Question I don’t know the answer to :) 🤔

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    Pain is nessesary, suffering is optional.


    @daasyochid that may not have been what he meant but I was trying to show that may not hold water because we will all be very happy to be in a Geula state with no pain…

    @avrammd it took me some time but I looked up the answer to your question. The answer is that Hashem wanted the world to descend to a low level so that we could thereby have a yerida ltzorech aliya, and reach an even higher level by moshiach than Adam before the chet.

    However, Adam did not need to be the one to bring the world down. Harbe shluchim lamakom. (Similar as to why the mitzrim were punished when Hashem declared vaavadum vinu osam arba meios shana.) since with his bechira he chose to do the wrong thing, he was held accountable.


    Just for everyone’s information, I also got some answers to questions posted on the other thread, such as questions on the Rambam etc. and I thank you for that, as it was quite informative for me. However, since that thread was closed down after some people got upset and yelled at the mods, which I completely disagree with, it looks like I won’t be able to answer them:(

    Anyhow, at that point, it looked like most people did not want to hear a source because the whole thing sounded unconventional, and at the end of the thread there were mostly just emotional responses instead of a learned give and take of Torah sources.

    Anyhow its really not the main thing. But just know there are answers:)


    Are you referring to the menorah thread?


    No I tried replying on that one but my post wasn’t approved and I respect that, as part of my post was directed towards some attitude

    Lilmod Ulelamaid

    Chabadshlucha – I just read this thread for the first time. I read your OP, and skimmed through the answers.

    It seems to me that many of the posters may have been negating the validity of the question. However, I heard the same idea that I think he (and you) are expressing from a well-known Talmid Chacham.

    Basically, there are many reasons that can be given for suffering (many of which were given in above posts, I think). These reasons have to do with why it is good for us. But we are still left with the question: Why did Hashem create a system in which we can only gain those things through suffering? Hashem created the rules of (human)nature – He could have created those rules differently in the first place!

    The answer is that there is no answer that we can possibly understand, since we ourselves are also within the system, so we can only answer questions from within the system – we can’t answer questions that precede the system (and therefore are outside the system).

    In terms of how to satisfy the man, you can tell him this and then add: If you need to take your infant to get shots, how can you explain to an infant why you are handing him over to someone who is going to torture him and stick needles in him if you love him?


    I think your last paragraph is better than your second-to-last paragraph.
    That is, I’m unsure of this “system” concept, but the notion that there
    are things beyond our understanding is fine.


    @lilmod +1 for that example – although I would use it to Epson different point, that Hashem’s Wisdom is way way beyond us and He does have our best interests in mind when He chose this system out of the myriad options


    The Chazon Ish ones explained when asked about the Holocaust – it is as if an ignorant peasant who walks into a hospitals operating room and sees a team of doctors operating heart surgery – he starts shouting “murderers savages”! Why are you cutting up that person’s body etc! In his ignoramus mind he can not see the big picture’ that is is all for the sake of saving the persons life.

    Same is with the Holocaust, we are so far from seeing the big picture that all we see is in hindsight… There will be day when we will all agree and clearly see how each and every action was for the good.


    But we don’t put ignorant peasants in hospital operating rooms to observe.


    @Mods how do i get a pic on here? I have some stuff for avrammd


    @avrammd I wish I could upload you the images but I don’t know how. In any event, the source is a medrash which says chet etz hadaas was a set up because otherwise it wouldn’t say the halachos of tumas mes in the Torah which was there already then, if Hashem really planned to have a perfect world with no death etc.

    The medrash brings an example of a man who gets a get written up for his wife and brings it home. He schemes how to give it to her. He tells her to pour him a cup of water. When she does he says, I’m divorcing you. Here’s the get. She asked him why and he tells her because the water was lukewarm. She protests that it was a set up. He knew that she would pour him lukewarm water so that was just an excuse and couldn’t be valid because he already had the get written up.

    This is what the posuk Norah alila al bnei Adam is referring to.


    “the source is a medrash which says chet etz hadaas was a set up ”

    Where exactly is the Midrash? I think there are many diff pshatim how to interpret the Midrash, and as I have posted earlier (i will re-post)

    Even the Chabad Seforim do not say so, at least the Alte Rebbe in Torah Ohr, he says the following in Parshas Breshis he explains the issue how the “Birur Ra” would have been without the Chet (the issue in concern is how is there an inyan of “birur Nitzozos/Klipos without Chet in the world)” :

    “. וע”ד שהיה בזמן שבהמ”ק היה קיים שהרי ארז”ל לא גלו ישראל אלא כדי שיתוספו עליהם גרים דהיינו להעלות נצוצות ומה היה נעשה אם לא חטאו ולא היו גולים. אלא ע”כ צ”ל שאז היו נכללים הנצוצות ממילא כנר בפני האבוקה כמו נעמה העמונית וכן כל העמים באו לשמוע חכמת שלמה וכמ”ש במלכת שבא כו’. והיינו לפי שאז היה אבוקה גדולה עד”מ ע”כ ממילא מתכללים בה הנצוצות ואם היה נמשך בהמ”ק כן יותר היו כולם מתבררים עד”ז וכמ”ש לע”ל (צפניה ג’) אז אהפוך אל עמים שפה ברורה כו’. והלכו גוים לאורך כו’.

    וכך היה ענין האדם כשלא היה חוטא שהיה כולו קדוש כי גם גופו נלקח ממקום המזבח וממנו נעשו רמ”ח אבריו בלול בשמן כו’ והיה עומד בג”ע ושם היה מוסיף אורות וממילא היו הקליפות כלים ע”י שהיו הנצוצי קדושה כלים מהם אבל הדבר היה שלא ע”י מלחמה כו’. משא”כ אחר שחטא אזי צ”ל הבירורים ע”י עבודה ומלחמה שעת צלותא שעת קרבא כנ”ל וצריך לירד אל מקום הקליפות ושם יבררם וזהו את האדמה אשר לקח משם

    The above clearly indicates that the world was original meant to be without the Chet of the Etz haDaas…


    If someone can tell me how to upload images that would be helpful as I can get you the whole thing.

    At any rate it lists tanchuma vayeshev 4


    In any case, they say the pshat is the other way around that even in the case of מיתה it was still the act of man that instigated it. See sefer עקידה vaYeshev 28.

    It basically seems like another version of the ידיעה ובחירה question as well.

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