืฉื”ื™ื” ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ืฉื‘ื”ืž”ืง ื”ื™ื” ืงื™ื™ื ืฉื”ืจื™ ืืจื–”ืœ ืœื ื’ืœื• ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืืœื ื›ื“ื™ ืฉื™ืชื•ืกืคื• ืขืœื™ื”ื ื’ืจื™ื ื“ื”ื™ื™ื ื• ืœื”ืขืœื•ืช ื ืฆื•ืฆื•ืช ื•ืžื” ื”ื™ื” ื ืขืฉื” ืื ืœื ื—ื˜ืื• ื•ืœื ื”ื™ื• ื’ื•ืœื™ื. ืืœื ืข”ื› ืฆ”ืœ ืฉืื– ื”ื™ื• ื ื›ืœืœื™ื ื”ื ืฆื•ืฆื•ืช ืžืžื™ืœื ื›ื ืจ ื‘ืคื ื™ ื”ืื‘ื•ืงื” ื›ืžื• ื ืขืžื” ื”ืขืžื•ื ื™ืช ื•ื›ืŸ ื›ืœ ื”ืขืžื™ื ื‘ืื• ืœืฉืžื•ืข ื—ื›ืžืช ืฉืœืžื” ื•ื›ืž”ืฉ ื‘ืžืœื›ืช ืฉื‘ื ื›ื•’. ื•ื”ื™ื™ื ื• ืœืคื™ ืฉืื– ื”ื™ื” ืื‘ื•ืงื” ื’ื“ื•ืœื” ืขื“”ืž ืข”ื› ืžืžื™ืœื ืžืชื›ืœืœื™ื ื‘ื” ื”ื ืฆื•ืฆื•ืช ื•ืื ื”ื™ื” ื ืžืฉืš ื‘ื”ืž”ืง ื›ืŸ ื™ื•ืชืจ ื”ื™ื• ื›ื•ืœื ืžืชื‘ืจืจื™ื ืขื“”ื– ื•ื›ืž”ืฉ ืœืข”ืœ (ืฆืคื ื™ื” ื’’) ืื– ืื”ืคื•ืš ืืœ ืขืžื™ื ืฉืคื” ื‘ืจื•ืจื” ื›ื•’. ื•ื”ืœื›ื• ื’ื•ื™ื ืœืื•ืจืš ื›ื•’. ื•ื›ืš ื”ื™ื” ืขื ื™ืŸ ื”ืื“ื ื›ืฉืœื ื”ื™ื” ื—ื•ื˜ื ืฉื”ื™ื” ื›ื•ืœื• ืงื“ื•ืฉ ื›ื™ ื’ื ื’ื•ืคื• ื ืœืงื— ืžืžืงื•ื ื”ืžื–ื‘ื— ื•ืžืžื ื• ื ืขืฉื• ืจืž”ื— ืื‘ืจื™ื• ื‘ืœื•ืœ ื‘ืฉืžืŸ ื›ื•’ ื•ื”ื™ื” ืขื•ืžื“ ื‘ื’”ืข ื•ืฉื ื”ื™ื” ืžื•ืกื™ืฃ ืื•ืจื•ืช ื•ืžืžื™ืœื ื”ื™ื• ื”ืงืœื™ืคื•ืช ื›ืœื™ื ืข”ื™ ืฉื”ื™ื• ื”ื ืฆื•ืฆื™ ืงื“ื•ืฉื” ื›ืœื™ื ืžื”ื ืื‘ืœ ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื”ื™ื” ืฉืœื ืข”ื™ ืžืœื—ืžื” ื›ื•’. ืžืฉื”ื› ืื—ืจ ืฉื—ื˜ื ืื–ื™ ืฆ”ืœ ื”ื‘ื™ืจื•ืจื™ื ืข”ื™ ืขื‘ื•ื“ื” ื•ืžืœื—ืžื” ืฉืขืช ืฆืœื•ืชื ืฉืขืช ืงืจื‘ื ื›ื ”ืœ ื•ืฆืจื™ืš ืœื™ืจื“ ืืœ ืžืงื•ื ื”ืงืœื™ืคื•ืช ื•ืฉื ื™ื‘ืจืจื ื•ื–ื”ื• ืืช ื”ืื“ืžื” ืืฉืจ ืœืงื— ืžืฉื.

    The above indicates that the world was original meant to be without the Chet of the Etz haDaas…

    In any case, can you please post where the source is?

    #1424593

    ready now
    Participant

    Ramdom 3X, Hashem gave free will, so nothing is a โ€œset-upโ€, even for Adam and Eve.
    There is freewill, BUT all is foreseen in Hashemโ€™s eyes. โ€“Pirke Avos
    Hashem is perfectly just, so if children suffer is precisely because of gilgul (if they are tiny children or adult children) OR the fact that they, the children, as adults, are sinners, unbeknownst to all onlookers. An adult can still be a child if his parents are still alive, he is called their child.
    In fact โ€œthere is no living so righteous that he does not sinโ€ (TORAH) AND we do not know the โ€œvalueโ€ of one mitzvah (and its transgressionโ€ against the โ€œvalueโ€ of any other mitzvah and its transgression.(Pirke Avos)

    #1424822

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Wow gaon thanks for that! I admit I don’t know the source offhand, I definitely didn’t tell him that, it wouldn’t have helped anyway, he told me he learned that. And as I have the concept before, and also with regards to chet haegel, that it was kind of a set up so bnei Yisrael could attain the level of Baalei teshuva which is higher than tzaddikim, I wasn’t going to tell him it’s not true. He learned it himself, and I’ve heard it to. I would love to see the source inside (could be I originally saw it in a maamar but it’s been some time.) I’ll ask around and try to get back. Shame sechel hayashar isn’t here to help. If anyone else knows it please fill us in

    #1424936

    GAON
    Participant

    Shlucha,
    “I wasnโ€™t going to tell him itโ€™s not true. He learned it himself, and Iโ€™ve heard it to. I would love to see the source inside ”

    Whether there is a source or not is not the issue – we are not responsible for every theory and half-baked drasha out there which interferes with any Emunah or the excepted pshat.

    I will quote what the Ramban once said in his famous debate in Spain, in regards to Agadaic Midrashim, the Apostate kept on bringing up that Moshiach “was already born on T”B”, and thus already arrived etc. on that the Ramban replied as the following:

    ืงืžืชื™ ื•ืื•ืžืจ:
    ืฉืžืขื• ืขืžื™ื ื›ื•ืœื. ืคืจืื™ ืคื•ืœ ืฉืืœื ื™ ืื ื›ื‘ืจ ื‘ื ื”ืžืฉื™ื— ืฉื“ื‘ืจื• ื‘ื• ื”ื ื‘ื™ืื™ื, ื•ืืžืจืชื™ ืฉืœื ื‘ื. ื•ื”ื‘ื™ื ืกืคืจ ืื’ื“ื” ืฉืืžืจ ื‘ื• ื›ื™ ื‘ื™ื•ื ืฉื—ืจื‘ ื‘ื™ืช ื”ืžืงื“ืฉ ื‘ื• ื‘ื™ื•ื ื ื•ืœื“. ื•ืืžืจืชื™ ืื ื™ ืฉืื™ื ื™ ืžืืžื™ืŸ ื‘ื–ื”.
    ื“ืขื• ื›ื™ ืื ื—ื ื• ื™ืฉ ืœื ื• ืฉืœื•ืฉื” ืžื™ื ื™ืŸ ืฉืœ ืกืคืจื™ื,
    ื”ืื—ื“ ื”ื•ื ื”ื‘ื‘”ืœื™ื”, ื•ื›ื•ืœื ื• ืžืืžื™ื ื™ื ื‘ื• ืืžื•ื ื” ืฉืœืžื”.
    ื•ื”ืฉื ื™ ื”ื•ื ื ืงืจื ืชืœืžื•ื“, ื•ื”ื•ื ืคื™ืจื•ืฉ ืœืžืฆื•ื•ืช ื”ืชื•ืจื”, ื›ื™ ื‘ืชื•ืจื” ื™ืฉ ืชืจื™”ื’ ืžืฆื•ื•ืช ื•ืื™ืŸ ื‘ื” ืื—ืช ืฉืœื ื ืชืคืจืฉื” ื‘ืชืœืžื•ื“, ื•ืื ื—ื ื• ืžืืžื™ื ื™ื ื‘ื• ื‘ืคื™ืจื•ืฉ ื”ืžืฆื•ืช.

    ืขื•ื“ ื™ืฉ ืœื ื• ืกืคืจ ืฉืœื™ืฉื™ ื”ื ืงืจื ืžื“ืจืฉ, ืจื•ืฆื” ืœื•ืžืจ ืฉืจืž”ื•ื ื™ืฉ. ื›ืžื• ืฉืื ื™ืขืžื•ื“ ื”ื”ื’ืžื•ืŸ ื•ื™ืขืฉื” ืฉืจืžื•ืŸ (ืื—ื“), ื•ืื—ื“ ืžืŸ ื”ืฉื•ืžืขื™ื ื”ื™ื” ื˜ื•ื‘ ื‘ืขื™ื ื™ื• ื•ื›ืชื‘ื•. ื•ื–ื” ื”ืกืคืจ ืžื™ ืฉื™ืืžื™ืŸ ื‘ื• ื˜ื•ื‘, ื•ืžื™ ืฉืœื ื™ืืžื™ืŸ ื‘ื• ืœื ื™ื–ื™ืง.

    – ื•ื™ื›ื•ื— ื”ืจืžื‘”ืŸ –
    (ื™ื•ื ื”ืฉื ื™)

    It goes without saying, that we absolutely do not have to believe anything you just randomly hear…

    #1425099

    GAON
    Participant

    Here the Ramchal explains clearly that even after the Chet – Hashem gave the world a chance to once again go back and return to its former status:

    ืื“ื ื”ืจืืฉื•ืŸ ืงื•ื“ื ื—ื˜ืื• ื”ื™ื” ื‘ืžืฆื‘ ืขืœื™ื•ืŸ ืžืื“ ืžืžื” ืฉื”ื•ื ื”ืื“ื ืขืชื” ื•ื›ื‘ืจ ื‘ื™ืืจื ื• ืขื ื™ืŸ ื–ื” (ื‘ื—ืœืง ื’ ืคืจืง ื’’). ื•ืžื“ืจื™ื’ืช ื”ืื ื•ืฉื™ื•ืช ืœืคื™ ื”ืžืฆื‘ ื”ื”ื•ื ื”ื™ืชื” ืžื“ืจื™ื’ื” ื ื›ื‘ื“ืช ืžืื“ ืจืื•ื™ื” ืœืžืขืœื” ืจืžื” ื ืฆื—ื™ื™ืช ื›ืžื•”ืฉ. ื•ืืœื• ืœื ื”ื™ื” ื—ื•ื˜ื ื”ื™ื” ืžืฉืชืœื ื•ืžืชืขืœื” ืขื•ื“ ืขื™ืœื•ื™ ืขืœ ืขื™ืœื•ื™. ื•ื”ื ื” ื‘ืื•ืชื• ื”ืžืฆื‘ ื”ื˜ื•ื‘ ื”ื™ื” ืœื• ืœื”ื•ืœื™ื“ ืชื•ืœื“ื•ืช ืžืกืคืจ ืžืฉื•ืขืจ ืžื—ื›ืžืชื• ื™ืช’ ืขืœ ืคื™ ืืžืชืช ืžื” ืฉืจืื•ื™ ืœืฉืœื™ืžื•ืช ื”ื ื”ื ื™ื ื‘ื˜ื•ื‘ื• ื™ืช’ ื•ื”ื™ื• ื›ืœื ื ื”ื ื™ื ืขืžื• ื‘ื˜ื•ื‘ ื”ื”ื•ื. ื•ืืžื ื ื”ืชื•ืœื“ื•ืช ื”ืืœื” ืฉื”ื™ื” ืจืื•ื™ ืฉื™ื•ืœื™ื“ ื ื’ื–ืจื• ื•ืฉื•ืขืจื• ืžืœืคื ื™ื• ื™ืช’ ืžืฉื•ืขืจื™ื ื‘ื”ื“ืจื’ื•ืช ืžื™ื•ื—ื“ื•ืช ืคื™ืจื•ืฉ ืฉื™ื”ื™ื” ื‘ื”ื ืจืืฉื™ื™ื ื•ื ื˜ืคืœื™ื ืฉืจืฉื™ื ื•ืขื ืคื™ื ื ืžืฉื›ื™ื ื–ื” ืื—ืจ ื–ื” ื‘ืกื“ืจ ืžื™ื•ื—ื“ ื›ืื™ืœื ื•ืช ื•ืขื ืคื™ื”ื ื•ืžืกืคืจ ื”ืื™ืœื ื•ืช ื•ืžืกืคืจ ื”ืขื ืคื™ื ื”ื›ืœ ืžืฉื•ืขืจ ื‘ืชื›ืœื™ืช ื”ื“ืงื“ื•ืง.

    ื•ื”ื ื” ื‘ื—ื˜ืื• ื™ืจื“ ืžืื“ ืžืžื“ืจื™ื’ืชื• ื•ื ื›ืœืœ ืžืŸ ื”ื—ืฉืš ื•ื”ืขื›ื™ืจื•ืช ืฉื™ืขื•ืจ ื’ื“ื•ืœ ื•ื›ืžืฉ”ืœ. ื•ื›ืœืœ ื”ืžื™ืŸ ื”ืื ื•ืฉื™ ื™ืจื“ ืžืžื“ืจื™ื’ืชื• ื•ืขืžื“ ื‘ืžื“ืจื’ื” ืฉืคืœื” ืžืื“ ื‘ืœืชื™ ืจืื•ื™ื” ืœืžืขืœื” ื”ืจืžื” ื”ื ืฆื—ื™ื™ืช ืฉื”ืชืขืชื“ ืœื” ื‘ืจืืฉื•ื ื” ื•ืœื ื ืฉืืจ ืžื–ื•ืžืŸ ื•ืžื•ื›ืŸ ืืœื ืœืžื“ืจื™ื’ื” ืคื—ื•ืชื” ืžืžื ื” ืคื—ื™ืชื•ืช ืจื‘ ื•ื‘ื‘ื—ื™ื ื” ื–ืืช ื”ื•ืœื™ื“ ืชื•ืœื“ื•ืช ื‘ืขื•ืœื ื›ืœื ื‘ืžื“ืจื’ื” ื”ืฉืคืœื” ื”ื–ืืช ืฉื–ื›ืจื ื•.

    ื•ืืžื ื ืืขืค”ื› ืœื ื—ื“ืœ ืžื”ืžืฆื ื‘ื›ืœืœ ืžื“ืจื™ื’ืช ื”ืžื™ืŸ ื”ืื ื•ืฉื™ ืžืฆื“ ืฉืจืฉื• ื”ืืžื™ืชื™ ื‘ื—ื™ื ื” ืขืœื™ื•ื ื” ืžืŸ ื”ื‘ื—ื™ื ื” ืฉื”ื™ื” ื”ืžื™ืŸ ื”ื–ื” ืื– ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ืงืœืงื•ืœื•. ื•ืœื ื ื“ื—ื” ืื“ื””ืจ ืœื’ืžืจื™ ืฉืœื ื™ื•ื›ืœ ืœืฉื•ื‘ ืืœ ื”ืžื“ืจื™ื’ื” ื”ืขืœื™ื•ื ื” ืื‘ืœ ื ืžืฆื ื‘ืคื•ืขืœ ื‘ืžื“ืจื™ื’ื” ื”ืฉืคืœื” ื•ื‘ื‘ื—ื™ื ื” ื›ื—ื ื™ื•ืช ืืœ ื”ืžื“ืจื™ื’ื” ื”ืขืœื™ื•ื ื”.

    ื•ื”ื ื” ื ืชืŸ ื”ืื“ื•ืŸ ื‘”ื” ืœืคื ื™ ื”ืชื•ืœื“ื•ืช ื”ื”ื ืฉื ืžืฆืื• ื‘ืื•ืชื• ื”ื–ืžืŸ ืืช ื”ื‘ื—ื™ืจื” ืฉื™ืชื—ื–ืงื• ื•ื™ืฉืชื“ืœื• ืœื”ืชืขืœื•ืช ืžืŸ ื”ืžื“ืจื™ื’ื” ื”ืฉืคืœื” ื•ืœืฉื™ื ืขืฆืžื ื‘ืžื“ืจื™ื’ื” ื”ืขืœื™ื•ื ื”. ื•ื”ื ื™ื— ืœื”ื ื–ืžืŸ ืœื“ื‘ืจ ื›ืžื• ืฉืฉื™ืขืจื” ื”ื—ื›ืžื” ื”ืขืœื™ื•ื ื” ื”ื™ื•ืชื• ื ืื•ืช ืœื”ืฉืชื“ืœื•ืช ื”ื–ื” ื•ืขืœ ื“ืจืš ืžื” ืฉืžื ื—ืช ืขืชื” ืœื ื• ืœืฉื ื”ื™ื” ืžืฉื™ื’ื™ื ื”ืฉืœื™ืžื•ืช ื•ื”ืžื“ืจื™ื’ื” ื‘ืงื™ื‘ื•ืฅ ื‘ื ื™ ื”ืขื•ื””ื‘ ื›ืžืฉ”ืœ.
    – ื“ืจืš ื”’ ื—ืœืง ืฉื ื™ ื“ –
    Later he explains how Hashem opted to correct the Chet through Avrohom and Klal Yisrael…

    All this indicates not like the pshat above, the Chet was not intended/setup at all in any way.

    Shlucha:

    I highly suggest you (and him/her) should learn though the Sefer Derech Hashem it is basic Emunah that every Jew should know, and I’m sure it will answer many of his issues.
    It is available with translations and on-line as well.
    Just google “ื“ืจืš ื””

    #1425782

    The moshol I referred to above is as follows: (apologies for any embellishment or inaccuracy)

    A man with no marketable skills begs a distant relative, a wealthy owner of many factories and businesses, for a job.

    He hires him to work in one of his factories, as a kindness.

    Years later, the owner, who doesn’t even remember this man, decides to visit this factory.

    He calls a meeting for all employees, and asks each what his job is.

    One replies that he works on the product design, another that he does maintenance of the facility, another that he does inventory, etc.

    Finally, it’s his relative’s turn. The poor fellow, clearly embarrassed, sheepishly looks down and mutters, “every day I come to the factory and collect my wages”.

    That’s called “nahama d’kisufa” – bread of shame.

    As I recall, the Chofetz Chaim used this moshol to explain why, since Hashem created us for our own benefit, ultimately, as the Mesilas Yesharim says, “l’hisaneg al Hashem v’leihanos miziv sh’chinoso” – for the ultimate reward which awaits us in the World to Come – why couldn’t He have simply put us all in Gan Eden without all of the mitzvos (positive and negative), which are tremendous challenges?

    He answers with the above moshol, and I believe it also answers why we need punishment and suffering.

    Chabadshluchah, the fellow you refer to may counter that it still doesn’t explain why Hashem had to create such a system, but I think the answer to that is that a system without reward and punishment, and the benefits of earning the reward by working for it (and the possibility of punishment and suffering for sinning) is inherently not a just system.

    Yes, Hashem has the ability to do anything, but that doesn’t mean it is His will to do something which is not inherently just and correct.

    So, in order to create a just world with the potential for us to obtain the utmost reward and pleasure, He created a system with reward and punishment, which sometimes takes the form of suffering.

    May Hashem help this poor fellow to see the truth.

    #1425792

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Shlucha, I think you (or your friend) have it confused between what Adam thought Hashem wanted and what Hashem actually wanted.
    Hashem created the world to do good, to give all HIs good to his creations. He did not create it so that people should suffer. But to avoid nehama d’chisufa, good that one does not earn and therefore becomes shameful, He set up the mitzvos so that we can earn that good. If one does not do the mitzvos, one does not get the good.
    Adam had one mitzva. Adam believed that Hashem actually wanted him to eat from the Etz Hadaas, so that he could achieve an even higher spiritual level, by showing he was willing to sacrifice his life (this idea can be found in the Meshech Chochma) or by doing teshuva. Meaning, Adam thought it was a set-up, so to speak. But that is not what Hashem wanted, and terrible consequences and suffering resulted from his misunderstanding of Hashem’s mitzva. And to this very day we have to be metakein this chet. The suffering that we have today is a consequence of man’s actions, and rationalizations, and not Hashem’s purpose for the world.
    Maybe in this lies the answer- as people, we try to rationalize and try to understand what Hashem wants and we fool ourselves to think we understand it all. We need to admit that we are mere mortals, fallible who cannot possibly comprehend Hashem’s plans, and we should not try to apply our logic to Hashem’s Logic, but live the maxim of “tamim tehiyu im Hashem Elokecha” without cheshbonos. Yes, it does boil down to emuna, I can’t see how you can separate it from the answer.

    #1425828

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    This should read: “Question to which I do not know the answer” – otherwise “to” is a dangling modifier and we frown upon those.

    #1425834

    mentsch1
    Participant

    2 cents
    or to rephrase what you said
    If you only worship a G-d you can understand that really you are just worshiping yourself

    #1425836

    mentsch1
    Participant

    There is a machlokes in the gemorrah between Bais Shamai and Bais Hillel
    about whether or not it is in man’s benefit to have been born. The gemarrah paskens that bais shamai is correct “tov shelo nivra adam”, it would have been better to not have been born. The way I have always understood this is that if we didn’t exist, we couldn’t have been missing out on the reward. so we don’t want the reward or punishment. simple in-existence would have been perfect.
    Which in theory , is an argument I plan on using achar meah v’esrim shana, and it is a philosophical question I have never seen answered well.
    That said the gemarrah ends off, but now that we are here, we need to do the work we are here for.

    In my experience, people who go off the derech always have a reason, and you can’t argue with that reason.
    Someone in my neighborhood is currently leaving his family and kids for a secular lifestyle. His reasons, G-d created ridiculous halachas for women. Of course, his wife is very dedicated to the frum lifestyle. When I point out the hypocrisy that he is using his wife as an excuse (and she doesn’t feel “oppressed”) it doesn’t make a dent.
    Hashem leads a person in the derech that he wants to go

    #1425865

    The gemarrah paskens that bais shamai is correct โ€œtov shelo nivra adamโ€

    The Gemara actually says “noach lo l’adam shelo nivra”, and misquoting it is a grievous error.

    It may indeed not be comfortable (noach) to have been created, and undergo the challenges we do, but ultimately, it is certainly for our best, and chas v’chalilah to say otherwise. Vayar Elokim ki tov.

    #1426160

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Wow it’s fun to be part of a thread where we can all agree at least respectfully hear and learn from each other. Some pointers :

    @gaon thanks allot. I’m sure that is another way of understanding it, and there are shiviim panim laTorah. However that being said, I can’t say to the fellow that what he said is incorrect because I remember learning it myself and is definitely a part of Torah just another facet. Assuming based on kabbola. Haven’t seen it in some time though so can’t remember it clearly enough to answer all questions on it. I think the posuk Norah alila al bnei Adam tied in. This means Hashem makes awesome libels / set ups against man. I note that isn’t helpful without the full picture. I’ll try to look it up.

    @dy maybe he’ll go for it and regardless its a great mashal thanks!!
    Only problem is that Hashem isn’t limited – He can create a satisfying and just system of He wanted.

    So ultimately it does boil down to emuna- at least to new I haven’t found a purely rational answer yet as wtp said as well

    And obviously it’s impossible to fully understand Hashem, but up to the point of Atzilus at least, there’s allot He’s given us to be able to understand so we can learn and grow abs follow in His Ways.

    #1426204

    Only problem is that Hashem isnโ€™t limited โ€“ He can create a satisfying and just system of He wanted.

    Not if “just” doesn’t fit with your definition of “satisfying”…

    You know the famous question if Hashem can create a stone so heavy that He can’t lift it? How would you answer it?

    I would answer that He can’t, but that isn’t a contradiction to the idea that He is “kol yochol” (unlimited), because the fact the He “can’t” do something which is inherently self contradictory isn’t a limitation in Him, it’s the nature of the paradox you are asking about.

    Similarly, if your definition of “satisfying” doesn’t fit in with His (perfect) concept of justice, that’s not a limitation in Him ch”v, it’s a flaw in you.

    #1426262

    GAON
    Participant

    @Daas,
    “The Gemara actually says โ€œnoach lo lโ€™adam shelo nivraโ€, and misquoting it is a grievous error.”

    Well said, Daas!
    actually I found someone quoting the Sefer haBris that says pshat in the above machlokes as the following:

    ืกืคืจ ื”ื‘ืจื™ืช (ื—”ื‘ ืžืืžืจ ื™”ื‘

    ืืฃ ื’ื ืื ื™ืฆื ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ืžืคื™ ื—ื›ืžื™ื ืจื‘ื™ื ืžื ื•ื™ื” ื•ื’ืžื•ืจื” ื‘ืกื•ื“ ื—ื›ืžื™ ืชื•ืจื” ื›ื‘ื™ืช ืฉืžืื™ ืขื ื‘ื™ืช ื”ืœืœ ืืœ ืชืืžื™ืŸ ื›ื™ ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื›ืคืฉื•ื˜ื• ื•ื›ืžืฉืžืขื•, ื›ื’ื•ืŸ ืžื” ืฉืืžืจื• (ื‘ืคืจืง ืงืžื ื“ืขื™ืจื•ื‘ื™ืŸ) ื ื•ื— ืœื• ืœืื“ื ืฉืœื ื ื‘ืจื ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžืฉื ื‘ืจื ื•ื–ื” ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ืžื ื’ื“ ื•ืกื•ืชืจ ืœืืฉืจ ืžืคื•ืจืกื ื‘ืื•ืžืชื ื• ืžืขื•ืœื ื›ื™ ื˜ื•ื‘ ื”’ ื•ืžืงื‘ื™ืœืช ืœื”ืžืกื•ืจืช ื‘ื™ื“ื™ื ื• ื•ืงื‘ืœ ื”ื™ื”ื•ื“ื™ื ืžืจืืฉ ืืžื ื” ื›ื™ ื˜ื•ื‘ ื”’ ืœื›ืœ ื•ื—ืกื™ื“ ื‘ื›ืœ ืžืขืฉื™ื•, ื•ืื ื ื•ื›ืœ ืœื•ืžืจ ืขืœ ื”ื ื‘ืจื ื›ื™ ืœื ื˜ื•ื‘ ืื™ืš ื ื•ื›ืœ ืœื•ืžืจ ืขืœ ื”ื‘ื•ืจื ื›ื™ ื˜ื•ื‘, ื•ื‘ื›ืŸ ื™ื“ืขื ื• ื‘ื˜ื— ืฉืื™ืŸ ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื›ืŸ ื•ื”ืืžืช ื‘ื”ืคืš ื›ื™ ื ื•ื— ืœื• ืœืื“ื ืฉื ื‘ืจื ื™ื•ืชืจ ืžืฉืœื ื ื‘ืจื ืœืžืขืŸ ื™ืขื‘ื•ื“ ืืช ื”’ ื•ื›ืœ ืืฉืจ ืขืฉื” ืืœื”ื™ื ื”ื•ื ื˜ื•ื‘ ื•ืœื ืจืข, ื•ื“ื‘ืจื™ื”ื ื–”ืœ ืฆืจื™ืš ืคื™ืจื•ืฉ ื›ืคื™ืจื•ืฉ ื”ืชื•ืกืคื•ืช (ืฉื) ืฉื–ื” ืื™ืŸ ื”ื›ื•ื•ื ื” ื‘ื• ืืœื ืœืกืชื ื‘ื ื™ ืื“ื ืื‘ืœ ื”ืฆื“ื™ืง ืืฉืจื™ ืœื• ื•ืืฉืจื™ ืœื“ื•ืจื•, ื’ื ืคื™ืจื•ืฉื™ื ืื—ืจื™ื ื™ืฉ ื‘ื–ื” ื’ื ื”ืขืœื ื“ื‘ืจ ื‘ื—ื›ืžื” ื•ื‘ืชื‘ื•ื ื” ื’ื ืกื•ื“ ืžืกื•ื“ ืืœื•ื”,

    ืจืง ืœื ืœืคืจืฉ ืขืœ ืคื™ ืคืฉื•ื˜ื• ื•ื—ืœื™ืœื” ืœืš ืœื—ืฉื•ื‘ ื›ื™ ื”ื—ื›ืžื™ื ื•ืฆื“ื™ืงื™ื ื›ื‘ื™ืช ืฉืžืื™ ื•ื‘ื™ืช ื”ืœืœ ื™ืกื›ื™ืžื• ืขืœ ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื”ื•ื ื ื’ื“ ื›ื‘ื•ื“ ื”ื‘ื•ืจื ื•ืืช ืคื•ืขืœ ื”’ ืœื ื™ื‘ื™ื˜ื• ืฉื”ื•ื ืœื˜ื•ื‘ื” ืœื”ื ืคืขืœ ื•ืžืขืฉื” ื™ื“ื™ื• ืœื ืจืื• ืฉื”ื•ื ื™ืคื” ืœื”ื ืขืฉื”, ื•ื›ื™ ื”ื ื–”ืœ ืœื ื™ื“ืขื• ื›ื™ ื”ื•ื ืžื”ื•ืœืœ ื‘ืชืฉื‘ื—ื•ืช ื•ื ื”ื“ืจ ื‘ื›ื‘ื•ื“ ืขืœ ื”ืžืจื›ื‘ื” ืื ื ืืžืจ ื›ื™ ืืช ื›ืœ ืžืขืฉื” ื”’ ื”ื•ื ืœื˜ื•ื‘ื” ืœื›ืœ ืืฉืจ ืขืฉื” ื•ืœื›ืœ ืžื” ืฉื‘ืจื:

    ืืžื ื ืืฃ ื”ื ื–”ืœ ื™ื“ืขื• ื›ื™ ืืš ื˜ื•ื‘ ืœื’ื‘ืจ ื›ื™ ื™ืฉื ืขื•ืœ ืžืœื›ื•ืช ืฉืžื™ื ื•ื™ืขื‘ื•ื“ ืืช ืืœื”ื™ื ื‘ืืจืฅ ื›ื™ ืื™ืŸ ืžืงื•ื ื‘ื›ืœ ื”ืขื•ืœืžื•ืช ื”ืขืœื™ื•ื ื™ื ืœืขื‘ื•ื“ ืืช ื”’ ื•ืœืงื™ื™ื ืžืฆื•ืชื™ื• ื•ืชื•ืจื•ืชื™ื• ื›ื™ ืื ื‘ืขื•ืœื ื”ื–ื”, ื•ื›ืœ ื”ื ืฉืžื•ืช ืืฉืจ ืžื‘ืจืืฉื™ืช ื‘ืขื•ืœืžื•ืช ื”ืขืœื™ื•ื ื™ื ืืฃ ื›ื™ ืžืชืขื ื’ื™ื ื‘ื ื•ืขื ื”’ ื•ื–ื™ื• ื”ืฉื›ื™ื ื” ื‘ืขื“ืŸ ื”ืขืœื™ื•ืŸ ื‘ื›ืœ ื–ืืช ืžืชืคืœืœื™ื ืชืžื™ื“ ื•ืžืชื—ื ื ื™ื ืœืคื ื™ ื›ืกื ื”ื›ื‘ื•ื“ ืฉื™ืชืŸ ืœื”ื ืจืฉื•ืช ืœื™ืจื“ ืžื˜ื” ืœืืจืฅ ืœืžืขืŸ ื™ื•ื›ืœื• ืขื‘ื•ื“ ืืช ื”’ ื•ืœืงื™ื™ื ืžืฆื•ืชื™ื•, ื•ืื ืœื ื”ื™ื” ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื”ื–ื” ื ื•ื— ืœื• ืœืื“ื ืœื ื”ื™ื” ืžืชืคืœืœ ืื‘ืจื”ื ื™ืฆื—ืง ื•ื™ืขืงื‘ ื•ื”ืืžื”ื•ืช ืขืœ ื‘ื ื™ื ื•ื›ืŸ ื›ืœ ืื“ื ืžื™ืฉืจืืœ, ื•ืื ืœื ื”ื™ื” ื”ืชื•ืœื“ื” ื˜ื•ื‘ ื•ื™ืคื” ืœื• ืœืื“ื ืœื ื”ื™ื” ื”ืงื‘”ื” ืžืฆื•ื” ื‘ืชื•ืจืชื• ืžืฆื•ืช ืคืจื• ื•ืจื‘ื• (ื‘ืจืืฉื™ืช ื‘’). ืืคืก ื›ืœ ื”ื“ื‘ืจื™ื ื”ืืœื” ื•ื›ืืœื” ืืžืช ืžืฆื“ ื•ืื™ื ื• ืืžืช ืžืฆื“.

    ืขื“ ื›ืืŸ ื“ื‘ืจื™ื•
    In any case, he says that no way is it to be taken as literal.

    Also see Marsha at the end of Mesechet Makos.

    #1426231

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Daas
    Iโ€™m not sure how your definition of noach fits the Gemara. But even so it doesnโ€™t change the philosophical question.
    Let me ratchet it up a little. If we didnโ€™t exist there would be no discomfort, no pain , no trials etc. both physical and spiritual . Our existence is supposedly because Hashem has a need to give. So Hashem s need to give creates the system . The system has pain and consequences involved. We didnโ€™t ask to be created and part of the system. Had we not been created the loss of reward would not be felt. Therefore how can our creation be part of a selfless need to give? Since ultimately many will suffer?

    #1426288

    Mentch1, you seem to ch”v be accepting option #1…

    Please read GAON’s quote. The gemara according to your misquote is simply untenable. Read it correctly and your questions become non existent. It’s not my definition, it’s what the word means.

    #1426332

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    DY raised an interesting point. How would this man in the OP have preferred the world to be created? What does it mean a world without suffering? Who defines what is suffering? Isn’t that subjective? To give a simple example- a woman suffers during childbirth (actually this is a consequence of Chava’s sin, world was not meant to be this way). Medical data says that labor and the accompanying hormones are good for the baby. So one person’s suffering is another’s good. Or perhaps he means a world where he does not suffer?

    No death? well, the world was created without death, but Adam messed that one up.
    No illness prior to death? Or old age? That too was part of the original nature of the world, but the avos requested that there should be warning before one dies, hence old age and illness.
    No premature death/painful death/murder? Doesn’t that have to do with our actions?
    Much of the suffering we go through is because of other people’s actions. That is a consequence of the fact that people have bechira, and Hashem allows them to act through that bechira. So perhaps the man’s problem is why there is bechira to do bad, but that is a different discussion.

    His arguments are flawed. Suffering does not mean Hashem is cruel, Chas V’shalom, or that the world was supposed to have been created that way. so his conclusion that it must mean there is no G-d, chas v’shalom, is wrong. Methinks he left not for an intellectual reason, but out of emotional pain, and intellectual answers will not make him change his mind.

    #1426384

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @mentch1 the world wasnt create in order for Hashem to give – if He had to give and needed to create us in order to give, than He wouldn’t be perfect cvs.

    Rather, once He wanted to create, since He is Tov, and teva hatov lheitiv, Ain ra yored min hashomayim, only good. Even harsh punishments are good – just we prefer to see the good ourselves.That’s the difference between chessed and gevura.

    As far as how is it worth it for us? Sometimes, now, we don’t appreciate the suffering, hence noach lo ladam.. But when moshiach comes, we will really see the full purpose of the distressing and what it accomplished, and will tell Hashem oidcha ki anafta bi.

    #1426527

    GAON
    Participant

    Men,
    “Hashem has a need to give”
    Chas Ml’hazkir – the very word and concept of “need” (as explained in all sforim) pertains only for mortals…

    #1427251

    ืกืคืจ ื”ื‘ืจื™ืช on how it’s impossible to understand the ื’ืžืจื of ื ื•ื— ืœื• ืœืื“ื the way some here have mentioned:

    #1428322

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I’ve got my rational answer now, thanks for all your help and input :

    Of course Hashem could have made an alternate system. But that alternate system would be completely different from without the concept of pain / suffering. It wouldn’t include Allot of things that we like that go with this system such as bad actions /people getting punished, much of kindness, work ethic / lfum tzaara agra. In fact, being that we were created in this system, we couldn’t imagine life outside it!

    So instead of wishing for something you don’t even know What you’re wishing for,enjoy all there is from this system, and there is much to enjoy.

    As far as the hard times which aren’t fun, when we know the full picture we will appreciate that too.

    Hard times push people to look deep inside and bring out their greatest strengths and previously untapped potential. There is much resultant good when dealt with correctly.

    In fact, when moshiach comes, we are promised that we will see the full picture and then thank Hashem for all the hard times.

    Until then, let’s not waste life because we have a question. We were given a precious little window of time to specs here and make a difference – so let’s be sure to use it!

    Lchaim! A freilichen Chanukah!

    #1428325

    GAON
    Participant

    Daas,

    I came across the following ื™ืขืจื•ืช ื“ื‘ืฉ ืœืจื‘ื™ ืจ’ ื™ื”ื•ื ืชืŸ ืื™ื™ื‘ื™ืฉื™ืฅ
    At the end of Drush ื˜ื–:

    ื•ืœื›ืŸ ืขืœื™ื ื• ืœื”ื›ื™ืŸ ืขืฆืžื™ื ื• ื‘ืชืฉื•ื‘ื” ื•ืชืคืœื” ื›ื™ ื›ืœ ืžื” ื“ืขื‘ื™ื“ ื”’ ืœื˜ื‘ ืขื‘ื™ื“
    ื›ืืฉืจ ืืžืจื• |ืขื™ืจื•ื‘ื™ืŸ ื™”ื’ ืข”ื‘| ื ืžื ื• ื•ื’ืžืจื• ื˜ื•ื‘ ืœื• ืฉืœื ื ื‘ืจื ืžืฉื ื‘ืจื ื•ืขื›ืฉื™ื• ืฉื ื‘ืจื ื™ืคืฉืคืฉ ื‘ืžืขืฉื™ื•

    ื•ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ืชืžื•ื” ื›ื™ ืœืค”ื– ื ืžืฆืืช ื‘ืจื™ืืช ืื“ื ืœืจืขืชื• ื—”ื• ืœืคื•ืขืœ ื˜ื•ื‘ ืฉื™ืคืขืœ
    ?! ืจืข ื•ื”ืื™ืš ื ื‘ืจืš ืขืœ ืฉื™ืฆืจ ืืช ื”ืื“ื ื‘ื—ื›ืžื” ืื ืœื”ืจืข ืœื•

    ืื‘ืœ ื”ืขื ื™ืŸ ื›ืš ื”ื•ื, ื›ื™ ื‘ื”ื ืคืœื™ื’ื™ ืื ื ืฉืžืชื• ืฉืœ ืื“ื ื™ื•ืจื“ืช ื‘ืจืฆื•ืŸ ืœื’ื•ืฃ ื”ืขื›ื•ืจ ืื• ื‘ืขืœ ื›ืจื—ื•, ื›ื™ ืื™ื ื ื” ื™ื•ื“ืขืช ื›ืœ ื”ืขืชื™ื“ื•ืช ื•ืœื ืžืฆืื” ื—ืงืจ ืืœื”ื•ืช ืขืœ ื‘ื•ืจื™ื” ื•ื˜ื•ื‘ ืœื” ืฉืœื ื ื‘ืจืื” ืื‘ืœ ื”ืงื‘”ื” ื”ื•ื ื™ื•ื“ืข ืฉื”ื•ื ืœื˜ื•ื‘ื” ื”ื•ื ื‘ื•ืจืื” ื•ื›ื•ืคื” ืœื ืฉืžื” ืœื™ืœืš ื‘ื–ื” ื”ืขื•ืœื ื•ื›ืžืืžืจื |ืื‘ื•ืช ืกื•ืค”ื“| ื‘ืขืœ ื›ืจื—ืš ืืชื” ื ื•ืœื“

    ื•ื–ื•ื”ื™ื ื”ื›ื•ื ื” ืฉื ื—ืœืงื• ื›ืช ืื—ืช ืกื•ื‘ืจื™ื ืฉื”ื ืฉืžื” ื”ื•ืœื›ืช ื‘ืื”ื‘ื” ื•ืจืฆื•ืŸ ืœื–ื” ื”ืขื•ืœื ื•ื›ืช ืฉื ื™ื” ืกื‘ื™ืจื ืœื™ื” ื ื•ื— ืœื” ืฉืœื ื ื‘ืจืื” ืžืฉื ื‘ืจืื” ื•ืœื“ืขืชื ืœื ื”ื™ืชื” ืžืกื›ื™ืžื” ืœื”ื‘ืจื ืื‘ืœ ืžื” ื ืคืงื ืžื™ื ื” ื‘ื“ืขืชื” ื”ืงื‘”ื” ื”ื•ื ืžื›ืจื™ื— ื›ื™ ื”ื•ื ื™ื•ื“ืข ืฉื”ื•ื ืœื˜ื•ื‘ืชื” ื•ื”ื˜ื™ื‘ ืœื” ื‘ื–ื”

    ืœื›ืŸ ืขื›ืฉื™ื• ืฉื ื‘ืจื ื™ืคืฉืคืฉ ื‘ืžืขืฉื™ื• ืœืขืฉื•ืช ื ื—ืช ืœืงื•ื ื• ื•ืื•ืœื™ ื™ืจื—ื ื”’ ืœื ื—ืžื ื• ื‘ื ื—ืžืช ืฆื™ื•ืŸ ื•ื™ื‘ื•ืœืข ื”ืžื•ืช ืœื ืฆื— ื•ื‘ื ืœืฆื™ื•ืŸ ื’ื•ืืœ ืืžืŸ ื•ืืžืŸ

    #1439073

    re: question Hashem can do anything, and could have created the world however He wanted. He chose to create it in a way that people suffer.

    So in this mans mind, that leaves him two options : Hashem is bad or cruel cvs. Or there is no G-d. He goes with the latter.

    My answer is really emuna based.

    Anyone have a good intellectual answer, not emuna based?

    Ask him- if everything was good then what would be the point in life?

    #1440117

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Ask him- if everything was good then what would be the point in life?”

    To grow from strength to strength- are you saying people should suffer so I can feel good it’s not me!? I’m all for moshiach times when things will be all good.

    #1440133

    are you saying people should suffer so I can feel good itโ€™s not me!?

    Where do you see that in GCL’s post?

    #1440139

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I’m trying to understand why he would think that there is no point to life without suffering

    #1440145

    Okay, but you made up a ridiculous explanation for what he/she meant.

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