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It seems that those in favor of women wearing Tefillin have a good source to rely on – R’ Chaim Kanievski. In his commentary to Maseches Tzitzis he explains that the man d’amar that holds that the chachamim protested Michal wearing Tefillin holds that women do not get a mitzvah for doing a mitzvas aseh shehazman grama and therefore putting on Tefillin is an issur of Lo Silbash. But we pasken that women do get a mitzvah for doing a mitzvas aseh shehazman grama in which case the fact that it’s a mitzvah makes it not lo silbash. And the problem of guf naki wouldn’t be a problem is based on the assumption that that was the reason why the chachamim protested Michal. But once we explained that man d’amar with the other reason, mimayla this problem doesn’t exist. Granted he concludes with tzarich iyun because of the Rema and the Biur Hagra, but lemaaseh according to his pshat, women can wear Tefillin.
I don’t understand u could wake up wtvr time u want every day without ever having to worry about shema zman teffila or TEFFILIN do u realize what a luxury that is?? I love the mitzvah of teffilin, but seriously chill, why would u want another reason to never be able to sleep late or go places where a minyan is required?!
U wanna wear teffilin go ahead they cost 2000 bucks and have to be put on EVERYDAY not just when u feel spiritual, and can’t be kept just anywhere eg; sun heat etc. . Oh and a bag and accessories are like another 150$. U wanna tallis also?
My advice: enjoy the mitzvos u were given its alot easier for women to connect to god then for men they dont need all the extra stuff, maybe that’s why they weren’t given them, who knows
Ihear, what does putting on tefillin as an optional mitzvah have to do with what time one wakes up?
PAA, R’ Chaim is clearly not saying anything l’maaseh. Why do you say he is?
PAA – I can not speak for R’ Chaim being that I have not asked him directly. It is obvious, however, that he is in great opposition to WOW.
I would venture to say that according to everybody, including the Ben Ish Chai who holds that there is a problem of Beged Ish, the main problem here is that these WOW women are Mizalzel B’Torah U’Mitzvos. The fact that they as a whole are not Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos shows that their wearing Tefillin has nothing to do with dedicating themselves to Torah, but rather they are feminists that found their niche in feminism; namely “defend” women from chauvinism in Judaism. Unfortunately, in order for a cause to take off you need backers and they are clearly not getting support from their religious counterparts.
BTW – later I found this quote by Rabbi Ozer Alport, although he does not quote his source.
If that is the case, then clearly according to Harav Chaim Kanievsky WOW is different being that even they feel that Tefillin is voluntary for a woman and not obligatory.
PAA: Everyone agrees that according to the Maskana of the Gemara and most Rishonim women can wear Tefillin. The objection is based on the Minhag quoted in the Rama that developed either during or after the time of the Gemara. MiDina DiGemara it’s Muttar. But the very strong Minhag is to be Oser. That is what these people (let’s call them neo-Conservatives) are missing. It’s not Halachic because they think they can ignore the Halachic process and re-read the Sugya against the Rama and all the Achronim.
Softwords: That’s not a good answer for Michal because it assumes Darshinan Taama Dikra. We’re not Doresh Taama Dikra like that.
However he learns pshat in the gemara, is irrelevent until we know how he would pasken limaaseh.
ihear-
Who said women don’t have to worry about zman tefilah?
It doesnt obviate hundreds of years of psak limaaseh and mesorah though. That is the crucial point.
“But the very strong Minhag is to be Oser.”
If it is minhag, it isn’t asur. There is a difference.
“It doesnt obviate hundreds of years of psak limaaseh and mesorah though.”
Can an acharon can ignore other acharonim? If you can pasken halachah l’maaseh based on chazal and rishonim, you can get very different conclusions. The Vilna Gaon did just that, and to a great extent so did Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik z’tz’l and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef z’tz’l. Given our strong idea that earlier authorities are greater than later authorities, it takes a lot to say that the Bavli, and a significant fraction, possibly even a majority, of the important rishonim, can’t be followed.
Patur Aval Assur:
1: Rav Chaim is a Talmid Chacham, not a Posek (Not to take away from his Gadlus, he says so himself).
2: If it wasn’t written as P’sak, then it is only hypothetical lomdus (which is common in the Yeshiva world).
Softwords – I don’t disagree with you about WoW, but the OP probably brought the question up because of recent events in the US which have nothing to do with WoW. (This is a general FYI comment and is not an attempt to disagree with your good points).
Charlie: Minhagim can make things Assur. Of course they can. Minhag is a powerful Halachic tool and consideration.
Also, your second paragraph is in theory not incorrect. However, it takes incredibly broad shoulders to say that we can go like Rishonim against the Psak Hamekubal in Shulchan Aruch and Achronim. Shoulders far, far broader than anyone who has supported this issue has.
Now if someone wants to say that R’ Chaim’s mehalech can’t override the Rema, that’s perfectly fine.
Of course it can’t, which is why taking R’ Chaim out of the realm of “hypothetical lomdus” (black hat tip to Gavra) is so outrageous, yet that is what you are doing.
“Rav Chaim is a Talmid Chacham, not a Posek (Not to take away from his Gadlus, he says so himself)”
So I don’t have to follow an edict upon which his name is signed?
Why would you think that you would have to? Is he your personal Rov (as opposed to Softwords, for whome he might be)? Of course you don’t.
DY: As we sometimes say here, thank you kindly.
Except that that’s not how halacha is supposed to work.
Newhere- Are women not Patur from any mitzvah shasey Shehazman grama?
And teffilin does have to do with what time u wake up just go to the Diras in e’y and ull c what I mean 🙂
PAA: I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. If a truly Tzanua woman who is Yarei Hashem wants to put on Teffilin in the privacy of her own home and without publicizing it, she has enough support for that before this R’ Chaim. And the Mekoros Assering still Asser. It’s a P’shat, but it won’t change anything in any direction in this discussion.
PAA: I do not know off hand if these are the psakim of Rav Chaim or just him bringing down the psakim of the mishna brura in short, but this is what he writes in ??? ???? ?????:
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???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? (??? ???? ???).
PAA: You are correct, I was very tired when I read your original comment and somehow interpreted it to refer to WOW. Sorry.
Question however. Did you bring this down for the MO girls that want to wear tefillin?
“If a truly Tzanua woman who is Yarei Hashem wants to put on Teffilin”
I do not know why this has become such a big issue. I do not know any orthodox women who put on tefillin. And I live in Riverdale!
“I don’t understand u could wake up wtvr time u want every day without ever having to worry about shema zman teffila or TEFFILIN do u realize what a luxury that is?? I love the mitzvah of teffilin, but seriously chill, why would u want another reason to never be able to sleep late or go places where a minyan is required?!
U wanna wear teffilin go ahead they cost 2000 bucks and have to be put on EVERYDAY not just when u feel spiritual, and can’t be kept just anywhere eg; sun heat etc. . Oh and a bag and accessories are like another 150$. U wanna tallis also?
My advice: enjoy the mitzvos u were given its alot easier for women to connect to god then for men they dont need all the extra stuff, maybe that’s why they weren’t given them, who knows”
Think about why men say “shelo asani isha” and why women say “sheasani kirtzono” and then rethink your above rant.
Also– “2000 bucks” and “another 150 for accessories”??? Are you kidding?? where on earth did you buy your tefillin? My husband got a gorgeous pair of gasos for 500 including the bag and everything.
“If it is minhag, it isn’t asur. There is a difference.”
so, “al titosh torah imecha” means nothing to you? the statement of chazal “minhag yisroel torah” means what, in your opinion?
“Can an acharon can ignore other acharonim?”
Anyone can ignore anything.
“If you can pasken halachah l’maaseh based on chazal and rishonim, you can get very different conclusions. The Vilna Gaon did just that, and to a great extent so did Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik z’tz’l and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef z’tz’l.”
So, you are equating those who permitted these girls to wear tefillin with The Gr’a, Rav Yosef Dov Halevi Soleveitchik and Rav Ovadia Yosef Zicronam livracha?
For starters they would never IGNORE earlier authorities, they might rule differently DESPITE the rulings of earlier authorities. That is quite different that IGNORING them.
“Given our strong idea that earlier authorities are greater than later authorities, it takes a lot to say that the Bavli, and a significant fraction, possibly even a majority, of the important rishonim, can’t be followed.”
Shammai and his talmidim were exceedingly greater in torah knowledge than we could ever imagine, however, the halacha does not follow them, and despite their greatness one can not decide to follow their opinions simply because they were such great people.
One can not simply take up the argument that, i am a rabbi, he is a rabbi, we are from the same time period, so, why not, let me find an opinion that disagrees with him and hang my opinion on that and run with it. If one chooses to do so, despite 500 years of mesorah not to, to me it says that either these people are so exceedingly knowledgeable in their torah knowledge that they feel comfortable discarding the last 500 years of practical halachic practice, or, they simply dont care. Interestingly enough, their own Rebbe believes they overstepped their bounds by this ruling.
“2000 bucks” and “another 150 for accessories”???
Barely covers a sheitel and a styling these days 🙂
“If one chooses to do so, despite 500 years of mesorah not to, to me it says that either these people are so exceedingly knowledgeable in their torah knowledge that they feel comfortable discarding the last 500 years of practical halachic practice, or, they simply dont care.”
Perhaps I am not being fair by pigeonholing them into one of these 2 options. Perhaps there is another option and that is, that despite 500 or more years of mesora they ruled the way they did due to some very compelling reason and using that very compelling reason along with authorities who do permit the practice to begin with, ruled as they did. Did they share with us the compelling reason to rule as they did? Did they even share their opinion with their own Rebbe?
ihear-
Yes, women are patur from mitzvas aseh shehazman grama, and are certainly patur from tefillin. But they are chayav in tefilah. How many times a days is a machlokes rishonim, but most mainstream achronim (including the m’b) hold that women are chayav at least in shachris and mincha. Assuming women are chayav in shachris I don’t see why they wouldn’t be obligated in zman tefillah as well. Another point to consider is that if a woman wants to say birchos krias shma (which she is not required to), according to nearly all achronim, it would be assur to say it after zman tefillah.
My only issue with this personally, is that were it to become commonly accepted practice for women to don tefillin every day, there would surely come a time when the woman who does NOT put on tefillin would be viewed as somehow not frum enough.
‘”al titosh torah imecha” means nothing to you?’
No, I said that there is a big difference between minhag and halachah. Minhagim change all the time. Halachah, only rarely.
Saying that minhag trumps halachah is reducing Rabbinic Judaism to a collection of customs. It is exactly what we accuse the Conservative and Reform movements of doing.
“you are equating those who permitted these girls to wear tefillin with The Gr’a, Rav Yosef Dov Halevi Soleveitchik “
My rav told me years ago that Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l told him explicitly that women could put on tefillin if the motivation was correct.
” they would never IGNORE earlier authorities, they might rule differently DESPITE the rulings of earlier authorities”
In the case of women and tefillin, it is the earlier authorities who permit and the later authorities who don’t.
“despite 500 years of mesorah not to, to me it says that either these people are so exceedingly knowledgeable in their torah knowledge that they feel comfortable discarding the last 500 years of practical halachic practice, or, they simply dont care.”
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef z’tz’l ruled that a woman can read Megillat Esther for a man l’chatchila, despite 500 years of mesorah not to. Into which category would you put him? (He does have the support of an uncontested mishnah, an uncontested gemara, Rashi, Rambam, and the Shulchan Aruch.)
“there would surely come a time when the woman who does NOT put on tefillin would be viewed as somehow not frum enough.”
That appears to be the case today regarding women hearing the shofar on Rosh Hashanah.
” So in order to wear Tefillin, a woman would either have to completely disregard this shita”
A whole lot of rishonim disregarded this shita, which has no basis in Chazal.
“Did they share with us the compelling reason to rule as they did?”
Rabbi Harcsztark and Rabbi Lookstein did, in writing.
“Did they even share their opinion with their own Rebbe?”
Rabbi Harcsztark did, and reported that is rebbe, who is also a high school principal, agreed with him.
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef z’tz’l ruled that a woman can read Megillat Esther for a man l’chatchila,”
Women and men have EQUAL achrayus in hearing the Megillah leining, l’chatchilah. Women have NO achrayus to put on tefillin. My understanding is that when one has a chiyuv in a mitzvah requiring both an active and passive participation (i.e. Kiddush, Havdalah), that person can be Motzi another person with the same chiyuv. But it has to be an equal chiyuv in order for this to be so.
Charlie: R’ Ovadia wasn’t reversing any P’sak. He was just saying, as he always does, that he Paskens like the Mechaber over the Rama and the Rambam over Tosfos.
PAA: The Mishnah B’rurah already says that the Guf Naki issue is that women are generally less hygienic than men. I think everyone agrees that this is not true nowadays.
Newhere women aren’t chayiv in shachris or mincha per se they are chayiv in teffilah that could be taking any min in the day and davening wtvr they want shachris tehillim or their own words, and even if they were chayiv in shachris they wouldn’t be held to the time restriction bec again they aren’t chayiv in ma”sg. Plus if they did raven it past zman teffillah it would just be mincha no?
I may have exaggerated on the price of teffilin but they are expensive.
Jewishfem: u make a good point about the broches in the morning I concede to u on that point
Sam2 – Guf Naki has nothing to do with hygiene. It has to do with being careful not to expel gas while wearing Tefillin. What’s more is that there is also a Chiyuv to have your mind on the Tefillin at all times and to be in a state of reverence. This the Mishna Brura states that women are less careful with than men. Therefore, your average woman should refrain from wearing tefillin.
Furthermore, if not for the fact that it is a mitzvah D’orisah, Chazal would have forbade even men from wearing tefillin due to the reverence needed. Originally tefillin was worn all day. Chazal limited it to while davening Shachris.
Being that it is not simple for the average Jewish man to wear tefillin, all the more so women who are not obligated to wear Tefillin.
Those men who entertain the idea of women wearing tefillin do not fully understand the reverence and kedushah of Tefillin. Better to start focusing on our obligation and relationship to wearing Tefillin instead of worrying whether women are allowed to.
“Saying that minhag trumps halachah is reducing Rabbinic Judaism to be a collection of customs.”
You said that, not me. I said the minhag is to follow a specific opinion and this decision unilaterally decided to uproot that custom and follow the other opinion instead.
You cite a psak of Rav Ovadia Z’l. So, I will ask again, are you equating these 2, to Rav Ovadia?
Did said high school principle ask HIS Rebbe for his opinion or did he feel that he is sufficiently great enough to issue a psak that goes against the established custom?
Lastly, can you point to a site that carries the psak of those who permit the girls to don tefillin? I would like to read it, especially their resosning, for myself.
“Women and men have EQUAL achrayus in hearing the Megillah leining, l’chatchilah.”
The Ashkenazic acharonim do not pasken that way.
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