July 24, 2023 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #2210666
i figured why not keep litvaks busy about there own “minhagim”
1) reb chaim kanievski writes in his sefer אורחות יושר that is is forbitten to use an electric shaver, and his father held this way and the chazon ish and rav shach.
2) shulchan aruch says that before davening, you need to forget about everything on your mind, contemplate about the greatness of hashem, have kavana you are speaking to hashem etc. reb chaim writes in his sefer al harambam (second siman there) that if you dont have kavana your speaking to hashem when saying a few words its as if you skipped those words of davening.
3) in hilchos talmud torah it says you should first learn kol hatorah kolah with the reasons biderech kitzara, then start comparing things – “pilpul” etc. (many litvishe gedolim spoke against the way the yeshivas learn today)
4) whats this idea of mncha ketzara – skipping chazaras hashatz?
thats all the time i have now
(i know some will answer, that thats “our minhag/ mesora”, ok so why do you guys criticize chabad (for just believing in gemaras, tzadikim)July 24, 2023 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #2210668
If you want a serious answer, I’ll be happy to provide, but it seems that you’re asking from animosity. Still, I’ll be dan lekaf zchus, but either way the questions are valid regardless of your intention, and people might be interested to know about the issues you raise.
Re, chazaras hashatz; rav yaakov kaminetzky said that chazaras hashatz was instituted in a beis hakneses, where amei haaretz would daven together with chaverim. But in a beis medrash, no amei haaretz would daven, so there was never a full takanah of chaz”hash…still we do hoicher kedushah to be yotzei. That, together with the cheshbon of bitul Torah was bis justification for the minhag – in his Yeshiva, however, we did not make hoicher kedushah.
Re, hilchos talmud torah; there were different shitos in the rishonim and achronim in general about derech halimud, and what the yeshivos do is more about results than about ideology. It works for our generation, and that’s the main thing.July 24, 2023 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2210669
Re, shavers; the yeshivos follow rav moshe feinstein. He was the preeminent posek in America, and Americans are not beholden to every other gadol’s psak.July 24, 2023 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2210670
Re, kavanah; this is precisely why briskers daven fast, in order to not be masiach daas. In ger they have a similar approach, but vriskers take a very long time for krias shema, משא”כ ger.July 24, 2023 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #2210673
Didn’t the Chofetz Chaim pasken you can’t shave your beard off?July 24, 2023 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #2210674
While I don’t consider myself “yeshivish”, I’ll still attempt to answer these:
1) There is a machlokes regarding shaving. R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l, who was considered the undisputed gadol hador in the US (except for by Chabad), held that an electric shaver is permissible.
2) Ok, so what? Does anyone really think that the way they daven is 100% correct? Do you think that learning chassidus, then davening after the zman makes your davening any better? I think we all realize that the davening of the average person leaves a lot to be desired. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t daven at all. We do our best, however flawed that may be.
3) Again, this is obviously a machlokes. There are yeshivos that learn in different ways, each according to its own leadership. So what exactly is your point?
4) R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky said that the reason is because chazaras hashatz was instituted for amei haaretz. Since in yeshivos they are not am haratzim, there is really no need for chazaras hashatz at all. However, since we don’t want to do away with it entirely, as it’s the minhag Yisrael, they do a short one. I will note that not all yeshivos do this. When I learned in Darchei Torah, they did NOT daven a short Mincha. R’ Bender once told me he had asked R’ Elya Svei (I think that’s who it was) when he started the Mesivta, and was told not to do it.
R’ Aharon Kotler had paskened that in Lakewood they daven a short Mincha, except on Chanukah and Purim, since there is a mitzvah of pirsumei nisah, and repeating Al haNisim fulfilled this.July 24, 2023 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #2210686
Da, interesting that we both quoted rav yaakov; it appears we can agree on some things.July 24, 2023 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #2210688
1) Rabbi Kanievsky is not the Litvish equivalent of the Rebbe. America has its own poskim.
2) Are you suggesting this is a bad thing to have kavana while davening? I don’t see your point.
3) We’re at the mercy of what the yeshivos decide to do. Most American yeshivas (not all) tend to follow some variation of the Slabodka derech halimud. Nonetheless, most places have both a seder b’iyun and b’kius. Are you suggesting people should do away in learning b’iyun altogether?
4) Not without controversy even within the Litvish community. Many if not most Yeshivos don’t do this, but it’s popular in Chofetz Chaim communities which is what many people see.
“i know some will answer, that thats “our minhag/ mesora”, ok so why do you guys criticize chabad”
Because Ashkenaz and Sphard are real mesoras based on poskim of previous generations. Chabad is an invented mesora based on hashkafa and the whims of its Rebbes. I know you were probably baiting one of us to say this, but why shouldn’t we? It’s just the historical reality.July 25, 2023 4:07 am at 4:07 am #2210700HaLeiViParticipant
UJM, the Chofetz Chaim was against using a razor. That’s all. The whole Kuntres was about the actual Issur.
I am aware that his Kuntres is widely mentioned, but not quoted, as proof of his disparaging shaving, but that’s not what it is. In fact, right at the beginning he wonders — in a footnote — why it is that we don’t trim beards anymore and he gives two reasons.July 25, 2023 7:18 am at 7:18 am #2210705Menachem ShmeiParticipant
I think this thread is extremely disrespectful and lekanter.
The fact that others may write in this style about Chabad is not a reason to descend to this level.
However, I am wondering about a statement by Neville:
“Because Ashkenaz and Sphard are real mesoras based on poskim of previous generations.”
Really? Is it the Ashkenazi mesorah for over 200 years ago to shave their beards?
When Reb Moshe (who is also accepted by Chabad as major posek, although we don’t follow all his psakim, just as Litvishers don’t) rules a chidush, you accept this as Ashkenazi mesorah for generations.
Yet you mock (in disgusting fashion) the psakim and minhagim of 200 years of the holy Chabad rebbes.
Richman litzlan that we live in a generation that people open their mouths in such a manner.
מסימני משיח – חוצפה יסגיJuly 25, 2023 8:54 am at 8:54 am #2210751
Menachem, there is no Mesorah specifically to shave. For a long time, there was no halachic way to fully shave. There is a Yerushalmi that mentions that is was common to trim beards using scissors.
Jews in Europe generally followed the customs of the country they were in. When the custom was to fully shave, they used chemical depilatories for it. When electric shavers were introduced in the 1900s, it presented a question of whether they are halachically allowed or not. R’ Moshe ruled that they are permissible.
That said, it was not accepted by everyone that fully removing your beard is allowed. The Tzemach Tzedek held that it violates the issur of a man appearing as a woman. The Shulchan Aruch disagreed, and held that this issur relating to hair meant that a man shouldn’t shave hair from body parts that women usually do, such as underarms.
Regarding this last point, I will note that I once had a conversation with R’ Bender about the issur of Lo Silbash. I questioned whether it changes with the times and societal norms – for example, nowadays, it is common for women to wear pants (the issur isn’t limited to what frum Jewish women wear!). So would it still be assur for a woman to wear pants due to this issue? He told me that no, it is not considered a man’s garment anymore. He said the first women to wear pants, if they were Jewish, did violate the issur, but once it became common for women to wear pants, it’s not prohibited due to this issue. The issue of tznius is a different problem, which he said is a major issue with pants. However, he said that if there were pants that were completely tznius, it would not be a problem for a woman to wear them.
I’d suggest that the same reasoning applies to shaving, and even according to the Shulchan Aruch’s view. Nowadays it’s completely normal for men to shave their beards completely, and even to remove hair from other body parts. Since this is the societal norm now, it’s possible that the issur of appearing like a woman no longer applies to this area.July 25, 2023 9:33 am at 9:33 am #2210761Shimon NodelParticipant
Reb Moshe held that it’s asur gamur to use a shaver. He never said it’s mutar, rather he said that it’s not the same level isur as a razorJuly 25, 2023 9:42 am at 9:42 am #2210772yeshivaguy45Participant
It sounds like the OP is bored and trying to create some hock.
However, just to let everyone know, regarding short chazara hashatz, it’s actually a halacha in Shulchan Aruch and the mishna berura towards the end of chelek 1 (I can’t remember which siman offhand but I’ll try to look it up later). The Shulchan Aruch says b’shaas hadchak the chazzan can start shemone esrei out loud and the congregation can start shemone esrei quietly along with the chazzan, word for word. After Kedusha, everyone continues quietly. The mishna berura writes if it’s not such a shas hadchak, the congregation can start quietly.July 25, 2023 11:11 am at 11:11 am #2210817
“Is it the Ashkenazi mesorah for over 200 years ago to shave their beards?”
Yes, trimming beards is the long-standing halacha. We have the technology to trim extremely close today; if they’d had the ability 1000 years ago, they would have used it too.July 25, 2023 11:43 am at 11:43 am #2210840
There were minhagim to not have beards, especially among bochurim; this was the case in Italy, as I’ve heard from Rav Belsky.
Most gedolim were unhappy with litvishe bochurim shaving in Europe, but once it became widespread, the majority had no issue with it going forward, with some even prohibiting bochurim from having beards due to gaavah, as their peers didn’t.July 25, 2023 11:43 am at 11:43 am #2210837yeshivaguy45Participant
Sorry I pressed submit before I finished my post. That last sentence should have said
“The mishna berura writes if it’s not such a shas hadchak, the congregation can start quietly after Kedusha.”July 26, 2023 10:16 am at 10:16 am #2211048yankel berelParticipant
This thread is a fig leaf intended to cover
1] for close to neo notsri belief systems
2] for close to neo notsri personal veneration
3] for treating ikarei emuna like socks – to be changed and discarded when convenient .
None of the minhagim or kulot of the yeshiva world , irrespective whether they do have merit, or are lacking merit , are touching any of the above issues .
So let the objective reader judge for himself – is the intended cover – a cover ?
Or only a “see through cover” , essentially uncovering those 3 problematic issues ?July 26, 2023 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2211064IshpurimParticipant
The koach of heter was expressed by Reb Hersh Pesach Frank, the Rav of Yerushalayim zal. We will not forget . Also, many rabbonim at Yitzchak Elchanan permitted, among them Harav Paleyeff who was a Slutzker and gave shiur from 1920-1966. RHPF was a Telzer.July 26, 2023 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2211296
“However, he said that if there were pants that were completely tznius, it would not be a problem for a woman to wear them.”
Nobody actually seems to posken this way; I think your rav was probably talking in a purely academic sense. Pants do exist that cover everything they need to and are very loose-fitting, but there’s still a das yehudis issue (not a beged ish issue).July 26, 2023 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #2211143smerelParticipant
While I could answer all the issues raised by the OP, I won’t. Not only that I will concede that there is some merit and truth behind what is being said there. I’ll even take it a step a further and acknowledge that there is truth and merit in some of the other criticism of the Yeshiva World not mentioned in the OP.
In fact whatever group you are part of you should realize that there is probably some truth behind the criticism other groups have of yours that you shouldn’t just ignore or assume they are wrong because you and your leaders know better.
Now back to Chabad. As a secular historian discussing the frum world of the 20th century put it. Chabad in the 1950s was unique among the frum groups that they were the only group who was only answerable to their rebbe and was willing to ignore the VEHEMENT opposition of other frum groups. This in turn led to serious problems among the movement which by the end of the century had raised their rebbe almost to the point of deification (R’L) L’havidil Rav Hutner in the 1950s also predicted where Chabad was heading because of the above assessment. I mention a secular historian only because he would be thought of as more neutral.
There is what to complain about Chabad even without the messianic and borderline deification of the rebbe. But admittedly when it comes to that you can brush it off by saying that other groups also have what to criticize, complain and say they are doing the wrong thing about. Those things however don’t push anyone behind the pale of Orthodox Judaism. The messianism and borderline deification of the rebbe R’L do. It’s absolutely unacceptable. It’s not a question of relying on non mainstream shittos in halacha or questionable haskafa . It’s a question of the Ikerey Emunah and Avodah Zora R’L. You just can’t ignore the vehement opposition of so much of Klal Yisroel when it comes to a thing like that.July 26, 2023 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #2211345ElyParticipant
I find these questions entertaining. In general in the Litvish world specific halakhic questions are decided because the strength of the arguments, in conjunction with the Gadol who took achriyus for them.
So in regards to shaving, the fact that the chazon ish felt it is assur doesn’t make it assur. The heter of כעין תער as explained by Rav Moshe is compelling, and therefore accepted by the American poskim.
Now can we get an explanation why it’s ok to abrogate the prohibition of eating before shacharis?July 26, 2023 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2211354
Wait! Wait! The Litvaks built their yeshivos on the premise that by the time their sons are bar mitzva they would have completed most of chumash with rashi as well as the mishna. I could go on, but the point is that knowing Kol Hatorah Kula was a given by the Litvaks. Also learning slow isn’t an issue.
Rav Chaim didn’t actually write what the OP claimed. The Litvaks considered those that forbade shavers to be completely wrong on the issue. It’s not worth debating because all the militant ignorami come out with their nonsense. If you like your beard you can keep it. I’m taking it away from you.
Being at your gemara before dawn is an excellent way to be prepared for davening. Litvaks have a full chazaros hashatz at their workplaces. I know several Litvaks that do not leave their gemara to daven mincha with a minyan. If no minyan shows up, they daven alone.
I would like to point out, that the OP has not posted since. It’s not about Chabad as much as his own thin skin. Every group has their issues. Okay, outsiders don’t get Chabad. They are not expected to. They measure Chabad by their own standards, not Chabad’s standards. Why is it a big deal to you if you claim to only know Chabad?July 26, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2211394
I’m not taking away anyone’s beard. None of my posts are reliable. I keep forgetting words.July 26, 2023 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #2211408yungermanSParticipant
Everyone is invited to read the sefer in English called
“Rite (Minhag) and Reason”
It’s a sefer filled with hundreds of all the minhagim in klal yisroel and the reason behind each one. If you read it then you will clearly know that nothing was just made up or stupid or because a Rebba just decided to do it etc…..
Then you won’t have any more questions on the minhagim in klal yisroel no matter what kind of yid you are from Aschkenaz to Syrian Jews as Sefardim to Israelis etc…..July 28, 2023 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2211755Avram in MDParticipant
“Really? Is it the Ashkenazi mesorah for over 200 years ago to shave their beards? When Reb Moshe … rules a chidush, you accept this as Ashkenazi mesorah for generations.”
The Ashkenazi mesora is that trimming beards is ok. Rav Moshe ruled that electric “shavers” are equivalent to very short trimming, not shaving/destroying the beard. So yes, we feel the “chidush” is in line with our mesora. It’s not like electric shavers existed 200 years ago, and Rav Moshe upended generations of rulings on electric shavers. And even if he did, he would have provided his reasoning in a manner so well explained that one could follow the chain of the mesora up to the chidush.
“Yet you mock (in disgusting fashion) the psakim and minhagim of 200 years of the holy Chabad rebbes.”
I do not know what Neville ChaimBerlin was referring to with his comment, but I didn’t feel like he was “mocking”. And honestly that statement was not nice, but it pales in comparison to having fellow Jews serve as the boogeymen of your stories – to ingest enmity as a part of your movement’s hashkafa.July 28, 2023 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #2211754Avram in MDParticipant
“i figured why not keep litvaks busy about there own “minhagim””
Though I may have missed stuff, the debates here have largely not been about “minhagim”. The closest I’ve seen was on another thread with AviraDeArah regarding sleeping in the sukkah. Even that debate wasn’t about actual practice, however, as many Litvaks and other Jews also do not sleep in the sukkah because of discomfort. That debate was about Chabad’s removing the idea of sleeping in the sukkah completely. Rather the debates are more about hashkafa and beliefs, some of which may manifest themselves into certain practices.
“(i know some will answer, that thats “our minhag/ mesora”, ok so why do you guys criticize chabad (for just believing in gemaras, tzadikim) “
I hope you noticed that, despite the insulting premise of your questions, you received unequivocal and non-defensive answers. Challenges and debates are not the same thing as hatred and persecution.July 28, 2023 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #2211769
Menachem, I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. 200 years isn’t a Mesorah. The Besht had no Mesorah whatsoever for his teachings, and pretty much everyone agrees that what he taught was a huge change from traditional Judaism.
The Litvish Jews have a Mesorah that goes back thousands of years. Yes, there have been differences in the derech halimud that came up over time, but not in the observance of Halachah. The nusach of tefillah goes way, way back. Chassidim changed in. Let’s be clear – even Nusach Ari is NOT the tefillah as the Ari set it down. The Ari taught that each Shevet had its own nusach, which reached a separate “gate” in Shamayim. He also added in certain elements which he felt were common to all of them. After he passed away, many communities claimed that they had the proper text of the Ari’s additions – which, in many cases, were not actual additions to the davening, but just kavanos to have while davening.
Early chassidim then came up with the idea that nusach sfard was a superior nusach, and was capable of reaching a 13th gate.
The Baal haTanya studied all the different versions of the Ari’s nusach, and added in his own thoughts. He came up with what he felt was the most correct version of the Ari’s nusach, and labeled it as Nusach Ari. Again, there was no mesorah for this nusach – it was an amalgamation of other versions, coupled with his own thoughts. He did not have a Rebbe who taught him this nusach as being proper.July 28, 2023 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2211808
To be fair, the Gra also made changes to minhagim, nusach, and zmanim. On those specific issues, [non-Chabad] chassidim end up keeping the old Ashkenazi mesora better than most Litvishers.
I agree with parts of what you’re saying, but focusing on nusach changes made by the Baal Hatanya is kind of throwing stones in a glass house.July 29, 2023 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #2211915
Avira, do you have the source for the quote you provided in an older thread from Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky zt’l, that he said in Camp Ohr Shraga regarding racism? ShkoyachJuly 30, 2023 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2211950
Ujm, he said it on Shabbos, and it was never recorded; you can ask anyone from the hanhalah there. You can also ask stam talmidim of his; the story is very yaduah in both circles, but i don’t think it’s written up anywhere due to obvious reasonsJuly 30, 2023 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #22120062scentsParticipant
Interesting that it’s said that the Bal Shem Tov actually davened Nusach Ashkanaz, based on the siddur he used.
The topic of Nussach is complex, one cannot just change things around and there are lengthy discussions about this in the leading poskim.
Some say that the current Nusach Sefard dates back to the times when every shevat had their own nusach, which they had in their mesorah that targets another shaar. There was one nussach that was dedicated for those that are unsure as to what shevat they belong to, this is the nussach that is nowadays called nusach sefard.July 31, 2023 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2212284
I couldn’t disagree with you more.
Very little of the Toras Habesht has been preserved and none of it is novel for his day. He wasn’t an innovator in what he was teaching. The controversy was who he was teaching it to. There is nothing in the entire breadth of early chassidus that can be considered a new teaching in terms of a scholastic method. Though there is a lot of taking one known scholastic method and disregarding all the others. For example, exclusive use of Kavanos HaAri.
I don’t know who you are quoting about the Beshtian Teachings. Either you are understood it wrong or I strongly disagree with ‘pretty much everybody’. Along the lines of Neville’s point, it’s been noted that it difficult to distinguish the core teachings of the Besht from those of the Gra, AndSefer Tanya from Nefesh Hachaim. Later on we have Rav Nachman, The Kotzker, and others who incorporated many novel ideas into their teachings. These were not transmitted to them from the Early Chassidim. It is clearly their own approaches.
Us Litvaks lived ina very unique situation. The Litvishe Mesorah does not go back thousands of years. There is no model for the litvishe set up among the Rishonim or Gaonim. THe Jews settled in Lita for just five or six centuries. It is justified by what it produced. Not where it came from. Other than Iran or Yemen (And even then most of them are ignorant of their own traditions what is ancient and what is modern.), nowhere and nobody can claim anything close to a thousand year mesorah since the formation of the State of Israel. (The first half of the nineteenth century saw all the other ancient communities of the Mid East go through foundational changes.)
It can be debated if there was an original nusach or not. But the more we go back through the last millenium, the more we find even larger differences among the European Congregations. So it’s more likely that the Chassidim and the Misnagdim created their own uniform nusach than there having been any standard before them. Anyways, every nusach follows the same basic structure that the Misha speaks about. It’s all just minor changes to whatever nusach was used in the early days of European Jewry. It seems petty to me. As long as they daven for real, it’s fine with me.
You have to be kidding that observance in halachah wasn’t in constant flux throughout the time Yidden settled Eastern Europe. The entire history of Poland etc. is one timeline of seeking an exact code for communal practice. The is no correlation between the minhagim of the same town in 16th century, the 18, and the 20th. The bottom line didn’t change much but the communal bar for normative observance was never stable.
I hope everyone understands that this is a historical disscusion and is not about the yiras shamayim of previous generations. First we avoid any conclusion about Chasidim and all other groups. Second, we examine what actually ocurred. And third, we try to see what changed and why. Only then is possible to attempt an evaluation of what was a ‘better’ approach toward the future that we now live in.July 31, 2023 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #2212349
“The Litvishe Mesorah does not go back thousands of years.”
The Ashkenazi mesora does. As I’ve pointed out before, nobody other than wikipedia editors actually mean “Lithuanian” when they say Litvish; it just means non-Chassidishe Ashkenaz.
“But the more we go back through the last millenium, the more we find even larger differences among the European Congregations.”
This is an important point. Many of the differences between what we consider nusach Ashkenaz and Sphard were just pre-existing differences in Europe. Eg. saying “sim shalom” not “shalom rav” is brought down by Ashkenazi poskim, the placement of shir shel yom before aleinu, the inclusion of “Hashem melech” in psukei d’zimra. The only major chiddushim were changing the nusach of kedusha, and placing baruch sheamar in the middle rather than the beginning. Most of the other things have a basis in some version of the Ashkenazi mesora.
All this being said, I think I still agree with DaMoshe’s underlying point: just because there were divergences between towns in Europe doesn’t mean people can just go and start inventing their own minhagim based on sectarian hashkafa. The minhagim that people have criticized on these forums are exactly that.July 31, 2023 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2212352
1) whats the sourse of reb moshe’s heter? word of mouth? then check igros moshe orech chaim (אגרות משה – חלק ו (או”ח ח”ד siman 9 (letter to the lubavitcher rebbe btw) where he brings a gemara that you cant just pass down a heter without knowing the reason, so you need more than that.
mesorah? all depends what you consider mesorah. the baal shem tov thought to focus on certain things that were always around, you can also consider the vilosin yeshiva a change of mesorah, or the idea of kolel. or the brisker derech halimud. my point is not to question these ideas, my point is that apparently different people have different definitions of mesorah.July 31, 2023 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2212380
There isn’t a need for a heter to shave. People always shaved. In some times and places, the majority shaved. The question is if an electric shaver is similiar to a razor. What exactly is arazor is an old question. To automatically include a shaver (which has to apply opposite pressure) with a razor is a blockhead idea.July 31, 2023 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2212381
Which is ‘the Ashkenazi Mesorah’ I have five different candidates. Not including Lita.
Again, Lithunia was very unique. The spiritual environment and the living conditions were much different than the rest of Europe. Lita was not part of the Four Lands. The Rabbonim had more control over their communities than anywhere else in Ashkenaz.
If laypeople just make changes to the nusach it doesn’t go anywhere. It needs to be someone influential, or at least a printer. (But then the consumers have to not protest.) Do you think that the Shelah could change the nusach but not The Baal Hatanya? It would really depend on how much changes were being made in their days. My theory is that the fight over Nusach Ari is what stopped the constant changes. But a close observer will tell you that these things are still changing.
As far as I know, those minhagim where more regional, and are not specific to Chabad. When we discuss Chabad, Litvish and Ashkenaz differences matter. Because Chabad was more aligned with Lita. Most of the other Rebbes were Polish and not Litvish and were more like the rest of Ashkenaz in their locale.July 31, 2023 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #2212407
Sechel, you can be honest; is that the only teshuva from rav moshe that you know of, because it contains words sent to the Lubavitcher rebbe? I won’t judge you for it, it’s not your fault, it’s nust your background which leads to such things. Like the anti kollel people who basically know one line of rambam.
Rav moshe’s shaving heter was intentionally oral; he had reasons for not wanting to write about it. That doesn’t mean he didn’t explain it; he did, and the reasons were very convincing. Some yeshivishe guys don’t use electric shavers, rather they use haircut machines or trimmers, which don’t have sharp blades and leave a tiny bit behind. That’s what more than half of my friends did in my bochurishe days.July 31, 2023 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #2212436spot onParticipant
@neville, what are you talking about? “Keser” is mentioned in rishonim. Putting baruch sheamar in the middle [of shabbos psukei dezimra] is brought down in the Tur.July 31, 2023 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #2212446
@nomesorah there are many poskim who said its the same as a razor, see orchas yosher from reb chaim kanievski he brings the chazon ish, the steipler and rav shach, so apparently its not so simple
@avira, i learned many teshuvos of reb moshe and other poskim, i also learned most of shas btw, and have many chabad freinds who learned shas, (not just tanya like some think)July 31, 2023 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #2212479
Sechel83, very many Litvishe ba’alei battim learnt all of Shas — by learning Daf ha’yomi. I hope you understand that it is not worth a lot. So, I wonder how well you learnt the part of Shas that you learnt. Especially, that you are not into lomdus.July 31, 2023 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2212475Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
part of the chassidi innovations was breaking up a town kahal – shtibles and especially different shechita, given that kahal was typically supported by taxes on meat and candles, I believe.August 1, 2023 12:07 am at 12:07 am #2212493
““Keser” is mentioned in rishonim. Putting baruch sheamar in the middle [of shabbos psukei dezimra] is brought down in the Tur.”
I never said they had no basis in the rishonim, just that they weren’t the Ashkenazi minhag before. I’d be happy to be proven wrong, but I haven’t seen any evidence of it.
” Do you think that the Shelah could change the nusach but not The Baal Hatanya? ”
No, and I made the same point about the Gra’s changes to nusach. Why do you think I’m disagreeing with you on this? Was I really that unclear on this thread, or are you just assuming based on other threads that I always take the anti-Chabad position?
My stance is nuanced because that’s the historical reality. Many people think all Chassidishe minhagim are innovations when they are, in reality, just reflecting regional differences in Europe that would have existed even without Chassidus. This seems to be the point n0mesora is making, and I agree. However, to take it a step further and claim that NO chassidishe minhagim are innovations would be false. It’s very rational to have a problem with some but not with others.
“As far as I know, those minhagim where more regional, and are not specific to Chabad.”
100% agree. This is probably why there’s so much overlap between the stances of the Gra and the Baal Hatanya. I was criticized by Gra-fans for making this point here years ago. This being said, “those minhagim” are not the ones people are criticizing Chabad for.
“very many Litvishe ba’alei battim learnt all of Shas — by learning Daf ha’yomi. I hope you understand that it is not worth a lot.”
Sigh, ok, it’s time for us to collectively disavow of mdd’s crazy, unhinged statements again. Yes, it’s a big deal to learn all of shas. It is not the normative stance of the yeshivish world that learning all of shas is “not worth a lot.”August 1, 2023 6:33 am at 6:33 am #2212513
Neville, again — re-read my statement and try to understand it!! I meant finishing Shas through Daf yomi.August 1, 2023 6:33 am at 6:33 am #2212514
Neville, while the baalabatish litvishe world(like agudah) believes what you say about shas, the yeshivos do not. My Rosh Yeshiva knocks superficial learning of daf yomi all the time; this is how most roshei yeshiva speak when talking to non-baalei batim. It’s not mdd’s opinion or even a minority; you will not find any roshei yeshiva who advocate for superficial learning, unless the alternative is not learning at all, lack of motivation etc..August 1, 2023 6:34 am at 6:34 am #2212516
Re, shavers; no one said it was simple or universally accepted. I’d wager the majority of poskim collectively forbid them, but rav moshes psak prevailed in america among yireim veshlaimim… today’s generation, however, moved away from it to a very large extent, especially with the availability of trimmers like the Peanut which are basically universally accepted as kosher(besides the poskim who forbid due to kabalah reasons) and offer results which rival electric shavers.August 1, 2023 6:35 am at 6:35 am #2212517Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Neville > It is not the normative stance of the yeshivish world that learning all of shas is “not worth a lot.”
This was an objection when Daf Yomi was starting – that participants will think they now know the Shas ..August 1, 2023 6:36 am at 6:36 am #2212522Menachem ShmeiParticipant
>>>very many Litvishe ba’alei battim learnt all of Shas — by learning Daf ha’yomi. I hope you understand that it is not worth a lot. So, I wonder how well you learnt the part of Shas that you learnt. Especially, that you are not into lomdus.
This is such a degrading and disrespectful comment.
MDD, I’m not assuming anything, but just curious: How many times have you finished shas?August 1, 2023 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2212549
Menachem Shmei, to whom is it degrading — to Sechel83 or the ba’alebattim?August 1, 2023 8:43 am at 8:43 am #2212583
Regarding the Nusach haGra, most people don’t follow it. It’s only people who usually follow minhagei haGra that daven his nusach. Most daven regular Ashkenaz, which is NOT the Gra’s nusach.
Also, there are siddurim that are Nusach haGra which list the source for each change he made. It clearly shows what his Mesorah was for the changes.August 1, 2023 10:00 am at 10:00 am #2212621
DaMoshe: And your point is _______ ?
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