December 27, 2011 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #601333
ok – so a frum family lives in a two family house and the upstairs neighbors are muslim. their married daughter who lives with them just had a baby. she proudly showed the new baby to the frum family. they seem to be basically nice ppl. is it ok to buy a baby gift for them?December 27, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #841333TheGoqParticipant
It is always right to be a good neighbor regardless of who those neighbors are i think it would be a very nice gesture.December 27, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #841334aries2756Participant
Why not?December 27, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #841335oomisParticipant
If they are good neighbors, BE a good neighbor. Would you buy it if they were Christians? it doesn’t have to be an expensive gift, just a little tchotchkeh.December 27, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #841336soliekMember
why notDecember 27, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #841337real-briskerMember
Why start with muslim, ask if it is muttar to give a regular goy.December 27, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #841338JotharMember
Yes. What’s the controversy?December 27, 2011 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #841339BowwowParticipant
why not?December 27, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #841340
There is no Issur.December 27, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #841341midwesternerParticipant
Why not? Because there is an issur D’oraisa of lo sechanem-Lo siten lahem matnas chinam. I know that this din d’oraisa is difficult for many people to reconcile with political correctness, but it remains the din.
There are perhaps ways to define chinam, which would allow this, though. Especially if they are neighbors with whom you have a relationship. Then it is not chinam, but rather to maintain that relationship.December 27, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #841342yitzchokmParticipant
He’s asking because of lo sechnafDecember 27, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #841343
thanks everyone – just wanted to make sure. i don’t want to do the wrong thing. i thought ppl might say “what – are you crazy? giving a gift to a muslem?” i thought i’d get real flack for that. thanks for the support.December 27, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #841344☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
It hasn’t gotten controversial yet. Should I start by referring to the issur of lo s’caneim? 🙂
(Actually, it doesn’t apply here.)December 27, 2011 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #841345HealthParticipant
The assumption that this is controversial is absurd. Why do we make dealing with goyim -something “controversial”?
No one taught you how to deal with neighbors? If you are friendly -you can acknowledge that friendship -if not, not!December 27, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #841346babygooseParticipant
yeserrie!! it’s surely the right thing to do!December 27, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #841347yid.periodMember
opportunity to make a kiddush Hashem or not to… should you?December 27, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #841348ToiParticipant
if theyll act more cordially towards you its for sure muttar.December 27, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #841349mommamia22Participant
IMHO, when a neighbor in such close proximity has a celebratory event, to do nothing would be rude/callous and maybe even a chilul H’.December 27, 2011 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #841350
Why not? Because there is an Issur in the Torah “Lo sechanain”. I don’t know its full implications in halachah (I’m not a halachaic technician), but it certainly is an important issue. Let any of the resident Halachaic professors respond. Or a LOR.December 27, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #841351HaKatanParticipant
It sounds like a question of whether it is an issue of lo sichanem or darkei shalom. I’d imagine a small gift would fall under the latter, but ASK YOUR LOR.December 27, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #841352
Again – it’s a Shaila for Halachah responders, this should not be judged by feelings, emotions. Controversial – yes, in halacha, others (cute little me in the lead) should stay out.
Gemutlichkeit, goodwill, etiquette fly out the window in the face of halacha. Of course one must use proper judgement how to fulfill HaShem’s ratzon with the least slight to another being, but mitzvha and aveira considerations take precedence.December 27, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #841353HaLeiViParticipant
If it is expected then buy it.December 27, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #841354ZosHaTorahParticipant
If they are Muslim, then they are monotheists. What’s the kasha?December 27, 2011 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #841355apushatayidParticipant
why not.December 27, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #841356shmoolik 1Participant
if you will need their help as “shabos goy” in the future it is worth your while to neighborly now, besides lo sechanain is for 7 amim in eretz yisrael not golusDecember 27, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #841357
Shmoolik: That is what the Kitzur S”A brings down which is presumably actually the Minhag nowadays. How that came to be I don’t know as it is a very minority Shittah.December 27, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #841358JotharMember
mods, please let link thru- this case is clearly permitted:December 27, 2011 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #841359
Not a problem, and as mommamia said, it would be rude not to.
Here is the halacha: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9146&st=&pgnum=149
It is clear that if you know the person you are allowed to give him a gift, because it is never called “free” when you know the person.
(By the way, the issur of Lo Sechaneim – pashtus – applies equally to all non-Jews except one who is a ger toshav.)December 27, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #841360Shticky GuyParticipant
My LOR has said in the past that where you stand to gain from it in whatever way then its muttar because ultimately you’re not doing it for nothing or for them but for yourself. Anyway, it would probably be muttar mipnei darkei shalom in this case. People forget that. Avrohom Avinu davened for rachmanus for goyim reshaim gemurim of sedom and amorah because they were human beings and maasei hashem!
You did right to ask. Only the place of your question (ie here) was wrong.December 27, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #841361old manParticipant
Give them a gift, it’s a nice thing to do.December 27, 2011 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #841362oomisParticipant
It has nothing to do with giving a gift chinam. They had a baby, there is a reason to gift them. It is nice to acknowledge their joyous occasion. You are not trying to bribe them or buy their good graces. You are simply being a real mensch.December 27, 2011 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #841363☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The fact that they had a baby does not make it muttar. if not for other factors (darchei shalom) it would still be called chinam.December 27, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #841364
How could you give a goy a gift in a way that it WOULD qualify as “matnas chinam”? I mean, isn’t the point of giving gifts to neighbors, employees, etc. to increase mutual good will – from which all parties benefit, no?December 27, 2011 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #841365
I see most ppl are saying it’s ok. I will ask my LOR though. The reason we would be giving it is to make a Kiddush Hashem (and avoid a chilul Hashem if we don’t). Also we figure it’s always a good idea to be on their good side.December 27, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #841366
Oomis – the opposite; if we stand to gain then it’s not chinam. Otherwise it is.December 27, 2011 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #841367midwesternerParticipant
Kiddush Hashem and Chillul Hashem are not based on what is feel good according to the swiftly changing morals of the day. Doing Retzin Hashem brings Kiddush Hashem. Doing the opposite brings Chillul Hashem.
I have already stated my opinion that it is likely muttar. But not because its a Kiddush Hashem cuz they had a baby. Rather that since it is not chinam, as defined by halacha, so there is no violation.
People sometimes have a hard time defining chinam in another context as well. That would be sinas chinam. There are people out there who, when challenged that their behavior/philosophy is incorrect, will respond: SINAS CHINAM! Rather than address the substance of the challenge. Fighting dei’os kozvos is not chinam.December 27, 2011 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #841368tahiniMember
Good luck nottelling, seems a lovely kind gesture to welcome their new baby, not unusual at all. Seen before friendly relations between neighbours creating a true Kiddush Hashem. Very nice.December 27, 2011 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #841369
Some random person asks you for a dollar to buy a lottery ticket. Basically a situation where you do not know the person, and there will also be no negative repercussions by you saying no (because no one would expect you to say yes).December 27, 2011 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #841370ED IT ORParticipant
if you give a present you will be making a massive kiddush hashem, it makes no difference what or who your neighbour is, I’m sure they will never five you anything back so you have no problem of
???? ????? ????December 28, 2011 12:12 am at 12:12 am #841371
Does that include giving stam charity to goyim?December 28, 2011 12:33 am at 12:33 am #841372
OOM: No, that’s a Mefurash Mishnah in Gittin that it’s okay.December 28, 2011 12:37 am at 12:37 am #841373
The next halacha in Shulchan Aruch reads (see above link):
???? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????
“It is permitted to support their poor, to visit their sick, to bury their dead, to eulogize them, and to console their mourners, because of ‘ways of peace’.”December 28, 2011 12:45 am at 12:45 am #841374hudiParticipant
There is a halacha against giving gifts to non-jews. However, I believe it is allowed if you will benefit from giving the gift. Maintaining a good relationship is a benefit.December 28, 2011 12:49 am at 12:49 am #841375popa_bar_abbaParticipant
This is a plain halacha shaila. I don’t know the halacha.December 28, 2011 12:51 am at 12:51 am #841376
Hmm. Thanks.December 28, 2011 6:30 am at 6:30 am #841377hello5Member
Alts what do u want to give itDecember 28, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #841378BTGuyParticipant
Sure, if they are friendly, although it may be a bit surprising, be friendly back. Arent we suppose to look for that opportunity?December 28, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #841379matsav20Member
why not? i think there is no problemDecember 28, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #841380HealthParticipant
I just thought of something -only treat them nice and buy them things if you truly have a relationship and know them well.
Muslims are notorious for being two-faced! They say that they have learnt Hachnosos Orchim from Avruhum Aveinu. So they will invite a Jew into their home and give you the most respect while you are there, but as soon as you step out of their door they will literally “stab you in the back”!December 28, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #841381BTGuyParticipant
So basically, your answer is to not be friendly since these muslims are just waiting to literally stab a Jew in the back, chas v’shalom.
I am no fan of arab muslims, but I have heard more than one story from Israelis about arabs they were friendly with and worked with in Israel.
My parents, too, have this egyptian friend who was their car salesperson. This guy is still friendly with them over the years and brings over gifts and stuff from egypt and calls kibbitzes with them. I dont get why either one of them bother, but its true.
I guess if these neighbors are friendly and showing their baby, for the frum neighbors to get a little baby gift would be a huge kiddish Hashem.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.