Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman tells Yidden to shun secular education
Home › Forums › Yeshiva / School / College / Education Issues › Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman tells Yidden to shun secular education
- This topic has 61 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 6 months ago by shein.
September 5, 2012 3:56 am at 3:56 am #604779sheinMember
Hagaon HaRav Aharon Leib Shteinman is currently is France and spoke to an audience of 10,000 Yidden. He told them to shun secular education. He concluded his remarks, commenting: “What is education today? Education is Torah! And more Torah! Whoever seeks happiness should teach his son Torah.”September 5, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #895771bubkaParticipant
Which part of France is the godol staying in?September 5, 2012 4:50 am at 4:50 am #895772
and you’ll be dependent on tsedakkah the rest of your life…I suggest we review the daf coming up- berachos 35B- thast speaks exactly to that and concludes that we should work…because we are human beings…September 5, 2012 4:52 am at 4:52 am #895773CuriosityParticipant
Rav Shteinman is Rav Shteinman, but I’m me, and only I can speak for my own personal experiences. Speaking from these personal experiences I feel comfortable saying that its possible to not be on a high enough level to get total sippuk from Torah. A secular education can fill voids. Especially for someone who needs a secular education to support their family.September 5, 2012 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #895774
Mathematics is such ApikorsisSeptember 5, 2012 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #895775icedMember
You don’t need a secular education to learn math. It’s right in the Gemora.September 5, 2012 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #895776
Sometimes I can’t figure out whether to laugh or to cry….September 5, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #895777on the ballParticipant
The Vilna Gaon wrote a mathematics book called Ayil MeshulashSeptember 5, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #895778yitzchokmParticipant
Just trying to understand,
who was that a jab at? Rav Shteinman? Who do you think you are?September 5, 2012 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #895779ToiParticipant
are ROB and zdad once again poking fun at a person whos madreiga they can never hope to approach? yes! im not one to do the whole “im being mocheh” thing, really do whatever you want, but do you understand how daft you appear when opining that you know better then one of the undisputed gedolei hador? EditedSeptember 5, 2012 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #895780September 5, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #895781Rav TuvParticipant
Iced-You don’t need a secular education to learn math. It’s right in the Gemora.
Iced please inform where in the gemara you find trigenometry and calculus?September 5, 2012 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #895782
You have to excuse Shein, he has never heard of Rav Nehurai.
Rav Shteinman did, and was quoting him.
Lo Am HaAretz Chassid.September 5, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #895783
Actually if you had done a basic research on this, this is the real story
He said this in France because in France the government pays religious schools tutions but you must teach a curriculum imposed by the government.
His statement was in response to the curriculum imposed by the French Government (You can teach Torah topics, but you much teach the imposed curriculum)September 5, 2012 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #895784
Iced please inform where in the gemara you find trigenometry and calculus?
Easy. Kesubos 93a. See below (mods please allow the link).
http://www.ma.huji.ac.il/~raumann/pdf/Man%20with%20Three%20Wives.pdfSeptember 5, 2012 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #895786
The real question is, what did r’ shteinman really say to the yidden in france and is that messsage the same one he would tell yidden in england, or belgium or uruguay.
It IS worthwhile to understand what R’ Nehurai is saying, especially since we know that R’ Nehurai is R’ Meir and on the very same daf (kiddushin peh bes amud bes)R’ Meir seems to contradict R’ Nehurai.September 5, 2012 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #895787twistedParticipant
I, less than a garlic peel, and am ho’oretz that I am, make a bracha every morning “baruch hamaychin mitzadei gaver. The secular knowledge I have, the places and things I have experienced all enhance and aid my learning. It just happened to come from a secular education (and a secular L.I. upbringing, but it is a base load of yedios regardless. As I got mostly D,s in college maths, I am still fearful to start a serious try at hilchos kiddush hachodesh. Somewhere in my not quite ordered library is a statement of Rav Kook ztkl” that in essence says: one who lacks one measure of science, will be lacking 10 measures of Torah.September 5, 2012 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #895788
musser zoger +1
I think it’s right near the part where pi = 3.0 and sqrt(2) = 1.40September 5, 2012 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #895790
Calculus was basically invented in the 1500’s by Issac Newton and Liebnetz who combined all ideas previously known into one disciplineSeptember 5, 2012 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #895791
It gets very tiresome to continue hearing the protests of those who want to justify every single word of a Godol. At the risk of being called an ‘apikores” ( I can already hear toi…), the gemoro in berachos makes it very clear that to rely only upon learning Torah DOES NOT WORK! Add to that the words of the mishneh in kiddushin and you have an ironclad instruction by our chachomim that one must work in one’s life. Only people like R’ Shimon ben Yochai (berachos 35B)and R’Nehoroi(kiddushin) can do it but normal people – all us basically- should not rely on other people’s Tseddakah. All the achromin mentioned by Harotzeh…., the Bais Josef and others , allowed us to make our living as klai kodesh but a living one must make.
Today- if one must have secular education for working (and virtually all work today requires that) one cannot just say-don’t study it – because in such a way you condemn people to a life of poverty and living off tsedakkah.September 5, 2012 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #895792yitzchokmParticipant
that’s your opinion,
Rav shteinman begs to differ.September 5, 2012 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #895793September 5, 2012 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #895794cvParticipant
Even if you can learn from Torah how to heal people , today to open the office or get a job in a hospital, you need to get a licence. This means you need to get a secular education. And not only a doctor need a licence to get a job.
Also, if every Jewish man will learn full time and every Jewish wife will work as a morah part-time, every Jewish family will live in poverty. Who will give a Tzedaka if no one works? How morah, who has 5 kids and a husband in a kollel, will pay 5 tuitions and the rest of the bills? If every man learn full time, it means father-in-law also learn and can’t support his son-in-law.
I don’t think Rav Shteinman doesn’t know about this.
I truly believe, that we can’t quote Rav or anybody else without giving all details of the speech and situation in which this speech was given.September 5, 2012 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #895795
It is useless to enter into a discussion with the attitude that you have, thast one can never question any word from a Godol. Sure, Rav Shteineman shelita knows the gemoro- sure he knows the mishne in kiddshin. Hoewever,has he- or any other Godol that espouses his views- give an adequate answer to the gemoro’s point?
Has anyone that you know explain where the chiyuv of teaching one’s son a profession disappear? (The shittah of Rav nehoroi is daas jochid and surely not lehalocho). Has anyone ever give you a good answer how you can avoid the obligations of the kessuboh?
What has changed that suddenly, in the last fifty years, we ignore everything that was halocho till now. Do you have any reasonable answer?September 6, 2012 12:24 am at 12:24 am #895796
Unless one follows every Shita of Rav Shteinmann, you do not have to follow this, there are plenty of Gedolim who feel otherwise Like Rav ShecterSeptember 6, 2012 1:55 am at 1:55 am #895797September 6, 2012 2:25 am at 2:25 am #895798
This thread has gone from the OP who seems to have invented a quote and a position of the Rosh Yeshiva, with others then declaring that the Rav is espousing the opinion of R’ Nehurai, ergo, anyone who questions the OP is a) challenging the Rosh Yeshivas interpretation of a gemara as well as b) challenging the authority of the Rosh Yeshiva.September 6, 2012 2:29 am at 2:29 am #895799
Two words. Buki sruki.September 6, 2012 3:00 am at 3:00 am #895800
Harotze…. stop dreing the th kup, will you. The Shulchan Aruch in O.Ch. 156 paskens that people must work. Biur Halocha says it means min ha’stam unless one has an al pi teva another source of income or one is from the yehidey segulah.
Toi and Harotze…, Rav Kook and Rav J.B. Soloveitchik both knew kol ha’Torah kulah, yet you would not follow them at all. Do you see a double standard here?September 6, 2012 3:02 am at 3:02 am #895801
I saw an article about this in Haaretz so Im fairly certain this was said and done in FranceSeptember 6, 2012 3:04 am at 3:04 am #895802
Plus, I do not know what the Rav actually said there. However, even if he said what is claimed he said…September 6, 2012 3:19 am at 3:19 am #895803
Also, Harotze…, the Israeli Chareidim hold that being in kollel is an absolute chiyuv for every seriously religious Jew.September 6, 2012 3:27 am at 3:27 am #895804
Harotze…, do you suggest they get all frum Jews in France on welfare in order to be in kollel the way it is in Israel? You think the French are going to put up with that??!!?September 6, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #895805
I see, mdd. Simply dismiss Rav Shteinman as “one of those Israeli Chareidim”. Yeah, okay.September 6, 2012 3:44 am at 3:44 am #895806
Yeah, vochindik, simply dismiss Rav J.B.Soloveitchik. Again, I do not know what he really said there.September 6, 2012 4:03 am at 4:03 am #895807
I am not going to add much to the posters like mdd and others who defend the “old’ shittah.
I have all the respect for Rav Shteineman shelita (contrary to what you may think, harotze…) but ,for the life of me, I don’t know where this “new’ shitta comes from. Until the second world war, kollels were rare- for the best of the best only-and most people worked,even in the heart of Lithuania!. As it was for three thousand years. What happened in the past fifty years to changed this?? Did maaseh bereishis suddenly change?? On another post some time ago, I divulged that I have two sons in kollel, but they are not there forever (one has already taken a post) and if they would not be suitable for some kind of ‘klai kodesh’,of course, they would go to work , like other people.
By asserting (as mdd said) that EVERYONE has to be in kollel forever, you actually diminish the importance of kollel and you are not able to feed those who really should be there adequately.
Lastly, it may very well be that Rav Shteineman shelita is being misquoted by the original poster (OP) and all he said that we must learn more Torah and may not have said anything about not engaging in work.September 6, 2012 11:53 am at 11:53 am #895808September 6, 2012 11:54 am at 11:54 am #895809WhiteberryMember
Has anyone established what the Rosh Yeshiva actually said, not some half baked heresay? Until that point, why debate something he may not have said at all.September 6, 2012 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #895810
Yes. It doesn’t mean that they can’t each hold differently. The whole shita of Chassidus & Tznius is based off a Machlokes Amoraim (and maybe even Tannaim IIRC) regarding the floorplan of the Bais Hamikdash. Just because it is old doesn’t mean we can’t still argue about it.September 6, 2012 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #895811
Harotze…, again, as was pointed out by RoB, no one ever provided a satisfactory p’shat as to why those Gemoros no longer apply!September 6, 2012 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #895812
Harotze, don’t you think that Rav Kook and Rav J. B. Soloveitchick knew all of Shas. So how can anybody hold not like them? Think about it!September 6, 2012 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #895813
harotzeh, if your rabbi told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it? I find it pitiable that you find people using their own brains laughable. Do the talmidei chachamim of our generation have more Torah knowledge than you and me? Certainly. Do they have a better understanding of the world around us? Possibly. But even if Moses himself told you to do something, don’t you think G-d gave you a brain to actually use it and decide if that commandment makes any sense? I completely understand and agree with having a rav and relying on his Torah knowledge for decisions, and when the available choices make sense in my own mind I will of course follow the rav’s. But to listen when what he’s saying is completely counter to everything my brain tells me about the way the world works? Why would I treat the tools G-d gave me with such worthlessness? And frankly, I’m not trying to say anything negative about anyone, but since when is ANYONE in our generation an undisputed leader of klal yisroel?
And as for those complaining about hearing half (or maybe false) quote of R’ Steinman, you’re absolutely correct, we don’t know what he really said, but I don’t have a problem arguing with the statement, regardless of whether it was actually said or not.September 6, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #895814September 6, 2012 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #895815
frummy in the tummy writes “But even if Moses himself told you to do something, don’t you think G-d gave you a brain to actually use it and decide if that commandment makes any sense?” Have you heard of ?? ????? The commandment whereby chazal tell us to follow the rabanan ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? I don’t know until which point in time this applies but I would suspect that on Moshe Rabbainu it must, no?September 6, 2012 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #895816
But even if Moses himself told you to do something, don’t you think G-d gave you a brain to actually use it and decide if that commandment makes any sense?
“frummy in the tummy” is absolutely correct. Why listen to a commandment from Moshe Rabbeinu m’sinai if it doesn’t make sense to your own G-d given brain? Use your own brains and decide!
I’m sure tummy doesn’t wear tzitzus.September 6, 2012 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #895817MotsiSheimTovMember
Zahavasdad, you wrote “calculus was basically invented in the 1500’s by Issac Newton and Liebnetz who combined all ideas previously known into one discipline.” You have your dates wrong, as Newton was born in 1642 and Leibniz was born in 1646, but I appreciate someone mentioning those folks.September 7, 2012 12:02 am at 12:02 am #895818
Igros Moshe, Even HaEzer 2:1
“My outlook is based only on knowledge of Torah whose ways are truth, without any influence of secular studies.”
There is a tape available in Seforim stores called “The prohibition to learn in Colleges” (Yiddish), which contains addresses by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L condemning college. Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L also denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title “The Counsel of the Wicked” (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There he reiterates that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah, we should not care so much about monetary wealth, and that learning Torah is what we should be pursuing, not secular stuff. He says in America you do not need college to make a Parnassa, and we should be willing to live on little, not a lot, for the sake of Torah, and that R. Nehuray’s statement in the Gemorah (“I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah”) of abandoning all skills in favor of Torah applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.September 7, 2012 2:56 am at 2:56 am #895819
Vochindick, we know Rav Moshe held like that, the question is that it’s shvere.
Harotze…, sometimes the kashah from an ofene Gemorah is very,very shtark!Get it?!?September 7, 2012 3:54 am at 3:54 am #895820write or wrongParticipant
I will not dispute Rav Shteinman. Secular education includes alot of anti-Jewish ideas (ie in science, psychology etc). Yes, our kids should learn Torah. However, many kids are coming out of the hareidi system HATING to learn, bc they are studying and studying and studying long hours instead of being children. At least the secular system knows how much learning a child can tolerate, and when it’s just too much..September 7, 2012 3:54 am at 3:54 am #895821
MDD: Maybe shtark, not a pircha. Have you ever had a “shtarka” kasha that when you discussed it with someone else suddenly had a reasonable, if not obvious answer? I suspect that almost any ben torah has. Tough then that your kasha should be a pircha on the shitoh of anashim gedolim. ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ????? ??????……..
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.