August 1, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2212673
Having learned most of Shas is very valuable to me.
Even learning one daf is more valuable than anything on this thread.
Somebody who learned when he was young should have no problem learning a daf gemara in roughly an hour if he does it consistantly.
A lot of the laypeople learn shas well. The issue is that they don’t retain it.
Why do you support collective disavowment on this site? Anybody who takes one poster’s statements and applies it to the group that poster speaks for will end up being wrong. That is this thread in a nutshell.August 1, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2212674
Rav Belsky was of the opinion that shavers and razors is a very simple sugya in halachah. He even published it more than once.August 1, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2212675
Look up your source’s sources. You are not reading it right. It is not a halacha sefer.
Ther Litvaks shaved in Europe before Rav Moshe came around. For those that actually learn the sugyos, it is simple. Though some are not comfortable because the result is the same as the razor.
For certain reasons that we won’t get into, almost none of the poskim from Europe published on the topic.August 1, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2212676
I am familiar with the perspective you posted.
It’s has no basis in reality.
There was no intentional assualt on the k’hal in this battle.August 1, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2212677Neville Chaim BerlinParticipant
“Regarding the Nusach haGra, most people don’t follow it.”
I know, but that’s not the point. My point was that you were being critical of the changes made by the Baal Hatanya, but would be unwilling to criticize those made by the Gra.
“It clearly shows what his Mesorah was for the changes.”
It shows reasoning, not mesora. He removed the “baruch hashem l’olam amein v’amein” by maariv for halachic reasoning of not being mafsik between geula and tefilla (same reason as the Baal Hatanya). Neither of them did it because they had a long-standing mesora to do so.
It seems like poskim in Lita were just more willing to “correct” the mesora. It doesn’t seem like it has anything to do with Chassidus.
“this is how most roshei yeshiva speak when talking to non-baalei batim.”
So they’re either pretending while talking to balhabatim or while talking to students. Don’t you think it might be more likely that someone would be doing a little more acting when interacting with students than they would be when interacting with mature, working adults?August 1, 2023 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #2212693
Nom, it’s true that rav belsky held that the shavers the litvishe world uses were perfectly kosher, but many of his talmidim, including me, were strict, and he held that using trimmers instead was a good chumra to practice. He said that even lift and cut should be ok, because he said it’s a marketing gimmick, but that he cannot in good conscience allow something which claims to do what it says it does, so he said that the mechanism must be removed.
He also held it was a significant inyan for even bochurim to have beards(of any length; this wasn’t a kabalah issue, but rather part of how the chofetz chaim describes as the tzurah of a yid), and indeed having a beard is more common in his Yeshiva than elsewhere.August 1, 2023 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #2212696
Neville, it’s important to understand that without daf yomi, many people wouldn’t learn at all. Roshei yeshiva aren’t going to blast something which is flawed but gets people to learn, because it’s not as if they’re going to drop it and leatn sugyos biyun slowly, covering maybe an amud a week due to their work schedules.
Also, a large amount of baalei batim simply lack the ability to learn sugyos biyun. Many can and do, as kolel yungeleit transition to the working world.August 1, 2023 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2212713
As for “acting,” tell me who you think are easier to mold and influence; bochurim or working people with little anchor besides shul, who will easily drop you and rabbi shop until they find someone with a beard who says what they want to hear?August 1, 2023 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #2212718
Before daf yomi, going to a daily gemara shiur was part of almost every frum man’s schedule.
To learn a sugya properly, requires a clear head. And some training.
It’s not like every yungerman in kollel is coming out with clear sugyos, either.
In any event, learning shas is special.
But why would chassidus be outside of it?August 1, 2023 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2212719Neville Chaim BerlinParticipant
“Roshei yeshiva aren’t going to blast something which is flawed but gets people to learn, because it’s not as if they’re going to drop it and leatn sugyos biyun slowly, covering maybe an amud a week due to their work schedules.
Also, a large amount of baalei batim simply lack the ability to learn sugyos biyun. Many can and do, as kolel yungeleit transition to the working world.”
Doesn’t sound like something I would say has “little value,” so I’m not really sure where we even differ. Nobody is saying that learning Daf Yomi is as good as learning b’iyun in yeshiva all day. The comment that started this digression was the assertion that it’s of little to no value in general.
“t’s true that rav belsky held that the shavers the litvishe world uses were perfectly kosher, but many of his talmidim, including me, were strict, and he held that using trimmers instead was a good chumra to practice.”
The never-shavers on this thread do not make a distinction between trimmers and shavers as far as I can tell. They might not even make a distinction for scissors.
“Anybody who takes one poster’s statements and applies it to the group that poster speaks for will end up being wrong.”
Welcome to the real world, buddy. People make generalizations based on experiences. Anyone with more than one week of experience on the CR should know that.
Other than just that, this particular thread was addressed to the Yeshivish oilam in general, so people responding are claiming to represent their community.August 1, 2023 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2212729
Neville, trimmers are much less controversial, because the blades aren’t sharp, and they’re designed to leave a drop of hair, because the top guide row is a little bit above the bottom, moving cutters.
As it happens to be, i once bought a very cheap trimmer with the top and bottom being on equal level, and rav belsky told me it was assur to use when i showed it to himAugust 1, 2023 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #2212733
Isn’t Yeshiva Torah Vodass officially a Chasidishe yeshiva (Nusach Sefard, etc) since the times of Reb Shrage Feivel Mendelovitz?August 1, 2023 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #2212760
Ujm, a small percentage of the talmidim are chasidish; rav shraga feivel wanted the yeshiva to remain with a “tropeleh chasidus,” in the sense that the nusach is sfard…a few minhagim here and there, but more importantly, some of the roshei yeshiva were chasidish, most notably rav gedaliah schorr, rav nesanel quinn, and rav rivkin, who was not as known outside yeshiva – but almost all of the other roshei Yeshiva were completely litvishe. I don’t know of anyone who classifies the Yeshiva as chasidishe to the extent where that would have any influence on the bochurim not shaving; the few who were drawn to, say, rav moshe wolfson, did not shave for that reason, but most of the others(myself included) refrained from doing so for reasons unrelated to chadidus or kabalah.August 1, 2023 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2212773
@avirah: thats my point that since almost all poskim forbade shavers, you cant just rely on reb moshe’s heter if you – your rav – does’nt know the reason, makoros – see the above source i quoted from reb moshe from bava basra 130, also see pesachim bottom of 51a, and also hilchos talmud torah.
@mdd1, thats i point i learned most of shas, not just to be yotze daf yomi, you can test me if you want to see how well i know that i learned. (btw most chabad balei batim learn rambam 3 perakim a day – finish all halachos of torah every 11.5 months, (the others learn 1 perek a day)) my point was that the question was asked assuming chabad dosent learn niglah. (i dont learn pilpulim shel hevel, (maharsha in taanis, shala) but i learn beiyunAugust 1, 2023 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #2212807Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
n0 > There was no intentional assualt on the k’hal in this battle.
Are you suggesting that attack on kahal was b’shgaga? If you separate the davening, meat, taxes, etc – what do you expect will happen? I would agree that political considerations were not usually primary, they were “for the higher goal” on both sides … for example, power struggle in Vilno with appeals to Russian government, where probably Russians succeeded in using the machlokes to weaken Jewish self-government more than each side benefited from trying to align with the government.August 1, 2023 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #2212808
Sechel, that’s not how psak works.
Jews in America are not beholden to poskim elsewhere; American poskim allowed it because rav moshe allowed it. It became accepted as the minhag haolam, and that is perfectly fine when someone who is accepted as the gadol hador issues a psak and is not challenged by many other gedolim in his country.
Most American jews accepted rav moshe as their rebbe in general, and there are very few psakim from rav moshe that aren’t followed, such as music, yerushos, and Shabbos timers (that’s about the extent of the list)August 1, 2023 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2212809
What do you think pilpul shel hevel means? It refers to stam connecting things.
No yeshiva guys do that; our pilpul is about figuring out pshat and svara in rhe and rishonim. Most chabad yeshivos do this too; im referring to what you find in rav Akiva eiger, ketzos, shmaatsa, reb chaim, rav baruch ber, rav elchanan, etc…those are not pilpul shel hevel cv”sAugust 1, 2023 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #2212826
Avira, which psak of Rav Moshe regarding yerushos are you referring to (that isn’t accepted)?August 2, 2023 8:55 am at 8:55 am #2212916
Ujm, rav moshe held that a secular will is fully valid in halacha; even the RCA beis din does not follow this psak.August 2, 2023 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #2213134
@no mesorah in europe the litvishe women also didint cover their hair – the chafetz chaim writes about it, as well as others,
@avirah: see the teshuvah i quoted from rav moshe himself where he asks how can chabad follow a psak of the baal hatanya that he told to all the sofrim (its a psak about stam) when they dont know the reason, and the gemaros mentioned, and in sh”u too, and in practiclly every introduction to every halacha book today, or piskei teshuvos, all talk about this idea that in order to pasken you need to understand the psak.
im just asking uestions, not saying its wrong.
so back to more uestions on the yeshiva world:
1) why do they push off getting married passed 20 (especially being that they learn in kolel and dont need to to to work after they get married)
2) can someone explain to me where this idea came from that a kolel yungerman of 30 (i.e.) is learning day and night since 13, and still didn’t finish shas (even mishnayos) rather he only learned certain mesachtos and mainly spends his day with pilpul. when did this start, and why?
3) is there a sefer that is accepted by litvaks as their hashkafa? nefesh hachayim? and what percent of litvaks have learned the whole thing?August 2, 2023 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #2213162
Sechel83, please tell me: what does Gemora in the second perek of Chagigah say about learning pnimius Ha’Torah? Who is supposed to be doing it? Every last dimwitted individual?August 3, 2023 8:50 am at 8:50 am #2213270
>>>what does Gemora in the second perek of Chagigah say about learning pnimius Ha’Torah? Who is supposed to be doing it? Every last dimwitted individual?
Indeed, the Gemara their said that the secrets of the Torah most only be given over to מי שלבו דואג בקרבו.
This is why for many years kabbala was only learned by a select few and kept a secret (which is why it is called רזי תורה).
However, as we get closer the Geula, the process of revelation has already begun. As the Arizal said (written by his student ר’ חיים ויטאל): דוקא בדורות אלו האחרונים מותר ומצוה לגלות זאת החכמה
Additionally, chassidus is not pure kabbala (although it is based on many ideas in kabbala), rather it is explained by the rabbeim in a way that can be understood by everyone (if learned properly, with the right guidance).
As the Rebbe Rayatz wrote:
וביחוד תורת חסידות חב”ד, עם היותה חקירה אלוקית עיונית בעומק נפלא, הנה בכל זאת מבארת כל השכלה עיונית בביאור רחב בדוגמאות ומשלים קרובי ההשגה, ומסברת בעין יפה עד אשר יהיה מובן ומושג גם לקטני ההשגה.
כאורח לימודי המושכלות מן הקל אל החמור, הנה כן הוא גם בלימוד תורת החסידות, אשר מוליך הוא משליבה לשליבה, בסולם החכמה והמדע
Here is also an interesting letter from the Rebbe on the matter, in response to someone who was worried about learning chassidus due to the problems with learning kabbala:
במענה על מכתבו מיו”ד אלול, בו כותב על אופן לימודו עד עתה וקיום המצות שלו, והחששות שיש לו בעסק לימוד תורת החסידות.
והנה אין לחשוש כלל וכלל כי אין זה לימוד תורת הקבלה אלא לימוד תורת החסידות אף שלפעמים נזכרים ענינים מתורת הקבלה, אבל הביאור שלהם ע”פ תורת החסידות שולל מקום לחששות האמורות במכתבו, והי’ מהמוכרח שילמוד את הקונטרס עץ החיים וקונטרס ומעין מכ”ק אדמו”ר מוהרש”ב והמבוא לקונטרס עץ החיים מכ”ק מו”ח אדמו”ר זצוקללה”ה נבג”מ זי”ע, אשר אז יראה עד כמה החששות שלו אין להם כל יסוד, ואינו אלא עצת היצר למנוע ממנו ידיעה בחלק גדול מתוה”ק אשר דוקא דורנו זה דעקבתא דמשיחא זכה שיתגלה חלק זה לרבים, ואם בהשגחה פרטית זכה גם הוא שיוודע לו אודות זה צריך לתפוס בהזדמנות זו בכל רמ”ח אבריו ושס”ה גידיו מבלי להכנס בשקו”ט עם היצה”ר שלו המעורר אצלו חששות הנ”ל, ואם מעט אור דוחה הרבה חשך הרי עאכו”כ הרבה אור, ואין להקשות מה הי’ בדורות הראשונים קודם שנתגלה תורת החסידות, כי קושיא זו דומה להיש מקשים מה הי’ בזמן המשנה קודם שהיתה הגמרא ובזמן הגמרא קודם שהיו ספרי הראשונים וכו’ והאריכות בזה אך למותר, ויעיין בקונטרס עץ החיים הנ”ל וינעם לו וירווח לו והשי”ת יצליחו להוסיף אומץ בתורת הנגלה ובתורת החסידות גם יחד ובהצלחה.August 3, 2023 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2213280
You are putting different times and places into the same narrative.August 3, 2023 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2213286
The litvishe yeshivos of pre war Europe were mostly shaven. This wasn’t a leniency. They knew their stuff. They disagreed with the Chofetz Chaim’s psak. That machine is now obsolete, so it’s not even a question anymore. But anyways, the last hundred years has yeilded more proofs against the Chofetz Chim’s position, than for it.
Clean working boys with good fathers go on the market around twenty. You can’t learn the same when you are married. They really should push off it even later.
Many Kollelleit finish shas or at least most of it, before they turn thirty. They just don’t advertise it, because they do not feel like they are ready to discuss any part of shas.
The not finishing the mesechta started fifty years ago. It is because there are so many boys going to yeshiva that aren’t pushing themselves hard enough to become gaonim. So, lack of productivity has become the norm in the last generation.
The percentage of yeshivaliet that learned the whole Nefesh Hachaim has been going up steadily. But I doubt it has reached even a 35%. Yeshiva guys need to learn non stop gemara more than anything else. Otherwise the yeshivos will crumble.August 3, 2023 9:45 am at 9:45 am #2213290
Ketzos is learned in Chabad yeshivos. And some of them are pretty good at it.August 3, 2023 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #2213329
Yes, Menachem…, no chashash at all. And it happened to be that it did lead to the stumbling block of some Chabadniks making their leader into a part of G-d.August 3, 2023 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #2213409
as mentioned, chassidus in not kabala, sometimes it uses kabala to bring out its ideas. anyone who learns chassidus sees this.
@mdd1: exactly my point, because you dont learn chassidus, then you see a quote from a chabadnik, or likutai sichos, and you think thats a issue, its actually a posuk in iyov חלק אלוק ממעל edited and its one of the main concepts in chassidus explained at leangth all over, (and it applies to every yid) for the past 300 yrs+, suddenly out of hate (no other way to explain it) someone wakes up and makes a big deal about it.August 3, 2023 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #2213414
@mdd what does the mishnah is avos and gemarah in brachos say about learning torah without yitas shamayim?
what deos the rambam say is the way to come to love and fear hashem? what does shulchan aruch say to think about before davening? many more….
apparently some think everything besides for lumdos is kabala, maybe lumdus is kabala, after all where do we find it in gemara? maybe it comes from eitz chayim?August 3, 2023 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #2213433Reb EliezerParticipant
Fron the Chasam Sofer
שו”ת חתם סופר חלק א (אורח חיים) סימן קנט
אבל אשר שם פניו נגד מגולחי הזקן, לא ידעתי מה הרעש הגדול הזה, לכו נא ונוכחה אי משום חוקת הגויים אשאלהו ויודיעני מי התיר לנו נעלים שחורים המבואר בש”ס לאסור מסאני אוכמי ולהפליא ענין אמרו במס’ תענית כ”ב9 ע”א דהוה מסיים מסאני אוכמי, ויעיין ב”ק נ”ט10 ע”ב ובתוס’ שם ד”ה דהוה מסיים, ובשיטמ”ק שם מחלק בין שחור לאוכם וזה מסכים קצת לפי’ ה”ג דמייתי תוס’ פרק אלו טרפות מ”ו ע”ב ד”ה אוכמי, הנאמר שהוא מקור משחת, כאשר כתב על עם ה’ אלו, לא ניחא למרייהו למימר הכי, והוא דבר דלא נמצא בש”ס ופוסקים וגם לא בשום ספר מספרי חצונים שיהי’ הפרש בין ישראל לאינו ישראל בגילוח הזקן כי אז גם כל האומות היו מגדלים זקניהם, ויעיין בש”ס שבת קנ”ב ע”א תלת אמרת לי תלת שמעת וכו’, וברבה בראשית פ’ י”א סי’ ז’ פילוסוף שאל את ר’ יהושע וכו’ מפני מה אותו האיש מגלח פאת ראשו ומגדל זקנו וכו’ יע”ש, אבל לא נמצא בשום מקום שיהיה בזה משונה מנהג גוים. ומה שרמז לספרי מקובלים שכתבו שלא להושיט ידים בדקני כלל אין לי עסק בנסתרות, אבל מהם ומהמונם הותרה הרצועה לגמרי בכל ארץ אטלי’ שכל חכמיה מגולחי זקן ונתלים באילן גדול ר’ מנחם עזרי’ בעל עשרה מאמרות אבי המקובלים שהוא היה מגולח מבלי השאיר שערה א’, וכן העיד עליו היש”ר מקאנדיא באילים שלו, והיה אומר שעפ”י חכמי המקובלים אין חוץ לארץ ראויה לכך, ומה אאריך במה שאין לי יד ושם בו, אבל אבותינו הנהיגו עצמם כן על צד ההכרח הגדול ולא מקור משחת ח”ו אלא בקדושה יתירה, והוא בימי גזירת תתנ”ו, והרועים וכדומה התירו גדוליהם להמכתתים רגליהם לשנות מלבוש ולגלח זקנם שלא יכירום האויבים כי אז כבר גלחו הגוים זקניהם עפ”י מעשה ממלך פולין א’ שהי’ סריס כמבואר בספרי הימים והתירו חז”ל שהיו בימים ההם לעשות כן, ולהיות גלוח הזקן דבר שאי אפשר להשתנות והיו נכלמים מאוד האנשים ההמה בשובם לביתם, על כן נשתרבב המנהג שלא לגדלו כלל רק סימנא בעלמא שזה יגולח ויגדל בקוצר זמן שבן לילה היה ורק אך מופלגי תורה היושבים בביתם הם מגדלים אותו, ואותן שלפני גזירה ההיא שברחו לארץ פולין לא באו לכלל זה. והנה זה ברור ונכון כי אילו היה תחלת מנהגו באיסור היה משום חוקי הגוים, אבל אחר שכבר נהגו ישראל לגלח, תו אין בו שום נדנוד ופקפוק כלל אפילו ריח איסור אין בו, אבל הך דמסאני אוכמי לא ידעתי איך נתפשט11 ע”כ צריכין אנו ללמוד זכות ולומר שנתפשט ג”כ בתחילה בהיתר וכיון שהותר הותר. והנה יעיין ביורה דעה סימן קנ”ז ס”ב ויעיין ש”ך סי’ קע”ח סק”ד הקשה אמהרי”ק, ובחידושי למסכת חולין12 ישבתי ת”ל יתברך באופן הנאות, ואי משום מספריים כעין תער זהו חשש רחוק ושרשו פתוח מתרומת הדשן13 כשהזוג חדוד מאוד יש לזהר אולי יחתוך בתחתון לחוד וידענא שהוא מידי דלא שכיח, גם מההשחתה תחת הגרון המעיין בש”ס [מכות כ’ ע”א] וראשונים יראה כי ממש לית מאן דחש לדברי ר”ח14 בזה, והמחמיר קדוש יאמר לו והמקיל לא יאמר עליו מקור משחת ח”ו. כללו של דבר, כל מה שאמר מכ”ת באגדת ריב”ח15 הנמשל הוא טוב וקדש קדשים, והמשל שהיסב פני’ על חטא קל וקטן לא יקרא ח”ו בשם חטא ועון חלילה וחס, והאומר כן עתיד ליתן הדין בלי ספק, והייתי יכול להמשיל משל אחר אבל ועמך כולם צדיקים כתיב, ויהי’ ממחוז פלוני או פלוני:August 3, 2023 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2213436
Seiche83, why is Christianity an avodah zorah?!? What do you care to explain? It is exactrly this concept that you mentioned that talmidei Yeshu and talmidei Shabtai Tzvi and some CHabadniks misunderstood!!August 4, 2023 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #2213494
Maybe Chabad’s concept of a rebbe is on par with your version of a god. It is not on par with their understanding of Hashem ch”v. You can’t fault Chabad and Chassidus that you don’t have a concept of Atzilus.August 4, 2023 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #2213552
“Maybe Chabad’s concept of a rebbe is on par with your version of a god. It is not on par with their understanding of Hashem ch”v.”
That seems irrelevant to me. The issue is not with Mdd or Chabad’s conception of G-d, or how powerful or perfect the Lubavitcher Rebbe was, but whether Chabad’s veneration of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is on par with avoda zara or not.
Suppose there was a “Coffeeroomer Rebbe” who knew the future, picked all the Powerball numbers correctly, and kept the posters who listened to him from boarding planes that crashed. And he could zap people with eye lasers. And when he gave someone directions that differed from the actual route, the roads would jump up and realign to what he said. And even after he died, if someone insulted him, an invisible hand would smack that person on the back of the head. We’d still be forbidden from serving or worshipping this Coffeeroomer Rebbe in any way. Because all of his power came from Hashem, and the Torah says we only worship Hashem.August 6, 2023 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #2213883
“.. on par with Avodah Zarah or not.”
A”Z is not the same as minus.
There is no A”Z here because there is no worship other than going to the ohel. Which is no different than going to any other kever.
Saying yechi, even including divine identifactions for the rebbe, is never A”Z. It would only be minus with an overall context of a new order. (Order as in teaching, belief, dogma.)
The easiest way to test the boundaries of klal yisroel is to become a mumar. This can’t be applied to Chabad as they are as observant as the rest of us.
I have pointed this out dozens and dozens of times. Every poster here seems more interested in piling on Chabad for the sillies things, than responding to how they understand these basic concepts. I have come to accept that pettiness is their highest dogma.
Maybe you can forgive me for having the opinion that yidden don’t care at all about what it really means to accept the Kingdom of Hashem. They prattle about it a bit for Rosh Hashana and can’t make sense of it. So they move on to the rest of their year. The individuals who seem to understand it, don’t really discuss it. Maybe this was what Rav Soloveitchik meant when he said that it is something to experience and cannot be taught.August 7, 2023 1:36 am at 1:36 am #2213898
Nomesorah, I did not want to respond to your posts, but this is one is just…! There can be no bigger mumar than a min!!! Even if he observes the rest of Halochh very well.August 7, 2023 1:52 am at 1:52 am #2213901
Whatever you mean. So show where Chabad has minus than Brisk doesn’t. If you can’t back yourself up, you shouldn’t be calling out others.August 7, 2023 2:03 am at 2:03 am #2213903
וְכֵן הָעוֹבֵד כּוֹכָב אוֹ מַזָּל וְזוּלָתוֹ כְּדֵי לִהְיוֹת מֵלִיץ בֵּינוֹ וּבֵין רִבּוֹן הָעוֹלָמִים.
This is the closest line in the Rambam to the endless Chabad = Minus threads. It is a major stretch. If this is what the Anti Chabad has in mind, we can just consider it debunked.August 7, 2023 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #2214154
from the way litvaks look at g-d, seems like they have many g-ds, seems like they hold some gedolim higher than g-d, after all hashem gave the torah to make shalom in the world, but some gedolim argued, divrai harav vidivrai hatalmid divrai mi shomim.August 7, 2023 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #2214172
I don’t understand why non Chabad opinions are important to you.August 8, 2023 7:51 am at 7:51 am #2214310
Sounds like your rantingAugust 8, 2023 8:39 am at 8:39 am #2214345
At a certain point it just becomes amusing, like when you hear what the colorful characters who hang out at amnons pizza and similar places have to sayAugust 8, 2023 11:21 am at 11:21 am #2214424
I was never there. What do they have to say?August 8, 2023 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #2214452
“A”Z is not the same as minus.”
Ok, so ctrl-H A”Z to minus in my previous post. It doesn’t really affect the point I was trying to make.
“There is no A”Z here because there is no worship other than going to the ohel … Saying yechi, even including divine identifactions for the rebbe, is never A”Z. It would only be minus with an overall context of a new order. (Order as in teaching, belief, dogma.)”
This seems like pigeonholing to me. Limit the definitions enough and nobody is over! Maybe it’s true, but I don’t know that the other posters agree with your definitions. As far as a group forming a “new order”, I think whether that’s occurring is one of the focuses of this debate. I’ve not really jumped deep into the A”Z/minus/halachos/customs side of the debate. Most of that is beyond my ability to judge. My points (mostly ignored) have been more focused on where Chabad is forming dividing lines with the rest of frum Jewry. The example I’ve brought up a few times is that other frum Jews serve as archtypical villains in their worldview. And yes, you’ve repeatedly advocated a laissez-faire approach, but I disagree. Chabad’s actions and attitudes do have an impact on the rest of Judaism. I’m not ordering them to do or not do anything, nor am I telling them what to think or believe. But I’m interested in having a discussion. Why is that so scary and wicked?
“The easiest way to test the boundaries of klal yisroel is to become a mumar.”
I don’t think this is true at all. It’s another pigeonhole. Frum Jews have always had theological debates.
“Every poster here seems more interested in piling on Chabad for the sillies things, than responding to how they understand these basic concepts. I have come to accept that pettiness is their highest dogma.”
Every poster here? This seems like an unfair exaggeration, with an insult to boot. Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but Chabad seems to claim that their teachings bring mysticism from the realm of the esoteric to the reach of every Jew. E.g., they’ll preferentially learn Tanya with new BTs who don’t know any gemara, barely any halacha, and have no experience living a frum lifestyle. But when faced with any questions or challenges on these supposedly mystical topics (or whether people are misunderstanding them to great risk), they seem to argue that the concepts are just too esoteric and holy for our stunted little Litvish souls to grasp. It can’t be both ways. If something is truly esoteric, than a simplified explanation to someone unprepared to learn it can lead to misunderstanding. If it’s truly simple to explain, then explain it!
“Maybe you can forgive me for having the opinion that yidden don’t care at all about what it really means to accept the Kingdom of Hashem. They prattle about it a bit for Rosh Hashana and can’t make sense of it. So they move on to the rest of their year.”
I don’t have the authority forgive or not forgive you for writing this, but these cynical words coming from someone seemingly so young is distressing. Perhaps you are used to being the smartest guy in the room all the time, but don’t think for a minute that you can guess or interpret what’s in the hearts of other people, or know what they’re all about. Just like you don’t want others judging the souls and commitment of kids with noses in smartphones all the time.August 8, 2023 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #2214489
Admittedly, the nonstop Chabad talk is getting to me. Possibly, I chose to vent to you because I know that you will only respond methodically and clearly.
To your point first:
“My points (mostly ignored) have been more focused on where Chabad is forming dividing lines with the rest of frum Jewry.”
This is worth considering. The truth is that all groups do this to some level. It has been taken to extreme recently by all parts of Orthodox Judaism. Some are only knowable from the inside. Some are only visible online. Since Chabad by design is trying to attract the whole world, their claim to exclusivity is much harder to hide. I made this point before. Also, you can find Chabad speakers all over the internet. Other groups are not as public. Maybe you mean something more specific.
I am serious about the min/apikores/kofer/mumar/etc prism. I don’t think it’s so easy to separate from Klal Yisroel while still being fully observant and treating others properly. Especially as a whole group. I don’t see anything abnormal about Chabad. Every group has their thing that makes them different. It is intrinsic to being sub divided into groups.
From your first post:
“…but whether Chabad’s veneration of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is on par with avoda zara or not.”
I don’t even know why anybody would think it is a problem if they have gone through the sugya. If the point is something to do with secular anthropology, I don’t know why that is an issue. There are venerated icon’s in every society.
Back to today’s post:
” Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but Chabad seems to claim that their teachings bring mysticism from the realm of the esoteric to the reach of every Jew.”
“But when faced with any questions or challenges on these supposedly mystical topics (or whether people are misunderstanding them to great risk), they seem to argue that the concepts are just too esoteric and holy for our stunted little Litvish souls to grasp.”
Now, this is a discussion! You don’t seem to have a problem with either point other than the debate here is playing both sides. Am I right about that, or do you have an objection to one or both of these points?
I agree with you that Chabad plays the you can’t know card. Having seen it a bit from the inside, my theory is that it works like this:
Chabad was always mystically inclined. How well it worked in the old world, is not the subject here. When they came to America, they wanted to keep that way. The problem is that they were stepping into the modern world and rationalism was dominating everything else. The solution was to double down and not give an inch. A very Chabad way of reacting to a problem. So Kabbalah which had been in the open in Europe, was now systemized to be taught everywhere. The Rebbe spent four decades advocating kabbalistic ideas and the spread of it’s teachings. Naturally, no area of Jewish thought was out of bounds. Many subjects which are not mundane at all, received much more attention in Chabad than the rest of us were giving it.
Every educator knows that just because you make a deep subject teachable, it doesn’t mean that the students will grasp the deeper concepts. And even those that can repeat the subject matter do not necessarily know the origin of it’s ideas. That is what we are experiencing with Chabad. Those that follow along with the curriculum, can talk endlessly about these concepts and how they work with each other. But they seem to know little in why it has to be this way and not some other way. Their only defense is finding a source in some sichah. Since their knowledge is based on integration as opposed to foundations, they assume we are just lacking in all the confirming information. They do not understand that we are questioning the fundamental concepts.
I have had fun night long bull sessions with many a Chabadsker. Only once did I meet one who seemed more like a conceptual thinker. He really had no interest in the whole united leader, leading us to our destiny concept. Also, Chabad has a massive network. I imagine that those that really know all the mystical stuff are not the ones we are interacting with. Maybe they are as hard to find as a yeshivshe mekubal.
This is my response to Chabad having it both ways. They are trying to spread a simple kabbalah to the whole world. They aren’t questioning what they are taught. (Which group does?) So they claim that everyone can accept it like they do. But without accepting the simple form of it, it can’t be understood without really studying it.
In a line. It is simple to accept, but esoteric in it’s real meaning.
I have been accused of cynicism my whole life. Whatever my virtues, I really fail at tribalism.
PS If I missed the thrust of your post, than instead of a response to me just post your issue with Chabad and I’ll take it from there.
PPS The Chabad topic bores me because it is just a bunch of misunderstandings. Other topics have much more potential for substance from both sides.August 8, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2214527
Menachem, it’s hard to describe… you’d just have to be there; not just there, shomer shabbos, a few blocks away…these people can be seen all over boro park too.August 8, 2023 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2214584
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
“I made this point before. Also, you can find Chabad speakers all over the internet. Other groups are not as public. Maybe you mean something more specific.”
I agree that Chabad’s outreach puts their exclusivity on a bigger display. That’s a big part of it. I do feel however that there’s a difference in degree that goes beyond visibility. The only thing more specific I can say is that the villainizing of other groups makes me particularly uncomfortable due to their broad outreach. It doesn’t seem like a good idea for animosity to be spread along with the Chabad-style chassidus. I’m in a community where Chabad is particularly well integrated with the rest of the frum structure, and I’m in some Chabad focused groups for community info, etc. There’s a lot of MO and BT types who have gravitated towards the local Chabad, sometimes not even because they originally wanted Chabad teachings, but they liked that nobody gives death glares if their kid accidentally breathes in shul, they liked the people, the rabbi, etc. And yet they like to share memes that put down the Litvish or “misnagdim”. I get the desire to identify with your chosen group, and I know there’s some reciprocity, but Chabad’s outreach hits a huge audience, with an exploding number of non-Jews in the mix, and this animosity seems to have a quick uptake. Are we ok with Noahides hating on the “snags”?
“You don’t seem to have a problem with either point other than the debate here is playing both sides. Am I right about that, or do you have an objection to one or both of these points?”
I don’t have a problem with people holding either the idea that kabbalistic mysticism is abstruse or that it can be straightforward. You’re right that it’s the playing both sides that I object to, particularly because the tactic denigrates those with different viewpoints and can shut down discussion.
“Since their knowledge is based on integration as opposed to foundations, they assume we are just lacking in all the confirming information. They do not understand that we are questioning the fundamental concepts.”
“But without accepting the simple form of it, it can’t be understood without really studying it.”
These points are really insightful. I think I agree with you.August 9, 2023 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #2214836RoshYeshivasTainaParticipant
1: enough with all these threads about Lubavitch. It is a holy Chassidus and it’s Rebbe איש אלוקים קדוש הוא.
2: @mdd1 get help. Either you are a sonei chinam or just uneducated. I hope the latter. Open an Igros Moshe and you will see the titles Reb Moshe gives the Rebbe.
3: It is an ISSUR DEORAYSA to cut your beard. The Gedolim paskened. I don’t know what Reb Moshe wrote. Even if he wrote that, במחילת כבוד קדושתו, יחיד ורבים הלכה כרבים.
There is a well known story that a Bachur came to Rav Shteinman and asked if he could shave his beard. When Rav Shteinman said no, the Bachur said that everyone else in his yeshiva shaves. Rav Shteinman asked him: would you eat Chazir if everyone in your yeshiva did?
The Chafetz Chaim wrote a whole Sefer against cutting your beard.
The Baba Sali would refuse to hear Birkas Kohanim from a Kohen who didn’t have a beard.
Reb Chaim wrote a Perez in Orchos Yoshor about it.
I saw letters from Rav Shach, the Chazon Ish and Rav Aharon Kotler that say that you cannot shave.
A Rabbi by the name of Reb Moshe Viner wrote a two volume set with all the mekoros and letters of the Gedolim about cutting your beard. It is called Hadras Ponim – Zoken.August 9, 2023 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #2214842
RoshYeshivas…, what are you referring to?
And, also, it is sure a great answer to all the ta’anos: Chabad is a holy Chassidus. All the questions fall off!
Also, stop with this Amerikanish Chabad ta’ana of sinas chinom when someone questions some beliefs or actions of Chabad. Give straight answers.August 9, 2023 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #2214840
Rosh – some pretty grandiose statements you’ve got there.
When’s the last time you stepped foot out of crown heights or kfar chabad?August 10, 2023 7:07 am at 7:07 am #2214868
1: I agree with this point.
2: I possibly agree with some of this, but I probably wouldn’t word it so strongly.
3: I disagree with this. The Tzemach Tzedek says that shaving with scissors is deoraisa, and trimming is a safek deoraisa.
He is generally a yochid in this matter. He makes it clear in his teshuva that this against the opinion of Shulchan Aruch.
I agree that the Tzemach Tzedek is a very very great and holy yochid, and being that he is one of my holy rabbeim I accept all of his psokim, and I would love if the rest of the world followed suit, but I wouldn’t call him a rabim.
It is possible that majority of poskim prohibit shaving and trimming (albeit not medoraisa) as can be seen from the sefer Hadras Ponim Zokon, but I wouldn’t say that everyone is obligated to follow them because of yochid and rabim.
It may be very desirable to have a beard due to the overwhelming majority of poskim who encourage it, as well as other important maalos of beard, but I wouldn’t say it’s an obligation IF someone follows a rov who allows trimming.
I would agree however that it is wrong when people play two sides on which rabbanim they use. Some people might accept Rav Shach as daas Torah who must be followed by all of klal Yisroel in regard to Chabad (even though Reb Moshe openly disagreed with him, as can be seen in my post in a different thread) yet when it comes to beards they are meikel like Reb Moshe (when Rav Shach wrote that it is ossur to be meikel and use any type of electric shaver).
Obviously, this hypocrisy does not apply to someone who is against Chabad for his own logical reasons, instead of claiming that he’s just following “daas Torah”.August 10, 2023 11:04 am at 11:04 am #2214891
Menachem, can you clarify your last point? You’re saying that it is hypocritical, wrong and playing two sides to hold like Rav Moshe regarding shaving (and not hold like Rav Shach regarding shaving) but not hold like Rav Moshe regarding Chabad (and instead to hold like Rav Shach regarding Chabad)?
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